High energy explosvies and tertiary blast waves

[Liberty]

There seems to be alot of confusion in the debunking community, regarding the blast effects of explosives...

In another thread it was said that, quote:

beachnut wrote: If she was exposed to a blast wave she would be dead. You failed again. You don't know anything about explosives as you google, quote-mine, and cherry-pick junk to match your explosives delusion.

NoahFence wrote: I can't imagine what goes through a person's melon to have them actually imply that an explosive can blast steel but not injure a human being. It's big enough to blast a builidng, but small enough not to hurt a person. Un friggin believable. Why lie? What's the point?

Edx wrote: I wish you knew how embarrasingly wrong you are. If you have tertiary blast injuries you WILL have primary blast injuries as well.

triforcharity wrote: You claim that someone could have suffered other injuries like burns and broken bones, but not suffer any damage to the air filled organs of their bodies. This is called unsubstantiated bull ****.

Scott Sommers wrote: Does Liberty mean by this that he or she gets to make up anything he or she wants as evidence? And then we have to believe it? Come on dude, get a life here. All that making up stuff like this does is discredit you.

aggle-rithm wrote: Can you explain how a high-explosive blast could cause ONLY tertiary blast injuries in the people around it? I'm aware that it's possible that some people would suffer this type of injury, but ONLY this type of injury?. Please, enlighten us about the laws of physics. This might be a good time to abandon the thread, Liberty. Perhaps start another one and pretend that you haven't been totally schooled here.

ElMondoHummus wrote: This is outright wrong. For starters, barotraumatic injury is "physical damage to body tissues caused by a difference in pressure between an air space inside or beside the body and the surrounding fluid". So yes, barotrauma as well as other secondary, tertiary, and quandenary effects are noted indicators of patient exposure to explosions. It is incorrect to assert otherwise.

Congratulations to ElMondoHummus!, he got one thing right, and he doesnt even know it!...

As i said, you can escape a demoliton charge blast without any primary blast injuries, even if you were picked up in the air by the blast wave. The overpressure waves from a primary blast effect has nothing to do with the tertiary blast waves, you can easily escape the overpressure waves and only be struck by the tertiary blast wave, when you are dealing with high energy explosvies.

SECRAB, who are experts in the blast effects of explosvies and energetic materials agress:

My question:

"My argument was that you can survive a blast that is close enough to pick you up in the air and throw you, with minor injuries. High-energy explosions, lets say a strategic placed demolition charge inside a building, the result from an individual being thrown by the tertiary blast wave from this charge, could from my understanding be a simple contusion, you could escape without any primary blast injuries. Since tertiary effects result from the bulk flow of gas away from the explosion and often occur when the victim is in close proximity to the explosion. However, these injuries can take place relatively far from the point of detonation if the victim is located in the path of gases venting from a structure, such as a doorway, window, or hatch. Likewise, if the patient is in the alley, magnification of the blast wind may occur because of the configuration of the buildings...

Am i correct, or am i wrong, about the possibility of escaping this blast wave without any primary blast injuries, even if you where picked up in the air by the blast wave?. Wouldn't it be very likely in a large building, where you have good distance between the explosvies and the victim, that you could escape the overpressure waves and only be struck by the tertiary blast wave?"

Answer:

You are basically right. The human body is quite resilient to air shock waves. The most sensitive components are ear drums and hearing apparatus which can be impaired after being loaded with approximately 35 kPa of shock pressure (long durations, but individual variations will occur up and down). The next primary injury picture affects lungs and other gas-filled organs, including intestines, and the threshold of injury will be a good deal higher, about 100 kPa, and the limit of serious injury will, typically, be at about 250 kPa. For short durations the pressures required will go up.

Secondary damage is considered to be that caused by objects accelerated by the shock wave and gas flow, which will hit the victim. Tertiary injuries are those caused by the whole body being thrown by the explosion and subsequently impacting the ground or another solid object. And as you say, such injury may occur without a person suffering from primary shock wave injury, in connection with a detonation or other explosion. However, throws of this type preferably occur at very high explosive loads, because otherwise the other mechanisms will dominate. What actually happens in a tertiary injury situation is that a relatively low load with a long duration, which will accelerate the body but not cause primary injury, will be transformed into a much higher load with shorter duration when the body hits something solid, hence causing conventional blunt trauma of similar kind that which will occur in, for instance. a car crash!

Explosives expert and world-renowned energetic materials expert Jimmie Oxley also agress:

"You are correct about the possibility of escape and about the effect of walls"

Here we have a example of a pretty powerful explosion, that didnt cause any serious injuries to one of the victims:

"I still don't know what exploded or how it exploded or why. But we ended up flying back 10 to 15 feet," said Chad Swayze. Swayze and three other firefighters were thrown back by the explosion. They experienced a range of injuries but survived. "Time slowed down at that second. I started to think about everything I had done in my life - my experiences at different fires," said Swayze. He managed to escape without major injuries on Monday. He said his left leg took the brunt of the impact, along with his left elbow and left arm. Afterwards, he was left with a stiff back, stiff neck and bruising, said Swayze. Two other firefighters suffered concussions."

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...re_explosion_120103/20120103?hub=WinnipegHome

So much for your "knowledge" of explosives. Try not falling for groupthink next time guys...

Now lets look at some testimonies that could be dealing with high energy explosvies:

• Barry Jennings:

"When I made it to the 6th floor, and there was an explosion, the explosion was beneath me. Keep in mind now it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out. So when the explosion happened, it blew us back. I'm thinking I'm standing on the landing, I'm actually holding on to a pole above us. And I had to climb back up. Because Hess is yelling, "What do we do now?" I said, "There's only one thing we can do, and it's go back up."

Both buildings were still standing. Keep in mind, I told you the Fire Department came and left. They came twice. Why? Because Building Tower 1 fell, then Tower 2 fell. And then when they came back, they came back with [inaudible] to get me the hell out of there. I was trapped in there for several hours. I was trapped in there when both buildings came down. All this time, I'm hearing all kinds of explosions. All this time, I'm hearing explosions.

When they finally got to us, and they took us down to what they call the "lobby," because I asked them, I said when we got down there, I said, "Where are we?" He said, "This was the lobby." And I said, "You gotta be kidding me." It was total ruins. Total ruins. Now keep in mind, when I came in there, the lobby had nice escalators. It was a huge lobby. And for me to see what I saw, it was unbelievable.

It looked like King Kong had came through it and stepped on it, it was so destroyed, I didn’t know where I was. So destroyed that they had to take me out through a hole in the wall.

And the firefighter that took us down kept saying, "Do not look down." And I kept saying, "Why?" He said, "Do not look down." And we were stepping over people. And you know, you can feel when you're stepping over people...."

They took us out through a hole in the wall and this big giant police officer came to me. And he says, "You have to run!" I said, "I can't run. My knees are swollen." He said, "You'll have to get on your knees and crawl then.” He said, “Because we have reports of more explosions."

Barry Jennings is a very good witness. There is no other logical reason, as to why the firefighters would run away from the rescue operation, besides what Jennigs said, that the other two towers collapsed, so then the explosions cannot be explained by the towers collapsing... I dont doubt that the jet fuel caused some of the damage in the lobby in the towers, but in WTC 7 we had no jet fuel explosion.

It would be impossible not to recognise the lobby in WTC 7 a little more then an houre before Jennings was rescured, as we can see in this video below, and the firemen would never have told Jennings that quote: "This was the lobby" and they wouldnt haft to exit the lobby trough a hole in the wall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bADURTAvtgk

The total destruction of the lobby of WTC 7, the walls, escelators, lobby doors, everything beeing destroyed, is very strong evidence of high energy explosives. That the cop wanted him to RUN from the building, very strongly indicates that MORE explosions were expected, the reports the police got and mentioned to Jennings, obviously was reports of the explosions that destroyed the lobby and killed fire and policemen, this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

• Davide Dukcevich, forbes.com, 09.11.01:

"An hour later, the tower collapsed, following what eyewitnesses describe as a series of 15 explosions inside the building. Half an hour after that, the second tower fell, leaving southern Manhattan covered in a pall of smoke and dust."

15 propane cylinder explosions at the same time right before the collapse?. Sounds credible!...

• Captain Karin Deshore:

“Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building."

It is just ridiculous trying to explain this with something like Electric Transformer explosions, when she clearly states that the flashes and explosions where going up and down and all around the bulding. If it was only one flash at ONE location i would agree, but this was flashes and explosions on multiple locations all going off at almost the same time.

• Sue Keane:

“It sounded like bombs going off." “There was another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs.. I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me.. There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street"

.

Those propane cylinder explosions where going on all day apparently?. Shock pressure caused by a gas detonation yields a much lower peak than a high explosive – typically 2 MPa relative to up to 2-3x10^4 MPa for high explosives, which means that a gas explosion will only cause damage to less resistant structures, such as interior walls, brick walls, glass windows etc. You will only be thrown in the air if you are very close, and you will have good protection against the blast from a distance with walls between you and the explosion. Oxygen needed for an good explosion must be provided by ambient air, and the fuel must mix well with the air, preferably in a stoichiometric mixture.

• Darryl:

"I was just standing there, ya know... we were watching the building [WTC 7] actually 'cuz it was on fire... the bottom floors of the building were on fire and... we heard this sound that sounded like a clap of thunder... turned around - we were shocked to see that the building was... well it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building and the windows all busted out... it was horrifying... about a second later the bottom floor caved out and the building followed after that..."

Strong indication of demolition.

• Colby Buzzell:

"I was standing on a nearby street corner, staring at the towers, taking it all in, when all of the sudden, I heard this loud thunderous boom. It was the loudest dark noise I have ever heard before in my entire f****ng life. It seemed like 3 long seconds of thunder. I can’t describe how loud and creepy it sounded. And then all of the sudden it sounded like another bomb just exploded. BooooM!!! It was so loud that a couple nearby windows exploded all around me."

Strong indication of high energy explosvies.

• Genelle Guzman McMillan:

"On the 13th-floor landing, McMillan stopped. Her 2-inch heels seemed like 10-foot stilts. McMillan reached down to pull them off. She would walk the rest of the way barefoot. She never took a step. McMillan heard a rumble. "A big explosion," she now calls it. The wall I was facing just opened up, and it threw me on the other side," she says"

Strong indication of the blast effect of high energy explosvies:

• Louie Cacchioli

"After entering the north tower lobby and seeing elevator doors completely blown out and people being hit with debris, asked himself: "How could this be happening so quickly if a plane hit way above"? After he reached the 24th floor, he and another fireman "heard this huge explosion that sounded like a bomb [and] knocked off the lights and stalled the elevator." After they pried themselves out of the elevator, "another huge explosion like the first one hits. This one hits about two minutes later... and I'm thinking, "Oh. My God, these bastards put bombs in here like they did in 1993!"

Evidence of multiple powerful explosions in close time frames, we have alot of witnesses like this.

• Jody Bell:

You start to hear this rumble. You hear this rumble. Everything is shaking. Now I'm like, what the hell could that be. I'm thinking we're going to get bombed. This is an air raid. You hear this thunder, this rumbling. Then you see the building start to come down.

• Bradley Mann:

"Shortly before the first tower came down, I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere. People started running."

Strong indication of demolition.

• Keith Murphy:

"At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you. It sounded like nothing I had ever heard in my life, but it didn't sound good. All of a sudden I could feel the floor started to shake and sway. We were being thrown like literally off our feet, side to side, getting banged around and then a tremendous wind starting to happen. It probably lasted maybe 15 seconds, 10 to 15 seconds. It seemed like a hurricane force wind. It would blow you off your feet and smoke and debris and more things started falling".

Strong indication of high energy explosvies.

So we have evidence of:

- The ground shaking before the collapse
- Windows far away being blown out by the explosions
- The lobby of WTC 7 being totally destroyed
- Powerful force winds and heavy shaking of floors/building
- People being thrown by explosions at different times
- Orange flashes all around the building going up and down on different locations together with explosvie sound
- Shockwaves visible to the eye going through the building before the collapse
- Multiple explosions right before the collapse
- Powerful squibs going trought the steel at the corner of the building (as shown by David Chandler).
- Ejection speed of the squibs from the towers also matches the speeds recorded for ejections caused by explosives
- Squibs and objects are being ejected before the tower begins to collapse
- Speed of the collapse etc

So yes, it is correct to state that we can see all the characteristics of high energy explosives. It is incorrect to assert otherwise.

If explosives were used, we would expect the evidence to be destroyed and no real inspection being allowed, this was the case on 911. As i pointed out earlier, i suppose that the special forces guys who were experts in explosive-ordnance neutralization, that together with the Luchese crime family, helped out at ground zero, both deployed by the same company, is nothing to worry about... And i guess that the evidence that was stolen from Fresh Kills landfill with the approval and coordination of FBI agents, is nothing to worry about, considering FBIs criminal history of manufacturing evidence in multiple cases, always trust government agencies with a criminal record!. The allegations of steel from Ground Zero being illegally diverted to a New Jersey transfer station, was never inveistgated by the 9/11 comission, but i guess that theft of evidence is nothing worth investigating...

Lets ignore that most of the steel from the upper floors was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site. That the evidence was shipped away, and melted down for reuse BEFORE it was inspected, as reported by the New york times, will of course not bother anyone who dont give to cents about the prober handling of the evidence of a crime scene. Anyone else, that dont like corrupt officials destroying a legal case in an investigation, will be honest and point out what James Quintiere, Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division, points out: "A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have"...

 

[NoahFence]

The overpressure waves from a primary blast effect has nothing to do with the tertiary blast waves,

You have no idea what you're talking about.

What the $(*@# is a tertiary blast wave?? All discussion by rational people on JREF that had the word "tertiary" in it was in reference to injuries.

Slow down, learn to read, try again.

 

[DGM]

There seems to be alot of confusion in the debunking community, regarding the blast effects of explosives...

No, just your poor understanding. Nice work on the "word salad" though.

 

[000063]

The total destruction of the lobby of WTC 7, the walls, escelators, lobby doors, everything beeing destroyed, is very strong evidence of high energy explosives.

Incorrect.

That the cop wanted him to RUN from the building, very strongly indicates that MORE explosions were expected, the reports the police got and mentioned to Jennings, obviously was reports of the explosions that destroyed the lobby and killed fire and policemen, this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

Or that he wanted him to get away from a dangerous, unstable building.

These all ignore the fact that even a single explosive charge would be audible across Manhattan. We're talking louder than rock concert loud.

And, once again, conflating "explosions" with "explosives". The presence of the former does not necessarily indicate the presence of the latter.

Also, did the conspirators know 7 would be hit by debris or not? Because without that debris to set the building on fire, they'd have no excuse for the collapse. The only way they could've known was if they aimed the debris from the North Tower at WTC 7, which is impossible. The slightest miscalculation could cause some of the explosives to be disrupted and fail. It also means you have to prove WTC 1 and 2 were CDs before moving on to 7. It's like accusing a defendant of disposing of a murder weapon before proving he actually committed the murder.

If they didn't know, then why would they plant explosives in the building? Come to think, when did they do so?

So you either have an impossible demolition of WTC 1/2, or the bad guys planting explosives in WTC 7 for no reason.

 

[Liberty]

NoahFence: You dont like being proved wrong?... Why do you make stuff up when you dont know anything about explosvies?. I was right all the time, calling me a lier for stating a simple fact about explosvies. Shame on you....

"All discussion by rational people on JREF that had the word "tertiary" in it was in reference to injuries."

Just incredible... You will soon win the price for the most dishonest debunker on the planet....

 

[Liberty]

000063: If you think you will get a response to that post, try again...

 

[sheeplesnshills]

000063: If you think you will get a response to that post, try again...

So why then do you expect a response to your wall of text?

 

[Edx]

Liberty,

All you have done is trott out the usual truther claims of explosions, we already know about those, our comments apply exactly the same as they did last time. You have still failed to explain what a tertiary blast wave is and how it can injure people in terms of broken bones and yet not damage their soft inner tissue like ear drums and lungs. Why is it primary blast injuries are common in every other bombing and yet entirely absent on 911, despite you claim bombs are going off all over the place so powerful they are able to destroy heavy steel?

Ever plan on doing that?

You should have ignored the whole situation, in making this OP you've made all this a lot more embarrassing for yourself.

 

[R.Mackey]

The major problem with the wall-o'-text strawman argument is that the only signs of an explosion being considered here are a few people being blown a few feet.

It is possible, under unusual and contrived circumstances, for someone to be blown but otherwise unharmed by a large explosive -- and here, large is very large. But if you explode such a large explosive inside a heavily occupied building, then surely for every one who was "blown," there would be others who suffered barotrauma and shrapnel injuries. Many others. But there weren't. The NIST survivor study makes this point very clear.

Indeed, we have individuals who were so close to the explosion in question that they were actually burned by the fireball, yet still suffered no signs of pressure or kinetic injury.

Why don't you run those little factoids past your hand-selected experts and see if that changes their opinion?

 

[NoahFence]

NoahFence: You dont like being proved wrong?... Why do you make stuff up when you dont know anything about explosvies?. I was right all the time, calling me a lier for stating a simple fact about explosvies. Shame on you....

"All discussion by rational people on JREF that had the word "tertiary" in it was in reference to injuries."

Just incredible... You will soon win the price for the most dishonest debunker on the planet....

So you'll be linking to a post where a person besides you refers to tertiary blast waves?


Somehow I find that unlikely.

 

[NoahFence]

I also notice that you failed to mention to your SEACRABS that the explosion this person was able to walk away from ALSO projected massive steel beams over 600'.

You don't think that was relevant information?

 

[Sabretooth]

ter·tia·ry
adj \ˈtər-shē-ˌer-ē, -shə-rē\
Definition of TERTIARY

a : of third rank, importance, or value

So what exactly is a "tertiary blast wave"?

 

[LSSBB]

So what exactly is a "tertiary blast wave"?

I think that's the one that kills the bad guy's henchman, when Tom Cruise survives the primary blast.

 

[Liberty]

So why then do you expect a response to your wall of text?

They guy ignores the facts in an arrogant way and comes to wrong conclusions. He knows the answers to every question if he stops the political games and throws his hobby of defending the official story out the window. I dont got time for answering simple minded questions like that, it will only be followed by more simple minded questions that ignores the facts.

Edx:

"You should have ignored the whole situation, in making this OP you've made all this a lot more embarrassing for yourself."

I just proved you wrong, and you cant admit it?. Every post you make, that denies that you are wrong, is a troll post. Every high energy explosives expert in the world agress with me, you and your hobby debunker buddys are all victims of groupthink...

R.Mackey:

"The major problem with the wall-o'-text strawman argument is that the only signs of an explosion being considered here are a few people being blown a few feet."

You people really are a strange bunch, how can you type something like that, after reading my post... Who are you guys?, really?....

R.Mackey:

"there would be others who suffered barotrauma and shrapnel injuries. Many others. But there weren't"

Wrong, alot of people died in the towers and never escaped, you cant say that the people that escaped should have those bad injuries, they obviously shouldn't if they werent very close to the explosvies, why they should have been close to the explosvies you havent demonstrated, and you will not demonstrate it, because you can't. You argument is as flawed as it can be. i'm getting tired of answering this simple minded nonsens.

R.Mackey:

"Indeed, we have individuals who were so close to the explosion in question that they were actually burned by the fireball, yet still suffered no signs of pressure or kinetic injury"

I dont claim that anybody were burned by any fireball from an explosvie, that could have been a jet fuel explosion. You probably have zero knowledge of explosives, and is basing what injuries they should have when in contact with the fireball from explosvies on nothing...

NoahFence:

I also notice that you failed to mention to your SEACRABS that the explosion this person was able to walk away from ALSO projected massive steel beams over 600'.

The more you post, the more you expose yourself. If english is your first language, and you still type this post after reading my post, i really feel sorry... Its a good example of how bad shape humanity is in.

 

[Edx]

I just proved you wrong, and you cant admit it?. Every post you make, that denies that you are wrong, is a troll post. Every high energy explosives expert in the world agress with me, you and your hobby debunker buddys all are victims of groupthink...

Saying "I just proved you wrong", is not an argument. Thats all you've been saying since you got here, no matter how "wrong" you clearly are.

You have still failed to answer any of the critical questions, because they are inconvenient to you. This is not the behaviour of someone interested in truth. I gave you lots of questions, I gave you lots of sources. You failed to respond to any of them in any way whatsoever.

 

[LSSBB]

Wrong, alot of people died in the towers and never escaped, you cant say that the people that escaped should have those bad injuries, they obviously shouldn't if they werent very close to the explosvies, why they should have been close to the explosvies you havent demonstrated, and you will not demonstrate it, because you can't. You argument is as flawed as it can be. i'm getting tired of answering this simple minded nonsens.

In other words, not a single person with barotrauma would have made it out of the buildings. At all. In any way. Just because.

ETA: what's a tertiary blast?

 

[NoahFence]

The more you post, the more you expose yourself. If english is your first language, and you still type this post after reading my post, i really feel sorry... Its a good example of how bad shape humanity is in.

You DID NOT address that with SECRAB. Period. If you think you did, please respond with the exact passage that you feel included the fact that massive steel beams were also flung about in the same explosion that did not injure a human being.

Either that or acknowledge that you did not in fact include that little titbit.

Please stop being dishonest. At least for a moment.

 

[Mudcat]

I seem to recall an episode of MythBusters that addressed the survivability of some explosions. For an explosion to sever and toss steal beams, it would not be able to toss a human being alive, even if it were possible that person would almost certainly wouldn't walk away with out injuries... Injures that would be inconstant with the kinds of injuries of the actual survivors of that horrible day.

 

[beachnut]

NoahFence: You dont like being proved wrong?... Why do you make stuff up when you dont know anything about explosives?. I was right all the time, calling me a lier for stating a simple fact about explosives. Shame on you....

"All discussion by rational people on JREF that had the word "tertiary" in it was in reference to injuries."

Just incredible... You will soon win the price for the most dishonest debunker on the planet....

You have zero first hand experience with explosives, and have ignored the history of explosives causing damage to people.

The people blown down the stairs of a WTC tower, were pushed by air. The air was due to collapse of the WTC which force air down the stairwells blowing a fireman 3 to 4 stories to his back - I would have to research the event to give you exact wording from the fireman.

You can quote-mine and cherry-pick your way to delusional nonsense about explosives, which you have done; does not make explosives being used on 911.

Many things "sound like explosions" but only explosives sound like explosives. People hitting the ground sound like explosions. Building falling sound like explosives. You have failed and prefer to make up lies. Does spreading lies make you feel better? Google up some more nonsense so you can be proud of your attempt at misleading people due to ignorance.

You quote-mine and cherry-pick statements to form idiotic lies about explosives.

Following are 16 WTC first responder descriptions of explosive noises well before the towers collapsed:

"Sounded like bombs" –Keith Murphy
"A huge explosion" –Gerard Gorman
"Sound of popping and exploding" –Alwish Monchery
"Explosions" –William Burns
"Kept hearing these large boom, boom" –Rosario Terranova
"Sounded like explosions." –Anthony Fitzgerald
"Like a shotgun going off" –Mark Meier
"Sounded like explosions" –Wilfred Barriere
"Sounded like bombs, like blockbusters" –John Murray
"You could hear explosions" –Richard Smiouskas
"Sounded like an M-80, that's how loud they were" –Tim Pearson
"Sounds like a shotgun" –Eric Ronningen
"Sounded like an explosion" –John Morabito
"There were lots of explosions" –Jeff Birnbaum
"Under the assumption that the sounds were secondary bombs." –Andrew Rodriguez
"Sounded like bombs. Like a bomb going off. I mean, it was huge." –FDNY Deputy Chief Peter Hayden

It would be dishonest of me to represent these accounts as anything but what they are: descriptions of bodies from the towers hitting the ground. But members of the 9/11 "truth" movement have no such compunction about misrepresenting dozens of other eyewitness accounts.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

Gravy researched the kind of lies you spread, and found 911 truth is delusional nonsense.

 

[R.Mackey]

R.Mackey:

You people really are a strange bunch, how can you type something like that, after reading my post... Who are you guys?, really?....

My identity is not a secret.

R.Mackey:

Wrong, alot of people died in the towers and never escaped, you cant say that the people that escaped should have those bad injuries, they obviously shouldn't if they werent very close to the explosvies, why they should have been close to the explosvies you havent demonstrated, and you will not demonstrate it, because you can't. You argument is as flawed as it can be. i'm getting tired of answering this simple minded nonsens.

Read the survey. Not one survivor showed signs of pressure injury, or kinetic injury consistent with explosives.

If you're now going to talk about people who didn't survive, then what was the point of your OP? You are attempting to argue that being blown around by explosives without otherwise being injured is possible, therefore Controlled Demolition. Thus, you must be concerned with people who did survive, full stop.

R.Mackey:

I dont claim that anybody were burned by any fireball from an explosvie, that could have been a jet fuel explosion. You probably have zero knowledge of explosives, and is basing what injuries they should have when in contact with the fireball from explosvies on nothing...

I have two graduate degrees in aeronautics, and I know enough about "tertiary blast waves" and other fluid dynamic effects to answer any relevant issue raised by your OP. Feel free to ask.