tsig
a carbon based life-form
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John Albert
Illuminator
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tsig
a carbon based life-form
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So not far off the size of two VW Beetles stacked one on top of the other then?
And we know that can be seen at 25K because fology's first story says so.
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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Despite things not being what they appear....
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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You're making things up.
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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It's interesting watching his story change and mutate just like his UFO (firefly) story.
Yup. I think it's much more likely that the aliens simply used the "dissipate" feature on their flying saucer.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
If there was any question about whether UFOlogy (the religion) was a pseudoscience, we have ufology (the Wikipedia expert) providing perfect examples of it by beginning with his conclusion and then making up crap to make it work.
Stray Cat
Philosopher
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But still in this particular case, insisting that an Object that was Flying and Undentified can be identified as an unidentified flying object with smoke not billowing out of it's exhaust but coming out in a sharp edged (flying wing shaped) cloud that symmetrically dissipates without getting softer at the edges. And can be viewed simultaneously from two horizontal angles of approximately 45° from each other and from two altitudes from ground level to approximately 18,000 feet.
This thing would need super natural powerz to be able to act in such a manner.
Last edited:
Stray Cat
Philosopher
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Thanks for this BTW Lance. Much appreciated.
One thing I wouldn't mind knowing and don't think it's mentioned in anything I've read is where exactly did the Lockheed take off from on that evening?
I'm not sure it's relevant, but for some reason it bugs me that no one says... maybe it's just my OCD.
lancemoody
Student
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I'll get this info for you when I get back to my home desk, if possible.
Lance
Edit: The record does not seem to state where the plane originated...I am sure those who know more about the skunkworks can fill us in as where their test flights were based.
Lance
Edit: The record does not seem to state where the plane originated...I am sure those who know more about the skunkworks can fill us in as where their test flights were based.
Last edited:
Astrophotographer
Graduate Poster
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Lance, after spending the better part of my lunch breaks transcribing these to MSword, NOW you tell me you already did this!!!! Well, at least it made me read the darn things closely.
Stray Cat, they probably flew out of the airstrip near their Burbank,CA plant.
118 21'23"
34 11' 52"
That seems to fit because the pilot describes flying southeasterly (bearing 135) towards Long beach and Santa Ana before heading west. (Long beach azimuth 157 and Santa Ana azimuth 138 from the airport)
Something I noticed was the descriptions sort of varied as well:
Johnson - At all times the object appeared as an ellipse
Thoren - a very large flying wing airplane
Wimmer - a crescent
Colman - a thin black line
Ware - a large object without wings with a maximum thickness in the middle tapering toward either side
I am trying to pull up the radiosonde data from the area from NOAA radiosonde disc. However, I have problems running this thing as it is a DOS based system where the syntax has to be JUST RIGHT to allow the program to pull the files off the CD. You can't just read the CD files as it is in code. It is so archaic and when I ask for help from NCDC, the guy says he does not understand why I can't get it. I have obtained the files on two occassions but then it does not work the next time indicating I got lucky somehow. Hopefully, when I pull this data off, it will provide us with some wind, temp, and dewpoints that might be helpful in evaluating what the atmospheric conditions were on that evening.
Stray Cat, they probably flew out of the airstrip near their Burbank,CA plant.
118 21'23"
34 11' 52"
That seems to fit because the pilot describes flying southeasterly (bearing 135) towards Long beach and Santa Ana before heading west. (Long beach azimuth 157 and Santa Ana azimuth 138 from the airport)
Something I noticed was the descriptions sort of varied as well:
Johnson - At all times the object appeared as an ellipse
Thoren - a very large flying wing airplane
Wimmer - a crescent
Colman - a thin black line
Ware - a large object without wings with a maximum thickness in the middle tapering toward either side
I am trying to pull up the radiosonde data from the area from NOAA radiosonde disc. However, I have problems running this thing as it is a DOS based system where the syntax has to be JUST RIGHT to allow the program to pull the files off the CD. You can't just read the CD files as it is in code. It is so archaic and when I ask for help from NCDC, the guy says he does not understand why I can't get it. I have obtained the files on two occassions but then it does not work the next time indicating I got lucky somehow. Hopefully, when I pull this data off, it will provide us with some wind, temp, and dewpoints that might be helpful in evaluating what the atmospheric conditions were on that evening.
lancemoody
Student
- Joined
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- Messages
- 46
Sorry, Tim,
Here are my facsimile style transcripts:
Lance
Transcripts:
=======
15 February 1954
Colonel George L. Wertenbaker
Commander
Air Technical Intelligence Center
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
Dear Colonel Wertenbaker:
I am enclosing a report, prepared by Clarence L. Johnson,
Chief Engineer of Lockheed Aircraft Corporation and some of his
associates, regarding a “flying saucer” incident. This report
was handed to me by Lockheed personnel with the explanation that
Mr. Johnson was most reluctant to write the report in the first
place and then refused to forward it on to you because of his
belief that those who profess to have seen flying saucers are not
usually considered to be logical and practical hard-headed
engineers. However, I thought you should have the report for
whatever value it may be in your overall studies.
Best Regards.
Sincerely yours,
D.L. Putt
Lieutenant General, USAF
Commander
1Incl:
Report
=======
January 23 1954 LAC/149536
Subject: Sighting of Flying Saucer by Certain Lockheed
Aircraft Corporation Personnel
To: Commander
Air Technical Intelligence Center
Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
Through: AFPR
Enclosure: (a) Four copies each of reports by C.L. Johnson
R.L. Thoren, R.L. Wimmer, P.A. Colman,
and J.F. Ware on the Sighting of a Flying
Saucer on 16 December 1953.
1. The enclosure is made up of a number of reports
concerning the sighting of a so called flying saucer on 16 December
The reports are self-explanatory. Only one copy of the map
is attached, indicating generally where this device was seen. This
information has not been released to the press, but is submitted for
such scientific purposes as your group may be concerned with.
2. Your comments on the sightings reported will be
very much appreciated.
LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT CORPORATION
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
(SIGNATURE)
Clarence L. Johnson
Chief Engineer
CLJ:vmp
=======
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT CORPORATION
December 18, 1953
To: Air Force Investigating Group on Flying Saucers
On Wednesday, December 16th, 1953, my wife and I went to our
ranch, which is three miles west of Agoura, California, and one mile
north of Ventura Blvd. We arrived there about sundown, which is
close to 4:45 P.M. PST. We went immediately to our ranch house,
which is located on a hill facing southwest.
At approximately 5 o’clock (within two minutes of accuracy), I was looking
at the sunset through a large plateglass window, when I noticed above a
mountain to the west what I first thought to be a black cloud. The sun
had gone down and the whole western sky was gold and red, with several
thin layers of clouds or haze at fairly high altitude. I wondered why this
one object was so dark, considering that the sun was behind it. I
immediately thought that some aircraft had made an intense smoke trail,
so I studied the object closely. It was apparent, after my first few
seconds of consideration, that the outline of the object did not change.
Thinking it was a lenticular cloud, I continued to study it, but it did not
move at all for three minutes. I do not know how long it was there
before my attention was called to it.
When it did not move or disintegrate, I asked my wife to get me our
eight-power binoculars, so I would not have to take my eyes off the object,
which by now I had recognized as a so-called “saucer”. As soon as I
was given the glasses, I ran outside and started to focus the glasses on
the object, which was now moving fast on a heading between 240˚ and 260˚.
When I got the glasses focused on the object, it was already moving
behind the first layer of haze. I gathered its speed was very high, because
of the rate of fore-shortening of its major axis. The object, even in the
glasses, appeared black and distinct, but i could make out no detail,
as I was looking toward the setting sun, which was, of course, below the
horizon at the time.
In 90 seconds from the time it started to move, the object had completely
disappeared, in a long shallow climb on the heading noted. The clouds
were coming onshore, in a direction of travel opposite to that of the
object. The time in which my wife and I studied this object was between
5:00 and 5:05. The object, which had hovered stationary for at least
three minutes, appeared to be very large but, not knowing its distance
from me, I could not estimate its dimensions. At all times the object
appeared as an ellipse, with a finess ratio of the larger axis to the
minor one of about 7 or 10 to 1. I estimated the position of the object to
be roughly over Point Mugu, which lies on a bearing about 255˚ from my
ranch.
On the morning of December 17th, I returned to work, having been absent for
about a week and Mr. Wassell, Assistant Chief Engineer, and Mr. Carl
(page)
Haddon, our Chief Project Engineer, came into my office with Mr. Rudy
Thoren. Mr. Thoren stated that he had seen a flying saucer the day
before. I immediately broke in, without letting him say what time and
where he had seen the object, and described my experience of the night
before. I wanted to do this so that I could get confirmation as to
whether of not he saw the same thing I saw at the time stated. Mr. Thoren
was dumbfounded, and described his experience, along with that of our
engineering test pilot, Mr. Roy Wimmer, flight engineer Joe Ware, and
our chief aerodynamicist, P.A. Colman, all of whom saw the object as
described in Mr. Thoren’s memo.
I should also state that about two years ago Mrs. Johnson and I saw an
object which I believed at the time, and still do, to be a saucer, flying
west of Brents Junction, California, on a very dark night. I did not see
the object itself but saw a clearly defined flame or emanation, as shown on
the attached sketch. This object was travelling from east to west at a
very high speed and with no noise. The flame or emanation was a beautiful
light blue, having extremely well defined edges. My first impression was
that it was an afterburning airplane, but the lack of noise and the pure
spread of the flame eliminated that possibility completely.
I should state that for at least five years I have definitely believed in the
possibility that flying saucers exist - this in spite of a good deal of kidding
from my technical associates. Having seen this particular object on
December 16th, I am now more firmly convinced than ever that such
devices exist, and I have some highly technical converts in this belief
as of that date
(SIGNATURE)
Clarence L. Johnson
Chief Engineer
CLJ:vmp
=======
January 12, 1953
FLYING SAUCER?
On Wednesday, December 15th I made a test flight in Constellation
4301. The crew in the cockpit consisted of myself as pilot, R.L. Thoren
as co-pilot, Charles Grugan, flight engineer, and J.F. Ware as flight test
engineer.
I took off late in the afternoon and ran some tests during the
climb to 5,000 feet and then made a level run for a few minutes.
I then started to climb to 20,000 feet and turned the controls
over to Rudy Thoren. We continued our climb in a south-easterly direction
and somewhere in the vicinity of Long Beach or Santa Ana between 16,000
and 20,000 feet we made a right turn onto a west heading. The sun had just
set but the air was very clear and the light was real good toward the west.
I noticed a cloud layer in the west starting somewhere east of Santa Cruz
island at about our altitude. Above this could layer, well out in the clear
air, I saw what I thought was a small cloud. Just for the fun of it I said,
“Boy, look at the flying saucer!”
After watching it for a few minutes we decided that it wasn’t a cloud
but some kind of object. It had a definite shape which appeared to me like
a crescent. Others on board described it as a huge flying wing. I could
not detect any details other than the shape of it. I estimated the distance
from us to be at least fifty or sixty miles and possibly much further. In
the clear air like that it is very hard to judge distance.
We flew directly toward it for about five minutes and our relative
position did not appear to change. I do not recall out exact speed, whether
we were still climbing or whether we had leveled off during the time.
As Rudy was flying the airplane, I had nothing else to do but to
watch the object. After about five minutes I suddenly realized it was moving
away from us heading straight west. In the space of about one minute it grew
smaller and disappeared. I was watching it all the time so I was able to see
it for several seconds after the rest of the crew lost sight of it. Right
up until the time it disappeared it maintained its sharp outline and definite
shape so I know it was not a cloud that dissolved giving the appearance of
moving away.
I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away.
(SIGNATURE)
Roy Wimmer
Engineering Test Pilot
=======
Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
California Division
INTERDEPARTMENTAL COMMUNICATION
To: Clarence L. Johnson Date January 11,1954
From: P.A. Colman Dept. 72-23 Plant A-1 Ext. 8-2189
Subject: FLYING SAUCERS
This is an account of my experience of witnessing the presence of an object in
the sky. I was flying in the Lockheed WV-2 airplane with Mr. R.L. Thoren, Mr.
Joseph Ware, Mr. Rpy Wimmer plus other members of the Flight Test Group. The
three individuals mentioned and I were in the pilot’s compartment of the airplane,
at approximately 5:00 p.m. on the night of Wednesday, December 16, 1953.
While flying off the coast in the vicinity of Santa Monica, I saw an object ap-
parently standing still in the air off the coast, in the vicinity of Point Mugu.
We were flying at 16,000 ft. and to the best of my judgement the object was at
the same altitude. The object appeared as a thin black line, giving a first reac-
tion of a B-36 type airplane, heading straight toward us and silhouetted against
a bright background. The background was bright due to the fact that the sun was
just setting. The object appeared not to move while we progressed with our tests.
For a few moments we turned the airplane toward the object but did not apparently
change our distance sufficiently to get any change of impression. I estimate that
the object was hovering in out sight for about ten minutes. Thereafter, it sud-
denly accelerated due west and in a time, in the order of 10 seconds, disappeared
from view.
The following day it was revealed that Mr. Clarence L. Johnson had seen the iden-
tical object while standing on the ground at his ranch. This coincidence is in-
teresting. The difference in the positions, both horizontally and vertically
between us indicate that the object had sufficient depth to eliminate the possi-
bility that it was a cloud phenomena. The similarity of the explanations of the
shape and actions of the object is remarkable. However, the blackness made it
impossible to discern anything but the basic outline.
(SIGNATURE)
P.A. Colman
Chief Aerodynamics Engineer
PAC:ma
=======
12-17-53
FLYING SAUCER?
On Wednesday, December 16, 1953, I participated in a test flight of a Navy
Super Constellation WV-2, taking off at 4:29 p.m.. The flight consisted
of: Roy Wimmer, pilot; myself, co-pilot; Charlie Grugan, flight engineer;
and Joe Ware, flight test engineer. We climbed out towards the ocean and
leveled off at 10,000 feet for a short test. After completing this test,
Wimmer turned the controls over to me and I started climbing to our next test
altitude of 20,000 feet. I climbed through a very thin, scattered overcast,
somewhere around 14,000 feet, avoided a couple of small clouds, and continued
to climb towards 20,000 feet.
Somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 feet, Roy Wimmer said to me, “Look out,
there’’s a flying saucer.” I looked out the windshield towards where Roy was
pointing and saw some sort of an object at approximately the altitude that we
were flying. I made a slight turn heading right towards the object, expecting
to overtake it so that we could look at it more closely. I maintained
this heading for roughly five minutes, looking at the object all the time.
Wimmer, Ware and myself viewed this thing for at least five minutes, discussing
what we thought it might be. Wimmer’s first impression was that it was a small
cloud. After studying for several minutes, though, I deduced that it was
not a cloud because it had too definite sharp edges and its appearance stayed
constant. It looked to me like I was flying right directly towards it, and at
about the same elevation as, a very large flying wing airplane. I would esti-
mate at this time that I was somewhere between 17,000 and 18,000 feet.
Although the object appeared to be absolutely stationary, we did not seem to
be closing the gap between us and this object. even though we were flying at
some 225 miles per hour. The object then seemed to be getting smaller, and my
attention was diverted from it for a minute or so, but Wimmer mentioned that
the object was disappearing. In probably an elapsed time of somewhere around
a minute, the object had reduced in size to a mere speck, and then disappeared.
It’s direction was almost due west. At the same time, the sun had gone down below the
horizon but the sky was red, and this object silhouetted perfectly
against this red background. The atmosphere was extremely clear. When I first
sighted the object, I guessed that it was probably seven miles away. However,
looking at it in retrospect, to object must have been considerably larger than
I had estimated and, hence, the distance was probably much greater than I had
also estimated.
Looking back at the flight record taken on this flight, it was recorded that
we leveled off at 20,000 feet at 5:10. Inasmuch as we had sighted this object
when we were somewhere between 16,000 and 18,000 feet, our view of the object
started at roughly 5 o’clock, or just a little before that. We continued with
out test flight, thinking no more of this observation, and landed after 6
o’clock. We discussed other details of the flight and then went home. When
I got home, I described the so-called flying saucer to my family and made a
little sketch of what it looked like to me.
(Page)
Flying Saucer? - 2 - 12-17-53
This morning, I reported to work and went directly to see Mr. C.L. Johnson,
Chief Engineer, to give him a report on activities occurring in the last few
days, inasmuch as he had just returned from a trip. In attendance at this
meeting were also Mr. Jack Wassall and Mr. Carl Haddon We discussed a number
of things and, in the course of the conversation, I discussed the flight made
yesterday on this WV-2. Upon completion of the technical discussion, I casually
mentioned (for fear of being ridiculed) that I had been chasing a flying saucer
last night. Kelly snapped this up immediately, and said he knew exactly
where it was and when; and, with no further adieu he sad it was at 5:05
and the object was sighted off of Point Mugu. This literally bowled me over,
because the location of the object that I sighted was off of Point Mugu. I
had estimated that it was somewhere between Point Mugu and the Santa Barbara
Islands. Incidentally, at the time I had sighted it, we were flying over the
ocean just off of Long Beach.
Kelly then related that last night at about 5:05 p.m. he had seen an object
in the western sky and had gotten binoculars and looked at it in detail.
He described it at a wing with an aspect ratio of approximately seven. He said
that it appeared stationary for several minutes, and then heading directly west
it disappeared in one to two minutes, as I recollect his conversation. This
story jibes exactly with what we saw in flight at the same time.
I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and
have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to
identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who
have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to
have accurate observations. Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight
test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained obser-
ver. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and
the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an
illusion that I observed.
(SIGNATURE)
R.L. Thoren
Chief Flight Test Engineer
=======
L O C K H E E D A I R C R A F T C O R P O R A T I O N
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
A.N.V.O.
To: C.L. Johnson January 11, 1954
cc: Intra-Flight Test Files
From: J.F. Ware, Jr. 72-28 5-6 8-2950
Subj: FLYING SAUCERS
On December 16, 1953, I was aboard a WV-2 airplane, LAC 4301, with Roy
Wimmer as pilot, Rudy Thoren as Co-Pilot, Charlie Grugan as Flight
Engineer. Phil Colman was also in the cockpit.
At about 5:00 PM we were over the Catalina channel area (between Avalon
and Palos Verdes hills) at 15000-16000 ft., on top of a scattered to
broken overcast. The horizon was well defined by the rays of the setting
sun and the sky above the overcast was clear.
Our attention was drawn to what looked like a large airplane off to the
right. We were roughly paralleling the coast at the time and Roy, I
think mentioned, “There’s a flying saucer”. We have kidded Roy a good
deal about flying saucers since the night about two years agao when he
and Bob Laird were in 1951S and sighted some lights over Catalina. These
lights reportedly stood still for a while and moved around over the
island and finally disappeared.
I was standing between the pilots and observed the object out of the co-
pilots window in the 4301. Phil Colman’s attention was also drawn to the
object. Rudy, who was flying at the time, turned around and headed
toward the object. During this time, it seemed to be stationary, although
we did not appear to overtake it at all. My first thought was that it
was a large airplane, possibly a C-124, but after looking more closely,
it seemed to look more like a large object without wings with a maximum
thickness in the middle tapering toward either side, I could not distinguish
front or rear on the object. It seemed to be somewhat above us and to
the West, over the water, possibly in the vicinity of Santa Barbara Islands.
After looking at the object off and on for about five minutes, it became
apparent that it was moving away from us and in just a minute or two it
completely disappeared. As it was disappearing, I looked at it off and on
and gradually I could not see it at all. Roy watched it continuously and
could see it after I had lost sight of it--he actually observed it con-
tinuously I believe. It disappeared in a generally westward direction (toward the setting sun).
I’ve been interested in flying saucers, particularly ever since one evening
during the 1951 Christmas Holidays. I was putting up a TV antenna on my
roof when I looked up toward the north over the hills behind our home and
saw a large circular object, apparently stationary. The time of day was
abut dusk and I watched the object for several minutes and called Leslie
and a neighbor, Mr. Murphy, who also looked at it. I continued working on
my TV antenna, glancing at the object now and then, with more and more
(PAGE)
FLYING SAUCERS. 1-11-54
Page 2
time between glances, and finally the object was gone.
There is a small airstrip at Giant Rock, and I have visited the group of
people there who have devoted their life to flying saucers. The have
many photographs and books on the subject, and figuratively eat and sleep
saucers.
(SIGNATURE)
J.F. Ware, Jr.
Section Supervisor - Flight Test
JFW:bjr
Handwritten:
I have marked on attached
map my estimate of
our position when we
saw the “saucer” and my
estimate of the position of
the saucer
======
Note also Kelly Johnson's drawing. The map mentioned by Ware above is not part of the material online.
Here are my facsimile style transcripts:
Lance
Transcripts:
=======
15 February 1954
Colonel George L. Wertenbaker
Commander
Air Technical Intelligence Center
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
Dear Colonel Wertenbaker:
I am enclosing a report, prepared by Clarence L. Johnson,
Chief Engineer of Lockheed Aircraft Corporation and some of his
associates, regarding a “flying saucer” incident. This report
was handed to me by Lockheed personnel with the explanation that
Mr. Johnson was most reluctant to write the report in the first
place and then refused to forward it on to you because of his
belief that those who profess to have seen flying saucers are not
usually considered to be logical and practical hard-headed
engineers. However, I thought you should have the report for
whatever value it may be in your overall studies.
Best Regards.
Sincerely yours,
D.L. Putt
Lieutenant General, USAF
Commander
1Incl:
Report
=======
January 23 1954 LAC/149536
Subject: Sighting of Flying Saucer by Certain Lockheed
Aircraft Corporation Personnel
To: Commander
Air Technical Intelligence Center
Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
Through: AFPR
Enclosure: (a) Four copies each of reports by C.L. Johnson
R.L. Thoren, R.L. Wimmer, P.A. Colman,
and J.F. Ware on the Sighting of a Flying
Saucer on 16 December 1953.
1. The enclosure is made up of a number of reports
concerning the sighting of a so called flying saucer on 16 December
The reports are self-explanatory. Only one copy of the map
is attached, indicating generally where this device was seen. This
information has not been released to the press, but is submitted for
such scientific purposes as your group may be concerned with.
2. Your comments on the sightings reported will be
very much appreciated.
LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT CORPORATION
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
(SIGNATURE)
Clarence L. Johnson
Chief Engineer
CLJ:vmp
=======
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT CORPORATION
December 18, 1953
To: Air Force Investigating Group on Flying Saucers
On Wednesday, December 16th, 1953, my wife and I went to our
ranch, which is three miles west of Agoura, California, and one mile
north of Ventura Blvd. We arrived there about sundown, which is
close to 4:45 P.M. PST. We went immediately to our ranch house,
which is located on a hill facing southwest.
At approximately 5 o’clock (within two minutes of accuracy), I was looking
at the sunset through a large plateglass window, when I noticed above a
mountain to the west what I first thought to be a black cloud. The sun
had gone down and the whole western sky was gold and red, with several
thin layers of clouds or haze at fairly high altitude. I wondered why this
one object was so dark, considering that the sun was behind it. I
immediately thought that some aircraft had made an intense smoke trail,
so I studied the object closely. It was apparent, after my first few
seconds of consideration, that the outline of the object did not change.
Thinking it was a lenticular cloud, I continued to study it, but it did not
move at all for three minutes. I do not know how long it was there
before my attention was called to it.
When it did not move or disintegrate, I asked my wife to get me our
eight-power binoculars, so I would not have to take my eyes off the object,
which by now I had recognized as a so-called “saucer”. As soon as I
was given the glasses, I ran outside and started to focus the glasses on
the object, which was now moving fast on a heading between 240˚ and 260˚.
When I got the glasses focused on the object, it was already moving
behind the first layer of haze. I gathered its speed was very high, because
of the rate of fore-shortening of its major axis. The object, even in the
glasses, appeared black and distinct, but i could make out no detail,
as I was looking toward the setting sun, which was, of course, below the
horizon at the time.
In 90 seconds from the time it started to move, the object had completely
disappeared, in a long shallow climb on the heading noted. The clouds
were coming onshore, in a direction of travel opposite to that of the
object. The time in which my wife and I studied this object was between
5:00 and 5:05. The object, which had hovered stationary for at least
three minutes, appeared to be very large but, not knowing its distance
from me, I could not estimate its dimensions. At all times the object
appeared as an ellipse, with a finess ratio of the larger axis to the
minor one of about 7 or 10 to 1. I estimated the position of the object to
be roughly over Point Mugu, which lies on a bearing about 255˚ from my
ranch.
On the morning of December 17th, I returned to work, having been absent for
about a week and Mr. Wassell, Assistant Chief Engineer, and Mr. Carl
(page)
Haddon, our Chief Project Engineer, came into my office with Mr. Rudy
Thoren. Mr. Thoren stated that he had seen a flying saucer the day
before. I immediately broke in, without letting him say what time and
where he had seen the object, and described my experience of the night
before. I wanted to do this so that I could get confirmation as to
whether of not he saw the same thing I saw at the time stated. Mr. Thoren
was dumbfounded, and described his experience, along with that of our
engineering test pilot, Mr. Roy Wimmer, flight engineer Joe Ware, and
our chief aerodynamicist, P.A. Colman, all of whom saw the object as
described in Mr. Thoren’s memo.
I should also state that about two years ago Mrs. Johnson and I saw an
object which I believed at the time, and still do, to be a saucer, flying
west of Brents Junction, California, on a very dark night. I did not see
the object itself but saw a clearly defined flame or emanation, as shown on
the attached sketch. This object was travelling from east to west at a
very high speed and with no noise. The flame or emanation was a beautiful
light blue, having extremely well defined edges. My first impression was
that it was an afterburning airplane, but the lack of noise and the pure
spread of the flame eliminated that possibility completely.
I should state that for at least five years I have definitely believed in the
possibility that flying saucers exist - this in spite of a good deal of kidding
from my technical associates. Having seen this particular object on
December 16th, I am now more firmly convinced than ever that such
devices exist, and I have some highly technical converts in this belief
as of that date
(SIGNATURE)
Clarence L. Johnson
Chief Engineer
CLJ:vmp
=======
January 12, 1953
FLYING SAUCER?
On Wednesday, December 15th I made a test flight in Constellation
4301. The crew in the cockpit consisted of myself as pilot, R.L. Thoren
as co-pilot, Charles Grugan, flight engineer, and J.F. Ware as flight test
engineer.
I took off late in the afternoon and ran some tests during the
climb to 5,000 feet and then made a level run for a few minutes.
I then started to climb to 20,000 feet and turned the controls
over to Rudy Thoren. We continued our climb in a south-easterly direction
and somewhere in the vicinity of Long Beach or Santa Ana between 16,000
and 20,000 feet we made a right turn onto a west heading. The sun had just
set but the air was very clear and the light was real good toward the west.
I noticed a cloud layer in the west starting somewhere east of Santa Cruz
island at about our altitude. Above this could layer, well out in the clear
air, I saw what I thought was a small cloud. Just for the fun of it I said,
“Boy, look at the flying saucer!”
After watching it for a few minutes we decided that it wasn’t a cloud
but some kind of object. It had a definite shape which appeared to me like
a crescent. Others on board described it as a huge flying wing. I could
not detect any details other than the shape of it. I estimated the distance
from us to be at least fifty or sixty miles and possibly much further. In
the clear air like that it is very hard to judge distance.
We flew directly toward it for about five minutes and our relative
position did not appear to change. I do not recall out exact speed, whether
we were still climbing or whether we had leveled off during the time.
As Rudy was flying the airplane, I had nothing else to do but to
watch the object. After about five minutes I suddenly realized it was moving
away from us heading straight west. In the space of about one minute it grew
smaller and disappeared. I was watching it all the time so I was able to see
it for several seconds after the rest of the crew lost sight of it. Right
up until the time it disappeared it maintained its sharp outline and definite
shape so I know it was not a cloud that dissolved giving the appearance of
moving away.
I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away.
(SIGNATURE)
Roy Wimmer
Engineering Test Pilot
=======
Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
California Division
INTERDEPARTMENTAL COMMUNICATION
To: Clarence L. Johnson Date January 11,1954
From: P.A. Colman Dept. 72-23 Plant A-1 Ext. 8-2189
Subject: FLYING SAUCERS
This is an account of my experience of witnessing the presence of an object in
the sky. I was flying in the Lockheed WV-2 airplane with Mr. R.L. Thoren, Mr.
Joseph Ware, Mr. Rpy Wimmer plus other members of the Flight Test Group. The
three individuals mentioned and I were in the pilot’s compartment of the airplane,
at approximately 5:00 p.m. on the night of Wednesday, December 16, 1953.
While flying off the coast in the vicinity of Santa Monica, I saw an object ap-
parently standing still in the air off the coast, in the vicinity of Point Mugu.
We were flying at 16,000 ft. and to the best of my judgement the object was at
the same altitude. The object appeared as a thin black line, giving a first reac-
tion of a B-36 type airplane, heading straight toward us and silhouetted against
a bright background. The background was bright due to the fact that the sun was
just setting. The object appeared not to move while we progressed with our tests.
For a few moments we turned the airplane toward the object but did not apparently
change our distance sufficiently to get any change of impression. I estimate that
the object was hovering in out sight for about ten minutes. Thereafter, it sud-
denly accelerated due west and in a time, in the order of 10 seconds, disappeared
from view.
The following day it was revealed that Mr. Clarence L. Johnson had seen the iden-
tical object while standing on the ground at his ranch. This coincidence is in-
teresting. The difference in the positions, both horizontally and vertically
between us indicate that the object had sufficient depth to eliminate the possi-
bility that it was a cloud phenomena. The similarity of the explanations of the
shape and actions of the object is remarkable. However, the blackness made it
impossible to discern anything but the basic outline.
(SIGNATURE)
P.A. Colman
Chief Aerodynamics Engineer
PAC:ma
=======
12-17-53
FLYING SAUCER?
On Wednesday, December 16, 1953, I participated in a test flight of a Navy
Super Constellation WV-2, taking off at 4:29 p.m.. The flight consisted
of: Roy Wimmer, pilot; myself, co-pilot; Charlie Grugan, flight engineer;
and Joe Ware, flight test engineer. We climbed out towards the ocean and
leveled off at 10,000 feet for a short test. After completing this test,
Wimmer turned the controls over to me and I started climbing to our next test
altitude of 20,000 feet. I climbed through a very thin, scattered overcast,
somewhere around 14,000 feet, avoided a couple of small clouds, and continued
to climb towards 20,000 feet.
Somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 feet, Roy Wimmer said to me, “Look out,
there’’s a flying saucer.” I looked out the windshield towards where Roy was
pointing and saw some sort of an object at approximately the altitude that we
were flying. I made a slight turn heading right towards the object, expecting
to overtake it so that we could look at it more closely. I maintained
this heading for roughly five minutes, looking at the object all the time.
Wimmer, Ware and myself viewed this thing for at least five minutes, discussing
what we thought it might be. Wimmer’s first impression was that it was a small
cloud. After studying for several minutes, though, I deduced that it was
not a cloud because it had too definite sharp edges and its appearance stayed
constant. It looked to me like I was flying right directly towards it, and at
about the same elevation as, a very large flying wing airplane. I would esti-
mate at this time that I was somewhere between 17,000 and 18,000 feet.
Although the object appeared to be absolutely stationary, we did not seem to
be closing the gap between us and this object. even though we were flying at
some 225 miles per hour. The object then seemed to be getting smaller, and my
attention was diverted from it for a minute or so, but Wimmer mentioned that
the object was disappearing. In probably an elapsed time of somewhere around
a minute, the object had reduced in size to a mere speck, and then disappeared.
It’s direction was almost due west. At the same time, the sun had gone down below the
horizon but the sky was red, and this object silhouetted perfectly
against this red background. The atmosphere was extremely clear. When I first
sighted the object, I guessed that it was probably seven miles away. However,
looking at it in retrospect, to object must have been considerably larger than
I had estimated and, hence, the distance was probably much greater than I had
also estimated.
Looking back at the flight record taken on this flight, it was recorded that
we leveled off at 20,000 feet at 5:10. Inasmuch as we had sighted this object
when we were somewhere between 16,000 and 18,000 feet, our view of the object
started at roughly 5 o’clock, or just a little before that. We continued with
out test flight, thinking no more of this observation, and landed after 6
o’clock. We discussed other details of the flight and then went home. When
I got home, I described the so-called flying saucer to my family and made a
little sketch of what it looked like to me.
(Page)
Flying Saucer? - 2 - 12-17-53
This morning, I reported to work and went directly to see Mr. C.L. Johnson,
Chief Engineer, to give him a report on activities occurring in the last few
days, inasmuch as he had just returned from a trip. In attendance at this
meeting were also Mr. Jack Wassall and Mr. Carl Haddon We discussed a number
of things and, in the course of the conversation, I discussed the flight made
yesterday on this WV-2. Upon completion of the technical discussion, I casually
mentioned (for fear of being ridiculed) that I had been chasing a flying saucer
last night. Kelly snapped this up immediately, and said he knew exactly
where it was and when; and, with no further adieu he sad it was at 5:05
and the object was sighted off of Point Mugu. This literally bowled me over,
because the location of the object that I sighted was off of Point Mugu. I
had estimated that it was somewhere between Point Mugu and the Santa Barbara
Islands. Incidentally, at the time I had sighted it, we were flying over the
ocean just off of Long Beach.
Kelly then related that last night at about 5:05 p.m. he had seen an object
in the western sky and had gotten binoculars and looked at it in detail.
He described it at a wing with an aspect ratio of approximately seven. He said
that it appeared stationary for several minutes, and then heading directly west
it disappeared in one to two minutes, as I recollect his conversation. This
story jibes exactly with what we saw in flight at the same time.
I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and
have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to
identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who
have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to
have accurate observations. Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight
test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained obser-
ver. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and
the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an
illusion that I observed.
(SIGNATURE)
R.L. Thoren
Chief Flight Test Engineer
=======
L O C K H E E D A I R C R A F T C O R P O R A T I O N
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
A.N.V.O.
To: C.L. Johnson January 11, 1954
cc: Intra-Flight Test Files
From: J.F. Ware, Jr. 72-28 5-6 8-2950
Subj: FLYING SAUCERS
On December 16, 1953, I was aboard a WV-2 airplane, LAC 4301, with Roy
Wimmer as pilot, Rudy Thoren as Co-Pilot, Charlie Grugan as Flight
Engineer. Phil Colman was also in the cockpit.
At about 5:00 PM we were over the Catalina channel area (between Avalon
and Palos Verdes hills) at 15000-16000 ft., on top of a scattered to
broken overcast. The horizon was well defined by the rays of the setting
sun and the sky above the overcast was clear.
Our attention was drawn to what looked like a large airplane off to the
right. We were roughly paralleling the coast at the time and Roy, I
think mentioned, “There’s a flying saucer”. We have kidded Roy a good
deal about flying saucers since the night about two years agao when he
and Bob Laird were in 1951S and sighted some lights over Catalina. These
lights reportedly stood still for a while and moved around over the
island and finally disappeared.
I was standing between the pilots and observed the object out of the co-
pilots window in the 4301. Phil Colman’s attention was also drawn to the
object. Rudy, who was flying at the time, turned around and headed
toward the object. During this time, it seemed to be stationary, although
we did not appear to overtake it at all. My first thought was that it
was a large airplane, possibly a C-124, but after looking more closely,
it seemed to look more like a large object without wings with a maximum
thickness in the middle tapering toward either side, I could not distinguish
front or rear on the object. It seemed to be somewhat above us and to
the West, over the water, possibly in the vicinity of Santa Barbara Islands.
After looking at the object off and on for about five minutes, it became
apparent that it was moving away from us and in just a minute or two it
completely disappeared. As it was disappearing, I looked at it off and on
and gradually I could not see it at all. Roy watched it continuously and
could see it after I had lost sight of it--he actually observed it con-
tinuously I believe. It disappeared in a generally westward direction (toward the setting sun).
I’ve been interested in flying saucers, particularly ever since one evening
during the 1951 Christmas Holidays. I was putting up a TV antenna on my
roof when I looked up toward the north over the hills behind our home and
saw a large circular object, apparently stationary. The time of day was
abut dusk and I watched the object for several minutes and called Leslie
and a neighbor, Mr. Murphy, who also looked at it. I continued working on
my TV antenna, glancing at the object now and then, with more and more
(PAGE)
FLYING SAUCERS. 1-11-54
Page 2
time between glances, and finally the object was gone.
There is a small airstrip at Giant Rock, and I have visited the group of
people there who have devoted their life to flying saucers. The have
many photographs and books on the subject, and figuratively eat and sleep
saucers.
(SIGNATURE)
J.F. Ware, Jr.
Section Supervisor - Flight Test
JFW:bjr
Handwritten:
I have marked on attached
map my estimate of
our position when we
saw the “saucer” and my
estimate of the position of
the saucer
======
Note also Kelly Johnson's drawing. The map mentioned by Ware above is not part of the material online.
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Stray Cat
Philosopher
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Thanks for that.
It's a shame we can't just make something up and presume we're right about it.
ufology
Master Poster
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Conflatin' ? ... Well dag nabit I didn't knw them Vee Dubyas was even conflatable! Now ya went and taught me somethin' I never knew b'fore ... yer so smart.
ufology
Master Poster
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Uh ... for the person who asked me who skeptic Lance was a while back ... I'm pretty sure that's him. Maybe he'll show the rest of you nerf herders how it's done.
GeeMack
Banned
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It would appear that part of how it's done involves actually doing some work. Like pretty much everyone in this discussion has done with the exception of the WAGers, you know, the "ufologists"? Maybe they could take a lesson here.
Did you get that probability calculation started yet? That one where you divide the total number of unidentified flying objects that were later identified as alien craft by the total number that were identified as something other than alien craft?
You really don't get this burden of proof thing do you? Lancemoody and Straycat have put in the sort of effort that Ufologists, you included, should have made to try and verify any part of this story but of course that's too much like hard work so you just pick a conclusion and cherry pick whatever bits of the witness statements you actually read to fit; and of course dismiss everything that contradicts you while making snide remarks about skeptics.
ufology
Master Poster
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It's a shame we can't just make something up and presume we're right about it.
Yes I'm sure you really feel that way too ... so since you haven't already ... please let me know after you've concluded the object in question that looked like it could have been some type of an aircraft to more than one witness wasn't actually some sort of giant alien craft ... would you please? In the meantime I'll just keep thinking it probably wasn't because of course my mind is made up already based on all the stuff you think I just "made up". I wonder how much longer this is going to take?
ufology
Master Poster
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Actually you may recall that I've complimented Astro and suggested the rest of you take a hint from Lance, so really it isn't them I've made any "snide" remarks about ... at least I certainly wouldn't refer to them as "nerf herders" ... and Acky back there was actually quite offended once when I called him a skeptic. So it's really the rest of you class clowns that are the ones who stand to gain by paying some attention ... watch and learn.
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