Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

ufology said:
Stray,

The aircraft I see here are just specks at 40Km unless they have their approach lights on. But you can see them distinctly as aircraft through 10X binoculars, so I'm thinking the range was more like around 35-40Km, and if you measure from Agoura where the ground observers were out over the water in the vicinity of Point Mugu where the airborne observers say the flying wing was, according to Google Earth measurements, that fits about right. So your 256 mile estimate is way off.
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Your unwillingness to acknowledge that if the object was over Point Mugu, the flight crew's reported heading and estimate of where the object was, is wrong by over 90° (how could an "experienced" and "trained" pilot get such information wrong?). Further as the object "departed" West, the flight crew would have been almost due South of it and if they could see it at all from a distance of at least 45 miles away, would have been able to see it "departing" and yet they report it simply getting smaller and disappearing. Even further than that, the plane was reported heading in a South Easterly direction when the object was spotted "off to the right". How could a plane in the Catalina channel see an object off to the right, if that object was in a location almost directly behind them?

So you are still ignoring the majority of the information in order to support your conclusion. You will make a fine UFOlogist.

My estimate of 256 miles is based upon a triangulation of the Johnson Ranch directly across Pt. Mugu and the plane in the Catalina Channel with the flight crew report of the object being "over Santa Barbra Island" and is really the only way that the object could have given the appearance of getting smaller and disappearing to both observing parties. I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm trying to find various scenarios where the most parts of the information we have could be confirmed.

ufology said:
Then if the wing departed due west as reported, over the course of 90 seconds, also as reported, it would move off and appear to get smaller until it was gone at arange of about 50 Km.
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Yes, and the flight crew who were looking at it from almost due South, would have seen a 175' wide object moving from their right to left at 500mph with their super human eye powerz from at least 45 miles away in the Catalina Channel?
Orly :boggled:

ufology said:
The YB-49 was produced by Northrop at Hawthorne California, not far away from the sighting and also flown out of Edwards AFB, also not also not far ( just over the mountain range about 100 Km NE ). So again, this all adds up to just what they say they saw ... a flying wing.
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They didn't say that was what they saw (that is your mental construct).
They mention they considered it as a possibility.
Johnson and the flight crew also clearly state they thought it could be a cloud, and also that it could be a flying saucer.

I have also considered the possibility of it being a flying wing, but when you look at the majority of the information given in the report, there is no way that both parties could have seen an object only 175' wide, given that the majority of the information puts the object in a rough position that directly contradicts the position it would have to be in to even have a chance of being seen by both parties.
 
ufology said:
I couldn't agree more, and since the skeptics take particular joy in debunking these claims it seemed logical that maybe one of them here either already knew of some further information or might be interested in exposing an actual hoax rather than simply sitting back and making excuses as to why they don't need to bother. But with the exceptions of skeptics like Astro and Lance, such is typical here.
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Just catching up here. Ooly, who is Lance? :confused:
 
Stray Cat said:
In addition to my previous post. I've now worked out a scenario where it's possible for the object to move away from both the Johnson Ranch and the plane at an angle that may make it hard to discern any movement (in other words so that both observing groups would only have the impression of the object simply getting smaller and disappearing).

To do this, I've assumed that Johnson was approximately correct in that the object was in a line of sight in the direction of Point Mugu and that the single flight crew member who reported the object's position over Santa Barbra was also accurate in his observation.

So it is possible taking those two bits of information as accurate to have a position for the object that would put it at an adequate angle for it to be able to move away from both parties and possibly look like it was simply getting smaller.

By extending the line of sight from the Johnson Ranch over Point Mugu and out into the Pacific Ocean and taking the approximate position of the plane off the coast at Long Beach in the Catalina Channel and extending a line of sight directly over Santa Barbra Island. The two lines of sight converge at a point 256 miles away from the plane's position and 235 miles from the Johnson Ranch.
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Hi... Stray :D

I know it's terribly demanding of me, particularly since you've done so much work already, but could we have some annotated screen grabs of Google Earth showing all this?

Only if you're not busy, like.... :)
 
23_Tauri said:
Hi... Stray :D

I know it's terribly demanding of me, particularly since you've done so much work already, but could we have some annotated screen grabs of Google Earth showing all this?
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There you go asking the helpful cooperative skeptics to do all the work again dammit. Oh, wait. In "ufology" that is how it works, isn't it? :p
 
23_Tauri said:
Hi... Stray :D

I know it's terribly demanding of me, particularly since you've done so much work already, but could we have some annotated screen grabs of Google Earth showing all this?

Only if you're not busy, like.... :)
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Hi Little

I'm still trying to work out the best way to present it.
There are so many contradicting bits of information in the individual eye witness reports, that I was trying to work out if I could plot everything on to one single 'Google Earth' picture using a different colour for each witness.

But the short answer is "yes" I could present this particular scenario with pictures if people need to see it. :)
 
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Stray Cat said:
Hi Little
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Hello
upside.gif

Better to be a Little than a cold card reading Medium. :D

Stray Cat said:
I'm still trying to work out the best way to present it.
There are so many contradicting bits of information in the individual eye witness reports, that I was trying to work out if I could plot everything on to one single 'Google Earth' picture using a different colour for each witness.

But the short answer is "yes" I could present this particular scenario with pictures if people need to see it. :)
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Well I would love to see the story graphically presented. I like books with pictures. :D But don't do it just on my account; would it help others here to see Stray Cat's Google Earth picture better visualise the events?
 
ufology said:
Ya that's right Johnny ... get on it eh ... and quit making excuses.
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Why don't you quit making excuses yourself, and do your own research?

You're the one who claims to be the intrepid UFOlogist, after all. So get off your lazy ass and go do some UFOlogy!
 
GeeMack said:
There you go asking the helpful cooperative skeptics to do all the work again dammit. Oh, wait. In "ufology" that is how it works, isn't it? :p
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It might help Mr Ooly too, seeing as it appears he is having problems understanding Stray Cat's calculated triangulation from the locations of Johnson and the aircraft.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I think you've grasped completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to my post.
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Really? I think I understood it just fine. It is pretty self-explanatory after all.

I was merely filling you in on some backstory about J. Randall Murphy and his repeated attempts to enlist the JREF skeptics to provide him with free content for his woo-woo website, where our work would be featured alongside his own stories about outer space aliens, giant talking rabbits, spooky men-in-black in their vanishing '59 Cadillac, his uncanny ability to levitate out of his bed and float about the house, and the pièce de résistance, his own claim to fame, the J. Randall Murphy Windermere UFO ( Volksblimp firefly ) hoax.


ufology said:
I'll give you some extra points for using the word "embiggened" ... although "largified" or "voluminated" would have also been equally deserving.
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Quit talking like George W. Bush with all the stupid, made-up words.

Everyone knows "embiggened" is a perfectly cromulent word.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Perhaps, before I waste my time, you should quote the bit of my post where I "judg[e your] reaction as overly harsh"?
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I didn't say you did judge our reactions as overly harsh, hence my use of the phrase "before you start":

John Albert said:
So before you start judging our reaction as overly harsh...
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See?

If I thought you'd already judged our reactions as harsh, I would have used the past tense, and dispensed with the word "before" that clearly indicates a preliminary condition or state of anticipation.

That's how English works, BTW.

As for what I actually said, it was merely that our reactions might appear harsh to somebody just coming into this thread for the first time, but there is in fact a good reason for our blunt reactions to such requests made by J. Randall Murphy (a.k.a. "ufology").

That reason is based on a repeated pattern of discourse with Mr. Murphy wherein he enters into a debate, ignores our intelligent questions, steadfastly refuses us the courtesy of his own honest attention and cognition, instead opting to dishonestly mince words to subvert the debate and frustrate everybody. Then he totally changes the subject to make a request that we provide him with skeptical opinions on some specific case or other of his choosing, so that he might include our opinions on his website.

After dealing with that kind of garbage for several months now, it's become apparent to us that he has no real interest in skepticism, or learning to think critically for himself. It is by now quite obvious that he just wants to continue promoting the wholly unskeptical notion that the Earth is being visited by outer space aliens in flying saucers. Meanwhile, he regularly solicits the JREF community for free material to post on his website, to give it the appearance of having some content besides his own personal fantasies and the running glossary of terms that he's taken it upon himself to redefine according to his own opinions.
 
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23_Tauri said:
Well I would love to see the story graphically presented. I like books with pictures. :D But don't do it just on my account; would it help others here to see Stray Cat's Google Earth picture better visualise the events?
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256-miles.jpg


This drawn up and presuming Ware's statement is accurate in that the plane was somewhere in the Catalina Channel and the object was in sight line with Santa Barbra Island. Also assuming Johnson was accurate that the object was in sight line to Point Mugu. And also assuming that both groups of observers were correct that the object got smaller and disappeared with no sign of lateral movement.
 
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Interesting plot Stray Cat. I find it intersting that none of the witnesses in the WV-2 can seem to agree exactly where the object was located.

Wimmer- East of Santa Cruz island
Thoren-Between Santa Barbara island and Point Mugu
Colman - in the vicnity of Point Mugu (interestingly he states they were off Santa Monica while the others seem to put the plane further south)
Ware-...to the west, over the water, possibly in the vicinity of Santa Barbara Island

The UFOlogists picked a point between Santa Cruz and point Mugu but I think that position is not very accurate and your position seems more correct (possibly a bit further north of Santa Barbara but that is quibbling). One would think these gentlemen could have written down headings of the aircraft and azimuths to provide more precise information.
 
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