Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

Sos neil armstrong.........

But you are NOT public at this forum. You are hiding behind a series of masks and a multitude of stories.

Contrast Kranz, who if this conversation were to take place would be posting under his own name. Or Jay for that matter, who has an easily discoverable public identity.

The point being not that the discussion takes place in public, but that the persons involved in the discussion make themselves public. It's the difference between a cowardly anonymous attack, and meeting someone face-to-face.

SOS NEIL ARMSTRONG.........

I have a great idea nomuse. Why don't you do this. Why don't you write to Neil Armstrong. Send him an SOS. Inform Neil that the guy/"kook" who wrote the 20 page letter to him last spring that included contact information details has been mopping the lunar floor with the commander himself and cohorts for the last 8 months. Inform Neil nomuse that said well known Armstrong/Aldrin/others direct correspondent and antagonist now seems to be on the verge of blowing the ever loving doors off the whole Apollo farce as none of the JREF Apollo apologists know a dang thing about activation energy, Free Energy or the role of catalysts in determining whether or not any given reaction proceeds under any given set of circumstances. In short, they know almost nothing about chemistry period. WHOOPS!!!!!

(I think we found a weakness!!!! Time to pile on !!!!!)

At this point nomuse, it would seem this is your team's best chance. On second thought, that might not work out so well, betcha' Armstrong don't know ding dang diddley squat about chemistry either.

Boy hasn't his gotten interesting.......?.......?

Neil, you out there? Reading this ????????? How 'bout you Neil, know the activation energy for the Teflon Combustion reaction????????????

 

[Patrick1000]

Requiem for a Perptrator

Not to pile on, but it is high time someone took Alan Shepard down once and for all.

Shepard claimed he could not "fly" because he was diagnosed with Meniere's Disease. In his book MOON SHOT, Shepard claimed that he was cured by way of a surgical procedure that facilitated endolymph drainage.

It is well known that such procedures are not efficacious. If they afford any benefit at all it is a placebo benefit.

Shepard as astronaut was a fraud, and his otolaryngologist was a quack, not to mention the NASA docs are quacks as well, those who certified Shepard's Meniere's as cured post this bogus procedure.

 

[Agatha]

I see two motions here, that I will second:

All those in favor of Patrick supplying the requested information regarding PTFE and liquid O2 before he changes the subject again, please say "aye".

Aye.

Aye.

All those that believe that Patrick should agree to publicly confront Kranz, Liebergott, et al for attribution, please say "aye".

Aye.

Aye.

Time to put up Patrick, and face those you accuse.

 

[Patrick1000]

There is no mention of the combustion fuel, or very little....

No, you flat-out lied and changed your story. You said -- and emhasized -- that there was no popular mention of the combustion fuel. When one was easily provided, you failed to acknowledge it. Then when pressed you grudgingly noted it and other sources, but then disavowed ever having made the original claim.

You lied, and for the second time that day. You lie easily and habitually about who you are, what arguments you've previously made, and what your sources say. You continue today in much of the same deceptive behavior that got you banned at BAUT and Apollohoax, showing no remorse or intellectual conscience. Your arguments stem from systematic dishonesty.

And those dishonest arguments flatly accuse people of large scale fraud. You categorically decline to level those accusations in person and give your victims the satisfaction of facing their accuser. Based on cherry-picked quotes here and offhand comments there and recollections made decades after the fact, you point your finger at these accomplished men and yell "perp!" when the evidence of your own hypocritical and chronic dishonesty need look no farther than this thread alone.

There is very little mention of the combustion fuel, very very little....Apart from the Lovell book which I believe was published in 1995, I haven't come across any popular mention of the Teflon burning, aluminum burning business.

That is not to say references featuring said mentionings of Teflon/aluminum burning are nonexistent, but they certainly are rare. Wouldn't you think Ron Howard would put it in his movie, or Tom Hanks in his HBO series?

My point is an excellent one as a matter of fact Jay. I more than stand by it.

Lying by the way has to do with intentionally misleading. This is what the Apollo Program perpetrators engaged in. I certainly make mistakes, but I am not intentionally misleading anyone. I am entitled to interpret facts the way I want to. You may agree or disagree with my interpretation Jay. That does not translate to my intentionally misleading you.



With respect to voicing your own opinion with regard to this important point of dispute, apart from the Lovell book, are you able to cite two non technical/popular presentations of the Apollo 13 story in which Teflon/aluminum combustion is discussed? I can easily cite a half a dozen popular tales of the Apollo 13 staged drama in which there is absolutely no mention of anything at all burning, apart from someone saying or writing there was a "fire" or an "explosion". My contention is that this is LYING in that it is intentionally misleading. That is my interpretation of this FACT about most popular accounts. Not that the authors of these accounts are themselves lying. These popular account authors may very well be scientifically naive. But NASA never worked/works to provide the details regarding the alleged fire in O2 tank number two. They allow generic statements about oxygen tank explosions and fires to be perpetuated. As I investigate this matter more I suspect I will find NASA's reason for this to be rather nefarious, hard to imagine otherwise given the agency's track record.

The point about the Telfon thing with respect to popular Apollo 13 staged drama accounts is that it is my contention that leaving it out, not mentioning it, is the rule rather than the exception. It is like Gene Kranz's reference to the "LM as lifeboat" 15 minutes into the staged Apollo 13 drama. Most of the time that is left out. It was left out of Lovell's book, left out without dots even to indicate something was missing.

I stand by all of my points Jay, every single one of them. They are strong, every point, very strong indeed. My confidence remains high, as high as the stars.

 

[Patrick1000]

What would those questions be Tomblvd?

There are a number of questions waiting to be answered Patrick. Why don't you answer them before changing the subject?

What would those questions be Tomblvd?

1) What is the activation energy for the combustion of Teflon.

2) What is the free energy of the Teflon combustion reaction?

3) What catalysts were present if any for the reaction in the Apollo 13 SM O2 tank number two?

There are a half dozen more important questions, but let's start with these.

I believe those are the questions you are interested in Tomblvd. They are the questions I would like answers to. They would be questions for the NASA boys to answer of course. I have been looking for their answers and have yet to find them.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, how curious is that??????????

 

[Loss Leader]

Mr. Kranz is more than a liar.......

He is party to an act of treason.....
...
I guess once this all comes out they'll say it was a matter of national security. But for my money, it is treason, plain and simple....

I want my money back!!!!!

Please add "treason" to the list of concepts Patrick does not understand.

 

[theprestige]

I see two motions here, that I will second:

All those in favor of Patrick supplying the requested information regarding PTFE and liquid O2 before he changes the subject again, please say "aye".

All those that believe that Patrick should agree to publicly confront Kranz, Liebergott, et al for attribution, please say "aye".

Aye aye.

 

[AdMan]

Just to be explicit Jay so I need not repeat myself...

You keep making this point and I have responded already several times, but just to really emphasize the truth in this matter given your strong language here in this particular post of yours, I have contacted my victims DIRECTL. Some have, and some have not chosen to respond and the details of those communications will remain private as mentioned previously.


I am happy to debate anyone.

Again, if you find me a laughingstock, why are you wasting your time calling me one?

Oh, please, Patrick1000/fattydash/Dr.Tea/totallycomplexdude/etc....

No one is buying your crap.

We can all see that you are simply refusing to face those you are accusing of.

It is easy to claim you have "written letters" and other such BS.

Jay has offered to put you in direct contact with those you call "perps".

Yet you refuse to take up this offer. Why do you do so, if you apparently are so absolutely sure of your supposed findings? It would make you world famous, if your claims had some truth.

Time to PUT UP OR SHUT UP, Patrick.

That you won't do either is very telling.

Do your patients know how much you lie?

 

[nomuse]

Because I wrote a 20 page letter to Neil Armstrong 8 months ago ......Been there, done that. I have written to plenty of the other perps as well. Next question Gorgonian.......

Was this before or after your trip to Shanghai?

You've given no reason for anyone on this thread to trust your word -- and good reason to doubt it is any good.

 

[nomuse]

SOS NEIL ARMSTRONG.........

I have a great idea nomuse. Why don't you do this. Why don't you write to Neil Armstrong. Send him an SOS. Inform Neil that the guy/"kook" who wrote the 20 page letter to him last spring that included contact information details has been mopping the lunar floor with the commander himself and cohorts for the last 8 months. Inform Neil nomuse that said well known Armstrong/Aldrin/others direct correspondent and antagonist now seems to be on the verge of blowing the ever loving doors off the whole Apollo farce as none of the JREF Apollo apologists know a dang thing about activation energy, Free Energy or the role of catalysts in determining whether or not any given reaction proceeds under any given set of circumstances. In short, they know almost nothing about chemistry period. WHOOPS!!!!!

(I think we found a weakness!!!! Time to pile on !!!!!)

At this point nomuse, it would seem this is your team's best chance. On second thought, that might not work out so well, betcha' Armstrong don't know ding dang diddley squat about chemistry either.

Boy hasn't his gotten interesting.......?.......?

Neil, you out there? Reading this ????????? How 'bout you Neil, know the activation energy for the Teflon Combustion reaction????????????

It isn't my dog, Patrick, and it is such a mangy mutt I can truthfully say I am glad of it.

YOU are the one who have accused other men from behind the safety barrier of anonymity. YOU are the one who has issued countless taunts, yet will not show his face to those he taunts. YOU are the one that believes your arguments add up to anything more than a rambling, semi-coherent screed based on nothing more than emotion, intuition about subjects you know nothing about, and the arrogant replacement of reality with your naive expectations for it.

In the opinion of every other person reading this thread, you have managed to prove only your failure to grasp a wide variety of subjects at anything resembling the necessary detail. No employee of NASA has anything to fear from your unfounded attacks.

Make this my second "Aye" as well. I am tired of Patrick's endless attacks on the integrity of those not here to defend themselves. I'd like to see him put out or shut up.

Or perhaps he could learn how to present his case without the editorializing. It would reduce the walls of text and might even, eventually, produce something resembling readable copy.

 

[Patrick1000]

I believe I have emphasized enought that I have written to them directly...

Aye & Aye.
Back up your words & face those you libel. Anything less and you show that you do not truly believe the garbage you spew.

I believe I have emphasized enough that I have written to the perpetrators directly...

It's not libel by the way Ravenwood, far from it. The influenza point alone was and is enough to sink the whole lot of them.

 

[Patrick1000]

Kranz betrayed his country, that is treason.....

Please add "treason" to the list of concepts Patrick does not understand.

Kranz betrayed his country, that is treason.....

Kranz's acts are actually all the more treasonous than those associated with the simple garden variety betrayal of one's country. Being a party to this type of deception, moon landing fraud, is an act of treason against all of humanity, nothing less.

 

[SUSpilot]

Now that I have addressed these rather ridiculous concerns about my fear of direct confrontation with fraudulent Apollo Program principals, not to mention the nonsense about the Teflon issue which I'll continue to investigate as obviously my colleagues here are indeed dependent on me, themselves lacking the tools, relevant background/training, I'd like to introduce a new subject, something I have been investigating for several months now.

In the late 1950s and early 60s, the Air Force was developing a space shuttle like reconnaissance glider, bomber called the Dyna-Soar. The program was highly developed and said to have been canceled in the early 1960s.

Of course nothing could have been further from the truth. Witness the Space Shuttle, nothing other than a Dyna-Soar.

Another example of NASA's/Air Force's Overt Coverts.

You haven't addressed a thing. You publicly accuse people from the anonymity of a forum on the Internet. This point has been made before.

You are being afforded a golden opportunity to debate these people in public. You have said that you would tear them to shreds. I suggest you stand by your convictions and do so, for attribution.

But, then, you won't. And we all know why.

 

[sts60]

There's no cheaper brand of coward than an "Internet tough guy".

Aye.

 

[Patrick1000]

Oh really, the hard evidence supports Apollo?

The hard evidence has been there all along and it fully supports Apollo. You have simply continually misrepresented and misunderstood that evidence to support your wild theories, which have been shot down time and again. When are you going to admit you the original claims you made about Teflon, Oxygen, and the lifeboat scenario were wrong? When are you going to take up the offer to confront those you accuse of fraud? Please spare us another pointless demonstration of your lack of understanding of engineering and address those issues.

Oh really, the hard evidence supports Apollo Garrison? Is that so?

Let's take a look at the "hard evidence" with regard to the Teflon combustion issue. In the REPORT OF THE APOLLO 13 REVIEW BOARD, CHAPTER 4, "INITIATION", it says that the energy available from the short circuit was "probably" 10 to 20 joules. The report goes on to say that tests conducted showed this energy was more than adequate to ignite Teflon of the type in the Apollo O2 tank. No figure for the reaction's activation energy is provided. I am not kidding......Absolutely not kidding.....

In the following section on PROPAGATION OF COMBUSTION, the statement is made that there was more than enough Teflon in the tank to account for the recorded pressure and temperature increases. Of course in addition to many other specific questions I'd like the answer to, one that pops to mind immediately is, "So how much Teflon exactly was there?" If that information is available, it is not in this report. At least I have not found it. I am not kidding. I cannot find it in this "Official Report".

Need I go on with this ridiculous thing? This report is a joke.....

Of course this does not mean that "Teflon" of some type cannot be coaxed into burning under some circumstance. However, it does mean that the clowns that wrote up this report don't want anyone asking the most important/relevant questions about the whole ridiculous farce....., and God forbid try to independently repeat NASA's determination of Teflon combustion's activation energy and repeat other experiments NASA would have been expected to have done as well.

That's about as soft as evidence can get for something as important as this allegedly was Garrison. Good luck defending these jokers.......

 

[Patrick1000]

Here's another "mistake" for you to mull over Garrison.,...

How many times have you said that about something? And how often has anyone agreed with you?

You have outstanding questions about Teflon, Oxygen, and meeting those you've accused of perpetrating a hoax among many others, please concentrate on those before adding any more mistakes.

Here's another "mistake" for you to mull over Garrison.,...

So the APOLLO 13 REVIEW BOARD was supposed to have conducted this painstaking investigation of this "accident". Where is Liebergot's accounting of what happened in all of this? He was the closest one to the problem, apart from the astronauts. I see nothing at all with regard to the ECCOM's input/interpretation of events. Amazing, literally amazing..... Nothing like making up a report without testimony from an accident's principals.

 

[Patrick1000]

I did finally find some documentation.

Here;

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700076776_1970076776.pdf

I did find some documentation of the alleged total amount of Teflon in O2 Tank Two, 1.1 lbs, according to NASA 2,400 BTU worth of energy available on burning.

That said, my other criticisms of the report as above stand and more will follow.

 

[Loss Leader]

Kranz betrayed his country, that is treason.....

Kranz's acts are actually all the more treasonous than those associated with the simple garden variety betrayal of one's country. Being a party to this type of deception, moon landing fraud, is an act of treason against all of humanity, nothing less.

As said before, please be sure to add "treason" to the long list of concepts with which Patrick is laughably unfamiliar. I will be along presently with the official seal and red wax from the University of Georgia School of Journalism to present the certificate.

 

[Patrick1000]

The Apollo 13 Review Board Report

Take a look at the Cortright Commission Report for yourselves.

http://history.nasa.gov/ap13rb/ap13index.htm

At this point in time, I see no reason whatsoever to view this report as anywhere near complete and therefore the report should not as it currently stands be viewed as authoritative.

Specifically, the report claims that 10 to 20 joules of energy was adequate to initiate the Teflon's/and or aluminum's burning. I see no reason to accept that as factual given the report's statement is not supported by any quantitative data, a specific activation energy determination as previously mentioned, not to mention other experimental details which should have been provided in a report purported to be of such critical value to Apollo's safety and the continuance of our manned space programs.

The Cortright Commission Report does make reference to "tests" which were done that support the claim of 10-20 joules being adequate to initiate the Teflon combustion reaction. However, no specifics are given with regard to those tests so referenced. No details were/are provided in terms of what those tests entailed exactly.

As such, at this point in time, I would view these Cortright Commission Studies as tests which are not practically repeatable.

Perhaps with further investigation I will turn up something from NASA that is more convincing, but at this juncture, I find myself underwhelmed and very much unimpressed with NASA's presentation. There is absolutely nothing they have presented apart from a stark statement which is unsupported by any reference to experimental details. They suggest the alleged fire could have started under the alleged circumstances, but they provide no details with regard to the experiments they claimed to have done demonstrating such may have in fact been the case.

This report as presented in its present form is wholly substandard and lacks merit to say the least.

It might be useful as fireplace kindling itself, but not for anything more than that.

 

[Patrick1000]

My personal letters were/are far from anonymous....

You haven't addressed a thing. You publicly accuse people from the anonymity of a forum on the Internet. This point has been made before.

You are being afforded a golden opportunity to debate these people in public. You have said that you would tear them to shreds. I suggest you stand by your convictions and do so, for attribution.

But, then, you won't. And we all know why.

My personal letters were/are far from anonymous....

Keep your motor running by the way SUSpilot. If Jay has that much pull I may take him up on the offer at some point.