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Obama's State of the Union Address

Does anyone believe 1/2 the money no longer spent at war will be used to pay down the debt?

Washington Post Fact Checker sure doesn't:

“Take the money we’re no longer spending at war, use half of it to pay down our debt, and use the rest to do some nation-building right here at home.”

This is fanciful budget math. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were funded with borrowed money, so what Obama is really asking for is an increase in domestic spending relative to the Pentagon. The United States is still running huge deficits, so none of this imagined savings would “pay down the debt” until the United States once again began running surpluses. Instead, his proposal would continue to add to the debt.​

-Bri
 
Does anyone believe 1/2 the money no longer spent at war will be used to pay down the debt?

Well, considering that we're paying for the war with borrowed money as it is, I'm not entirely sure how that works. It's a bit like paying off a credit card - by transferring the balance to another credit card. It might be a good move financially, depending on the terms, but it doesn't do squat to reduce your overall debt.
 
Seems to me that the costs of war are being paid largely to ourselves. The military salaries, the companies large and small that make guns and ammunition and vehicles and MREs...

How much unemployment will result from peace?
 
Seems to me that the costs of war are being paid largely to ourselves. The military salaries, the companies large and small that make guns and ammunition and vehicles and MREs...

How much unemployment will result from peace?

Since a lot of this money was spent in Iraq and Afghanistan the money did little to add to our economy (other than, as you note, soldier's salaries, part of which was spent there and not here).

I'm sure someone more up on economics than I am can cite the studies that show that the multiplier effect of public spending on non-military projects is greater than that of military projects.

And, as RandFan notes, there is at least the fact that at least we won't keep going that much further into debt. It's not a huge peace dividend, but to paraphrase the hawks, you have to work with the economy you have-- not the one you hope to have.
 
Well, considering that we're paying for the war with borrowed money as it is, I'm not entirely sure how that works. It's a bit like paying off a credit card - by transferring the balance to another credit card. It might be a good move financially, depending on the terms, but it doesn't do squat to reduce your overall debt.

I'd make the metaphor this way: if I've got 3 credit cards with balances and I stop adding to the balance on one of them, I'm in better shape than I would have been if I'd kept adding to it.

Or better yet, maybe I used the credit cards to finance my mortgage payments (debt to pay debt!), to pay off my car, and to pay off my boat, but I've just realized that I don't need and can't afford the boat!

No matter how you look at it, we're better off economically not spending money on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
I think there is a ROI involved with domestic spending. The wars have no ROI.

No less than unemployment payments, bridges to nowhere, etc. The money is still being directed towards salaries of people that drop the bombs or build the bombs. And the last time I checked, the Democrats argued that just giving money away to people was the best way to stimulate the economy. At least this way we're keeping people fit too. ;)
 
They all (democrats and republicans) have very similar policies, but Ron Paul favors less government, and although he is a bit extreme, it's a step in the right direction even if only for 4 years.
It's not a step in the right direction to elect a radical like Paul that only has slogans, no substance to offer.
 
You say "narrative". I say "campaign speech." "Propaganda." "Bedtime story."
They are similar. The reason I'm using 'narrative' is to try to put the problem in context. The connotation of campaign propaganda is that it is the usual empty campaign promises.

The narrative is a lot more sophisticated than simply telling people what you think they want to hear. Instead the narrative is all about triggering related neural networks. "Class warfare" for example is not a campaign promise. Calling infrastructure investment socialism is more than a campaign promise or simple propaganda.

It seems like an odd thing for a skeptic to base their political preferences on a bedtime story. On propaganda. On a campaign speech.

Why should Obama's ability to tell a good bedtime story be a good reason to vote for him? That seems like a trick only a brainwashed sheeple would fall for.
If you're talking about me, you're making a false assumption. I like the narrative because I think it's likely to play better in the 2012 election. I like the Democratic Party because it's the lesser of the evils and there is no viable other option.

For those skeptics among us on the right who don't think GW Bush's 8 years were incredibly damaging to this country, or who only now are disowning Bush and hypocritically claiming he wasn't the Republican they really supported, I ask, why are you so smitten by the Republican narrative? It's a failure. Tax cuts for the rich are not helping the economy. Food stamps for the poor are actually dollars that get recirculated when spent.

One can argue all one wants about how one thinks social safety net programs take from the rich and give to the poor. But the truth of the matter is, the rich hoarding their savings means the money is not being put back into the economy creating wealth and jobs. So take your pick, Ayn Rand's Libertarianism "it's all about me" and an economy that continues to only benefit a small minority, or investment in infrastructure, education and social programs that stimulate the economy and promote recovery.

The country was demonstrably better off under Clinton and Obama compared to the disastrous Presidency of Bush and Reagan's fake prosperity where he pumped deficit funding into the economy and pretended it was the tax cuts that made the country more prosperous. And if the Repubs weren't obstructing everything they possibly can the Democrats would have a lot more to show at the moment.

As for crony capitalism, Bush and the Repubs are the kings of crony capitalism. Obama is a lightweight.

And speaking of narratives, how do you know you've got the real Republican narrative, and not accidentally internalized the Democratic false consciousness about the Republican narrative?
Because I've been paying very close attention. Actually, the Democrats have been sadly slow and ineffective promoting their narrative.
 
Seems to me that the costs of war are being paid largely to ourselves. The military salaries, the companies large and small that make guns and ammunition and vehicles and MREs...

How much unemployment will result from peace?
I've seen studies which someone else can Google if interested that show the money we invest in the military industrial complex is very inefficient when it comes to recirculating the money in the economy. Spending tax dollars on infrastructure, education and especially money that goes into social safety nets tends to get quickly re-spent making the dollar actually spent more than once.

So if you buy a tank, there that money sits. But buy food stamps and food gets bought, then that money gets spent on transportation and farming to replace the food in the store. Maybe that's a poor summary of the phenomena but I'm pretty sure defense dollars stimulate the economy less than other kinds of spending.
 
Of course silly us, it's obvious Obama should just do exactly what the Republican's want and not work to find a reasonable compromise.

That really defines the Republican mindset - my way or the highway.

Except that you forgot to mention the fact that once they completely shut down all possibility of compromise, they then turn and loudly blame Obama for being obstructionist.
 
People with several working brain cells notice the two statements are not the same.

Right. Being willing to change entitlement programs isn't the same as refusing to do so. I thought that's what I said.

-Bri
 
Others came more recently, to study business and science and engineering, but as soon as they get their degree, we send them home to invent new products and create new jobs somewhere else.

That doesn’t make sense.
With a shortage of jobs for citizens of America any opinions on this part of the speech.
Are there not enough Americans coming out of college to fill most business , science and engineering jobs.
The typical college graduate who came to study is not going to be inventing new products.
On the other side of the coin I don't really think there is much of a shortage of these types of jobs.
I am pretty sure if a company can demonstrate they need to hire someone who is not a citizen they will not be sent home now anyway.
 
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As I told the Speaker this summer, I’m prepared to make more reforms that rein in the long term costs of Medicare and Medicaid, and strengthen Social Security, so long as those programs remain a guarantee of security for seniors.

But in return, we need to change our tax code so that people like me, and an awful lot of Members of Congress, pay our fair share of taxes.
If reforms can be made that will reign in the long term costs and strenthen social security what are we waiting for. They should be done regardless of whether or not someone is willing to change the tax code so people pay their fair share.
 
I have to admit I haven't heard him speak or debate since 2008. What slogans is he peddling today?
He hasn't changed. His two slogans are eliminate the fed and the government shouldn't restrict anything. Those are unrealistic fantasies and when Paul gets called on the real world outcome of such policies he ignores the question and repeats the slogan.

His answer to his anti-choice position: when he was a doctor he never had any women who needed an abortion to save their lives.
His answer to, "What do you do about people who can't afford health care?" In his day charities would cover the care.
And what about abolishing the Civil Rights Bill? Discrimination is just not a concern of the government.

The majority of economists dismiss his 'get rid of the fed' as completely unrealistic.
 
If reforms can be made that will reign in the long term costs and strenthen social security what are we waiting for. They should be done regardless of whether or not someone is willing to change the tax code so people pay their fair share.
It's called compromise, quaint and not a known Republican virtue, I know.

You may want talk to AlBell who in another thread yesterday reinforced the notion that Republican ideas should simply be put in place, or nothing at all. Compromise was not an option.
 
If reforms can be made that will reign in the long term costs and strenthen social security what are we waiting for. They should be done regardless of whether or not someone is willing to change the tax code so people pay their fair share.

Both are needed, but it's clear that the far left don't want to cut entitlements but want to raise revenues and the right want to cut entitlements but don't want to raise revenues. It would be pretty stupid to give in to one side or the other entirely, and therefore lose any leverage to get both done.

-Bri
 

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