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James Randi and Objectivism

...snip...

Depends. Are you actually serious, or are you going to dismiss any reference to an expert other than myself as irrelevant? If it's the latter, I'm going to go ahead and not engage you in conversation on this topic, because you're obviously not willing to actually discuss it (I'm not saying that you necessarily are--I mean that as an "If X, then Y" statement).

...snip...

I am serious that I am willing to be shown why I am wrong or have misunderstood something. But answers such as "Dr X has justified this" is not in my book showing someone why they are wrong it is nothing but a hand wave.

So why don't we go back a few steps and start this again:

stilicho said:
This is the one that's always brought up but more appropriately you have to ask how a family unit survives the non-coercion tenet.
As a married Objectivist, I'd say it works perfectly fine. Many other married O'ists--including Dr. Diana Hsieh (Ph.D. from Boulder, CO)--strongly support the concept of marriage. Dr. Hsieh has spoken on at least one occasion about her reasons for this. While she is not The One True Authority on O'ism, she's certainly no slouch when it comes to the philosophy, either, and provides at least one justification that's perfectly in line with O'ism (it provides an objective means for saying "I'm not looking for anyone--I've found someone"). Marriage may change form in an O'ist society--polygamy, for example, wouldn't be outlawed provided no fraud occurred (children are unable to concent, as are animals, so don't bother with that stupidity)--but it would certainly continue to exist.

Instead of hand waving away these concerns explain why, show us the argument, the justification from first principles and so on. That's the way to show us why we are always wrong in our assessment of her ideology.
 
Really, the entire history of capitalism?

Although you are right about one thing, just look at these little guys...

Before children were able to work in the 19th century to augment their family income, most of them died before adulthood. As soon as the industrial revolution elevated the productivity of parents, child labor began a downward spiral (but not before the politicians grabbed the issue to make their own profit from the kids).
 
The US was founded, at least in the 1770's phase, with very little involvement of political philosophy, but was mostly a legalistic argument against continued allegiance to the crown. The Declaration is mostly a list of the king's violations of the venerable Common Law.

This is a concrete bound assessment that ignores the preceding history of the philosophical contributions of The Enlightenment.
 
Before children were able to work in the 19th century to augment their family income, most of them died before adulthood. As soon as the industrial revolution elevated the productivity of parents, child labor began a downward spiral (but not before the politicians grabbed the issue to make their own profit from the kids).
Very nearly completely wrong. Congratulations.
 
So, all those slaves who were legally forced to work for the benefit of the "most creative and productive while contributing less", what was that all about?

Pay attention! Slavery is coercion by force, the very thing that never would have happened if Objectivists had been the founders.
 
Well I have to say even though I am trying to drop the snarkness I started with that you have got it the wrong way around - it is up to you to show your argument not me to guess what your argument is.
You've consistently ignored that the specific arguments being made are merely a side-issue of my original point. However, for the sake of my sanity: Dr. Hsieh argued that marriage provides an objective means of determining who's in the dating pool and who's outside of it. A person in a marriage is saying, in effect, that they are unavailable in a much more definitive fashion than, say, a person who's merely dating someone.

I would go further. Marriages are contracts between individuals, and deeply rooted, historically and legally, in finances. Marriages amount to the assumption that two people share financial burdens, operating fiscally as a single unit (obviously not entirely--they can still act individually if they so choose, after all--but the assumption can be made that things like houses or cars are the result of a mutual decision). This is particularly important when it comes to such matters as responsibility for children--after all, a parent assumes the responsibility of the child when they agree to give birth to it (and if they do not relinquish said control to someone else, which is always possible).

Rand argued that marriage should be between one man and one woman, and Piekoff continues that line of argument. Hsieh, on the other hand, is a bit more open about things. My view is, an individual can enter into whatever contracts they like, and marriage is no different. The government, because it cannot initiate force (nothing can), cannot force people to enter into only one kind of contract, nor can they dictate who can enter into it.

That aside I am not judging her arguments at all. I have not got a clue what her arguments are so I could hardly do that could I? What I was pointing out that no matter what ism/ideology people profess to follow they seem to always end up being able to justify them living the way everyone else does in their culture/society. It is akin to the very surprising fact that most Muslims are born into families whose religion was also Muslim.
This is judging her arguments. You don't know what they are, but you dismiss them because they result in her living the way everyone else does. How do you know she does? I happen to know she doesn't on a few issues, which she's very vocal about.

And can I point out that you have not yet given an argument to counter the point that someone else made about marriage and its compatibility with your chosen ideology (or if you have I've missed it) - saying that someone else has such an argument doesn't count.
Actually, it does. It's a reference to another argument. Scientists use it all the time, and I've picked up the habit in my communications. If you would have said "I don't know that--can you give me a brief overview of it?" I'd have said "Sure--here you go". Instead, you've merely demanded I offer an argument, and argued that referencing experts isn't an argument, a statement that's rediculous no matter how you look at it.
 
PAC money starts wars. Are you so naive as to think that we invaded Iraq because of WMDs, 9/11, and a desire to bring democracy to the region? You don't think that multinational oil corporations had any influence? That they didn't profit as a result?

You haven't even begun to understand the implications of forbidding the use of force in a society.

The most powerful check and balance the people would have to prevent frivolous wars is that an Objectivist government may not fund itself with taxation, because it necessitates the use of force to take values involuntarily.

So it is time for you to come to grips with the fact that corporations will be controlled by the votes of their customers' pennies, combined with the fact that the masses have more pennies than the rich do.

So the largest corporations would compete to fund government for the sake of their customers just like so much free and low cost stuff is funded for advertising and good will. Those corporations will listen to their customers long before any politician would respond to a PAC.

If the public does not want to go to war, they would not allow it to be funded.
 
I agree that's how it works in the Objectivist world. It would take several more accidents before the property owner even admitted that the problem existed. There's no NTSB or FAA to investigate the accident and probably no CVRs or FDRs either.

Consumer Reports would launch a full investigation...
 
Darat said:
I am serious that I am willing to be shown why I am wrong or have misunderstood something. But answers such as "Dr X has justified this" is not in my book showing someone why they are wrong it is nothing but a hand wave.
It's not a hand-wave. It's a reference to a complex argument made by an expert in the field. The fact that you're unfamiliar with it merely illustrates my point: People here do not understand Objectivism. Here's my reasoning, for you to critique: If you don't know what the experts in a field are saying, you obviously are not paying much attention to that field. The discussion of the experts is, in one sense, the field--thus, ignorance of what they're discussing is ignorance of the field as such. However, you could also have stopped paying attention. Which is fine--I don't pay attention to geochem, for example, and that's not irrational--but knowledge of evolving fields requires continued exposure and participation in them, even if the participation is limited to being in the audience and listening (actively, I'd say--merely HEARING is not enough in philosophy). Thus, again, if you don't know what the experts are saying you do not know the field. Objectivism is no different than any other field in this regard.

So I've quoted one person demonstrating that they are unfamiliar with basic arguments made by Rand, and now have your own words saying that you don't know what's happening in modern Objectivism. Thus, we can now conclude that TWO peopel don't know enough about Objectivism to criticize it (you're more honest, in that you at least can criticize SOME of Objectivism).

As that's my main point, and always has been, I consider that vastly more important than any discussion of specific O'ist ideas in this conversation.
 
Yet the evidence shows that this didn't happen and that it does not happen and that what actually does happen is that what you describe as "coercion" is what is required to achieve the regulation that you seem to agree is required.

This is only applicable to a society in which there are no Objectivists or Libertarians. It does not apply in the society I am referring to, because in order to exist the dominant portion of the society would have to agree with Ayn Rand. Be very cautious about second guessing their behavior on your skimpy knowledge of the philosophy and its implications.
 
This is a concrete bound assessment that ignores the preceding history of the philosophical contributions of The Enlightenment.

Yes, I've bound myself by the writings of the revolutionaries. The only one among them with a whiff of political philosopher about him is Jefferson. Of course the sea they swam in was the European civilization recently reshaped by the Enlightenment and numerous other advances of the prior two centuries.
 
MichaelM said:
If the public does not want to go to war, they would not allow it to be funded.
There's also the fact that there'd be no draft in an Objectivist society. Not an issue with Iraq, but it'd certainly have stopped Korea and Vietnam.
 
Pay attention! Slavery is coercion by force, the very thing that never would have happened if Objectivists had been the founders.
But the ethnic cleansing of the native population would have, because they didn't have a right to the land which they lived on because they didn't know what to do with it. (I'll get back to that later).

The trouble is that you actually used the founding of this nation as an illustration of objectivist principals. Perhaps you didn't mean that exactly? What did you mean?

Back to the Injuns! It seems Ms Rand had little patience for the argument of "they were here first". I wonder how she'd feel about the same argument being used against her property? I mean, a factory or a farm would be a better use of that land, just because she's there doesn't give her some "right" to it. And It's got nothing to do with the color of her skin! We just think she needs to move the hell out because she clearly doesn't know how to use her land and we do!

No, this objectivist rubbish is a little more than a college dorm room bull session. And probably the same amount of weed was consumed in fashioning it into a "philosophy". Yes, people should have rights. No, they should not be imposed upon unreasonably. But I'm not willing to trust consumer watchdog groups (which have absolutely on power of law) to fill the role of the law enforcement.
 
Terry Pratchett is near as far from Objectivist as you can get, but I think the approach of his Dwarfs could be easily adaptable:

When two dwarfs have a son*, until he is financially independent they keep a strict account of all expenses he incurs. Food, clothes, babysitting time, everything. Said son is not considered an adult member of dwarf society until he fully pays back the debt (with reasonable interest, we're not talking extortion here). At which point it's not uncommon for the parents to gift their son as much or more again, but it's the repayment that's the important bit.

*Even if their son is female. It's another dwarf thing.

No. That does not represent the Objectivist position. The child who is born unable to raise himself to self-sufficiency is a product of the actions of the parents who are in turn responsible for that state and obligated to rectify it.

In other words, they owe the child. The child owes the parents nothing other than to behave and cooperate (for his own sake) with the process. On reaching adulthood neither owes the other anything.

Now along the way, the bond that builds from their mutual values derived from each other beyond the call of obligation (if and when) usually establishes a relationship in which love rewards value received which is the currency of voluntary spiritual exchanges.

If you think about this just a moment, you will see the enormous fringe benefit of this value exchanges as the means of earning respect, friendship, and love in quelling the anxieties that arise in families and other relationships in people who are prisoners of their own belief in social obligations.
 
The only one among them with a whiff of political philosopher about him is Jefferson. Of course the sea they swam in was the European civilization recently reshaped by the Enlightenment and numerous other advances of the prior two centuries.

Now you're gettin' it.
 
The trouble is that you actually used the founding of this nation as an illustration of objectivist principals. Perhaps you didn't mean that exactly? What did you mean?

I admit in the speed with which I had to keep up with my detractors I was unable to give complete citations of all the implications.

In that quote, I only was answering the question of how a government would limit itself to preventing force. The reference to the founding of this country was meant to say that the organizational principles of 3 branches to effect checks and balances along with the limitation of government tasks to enumerated powers and no others is in the broadest of terms a viable principle with which Objectivists would have no problem. It had nothing to do with what other people did in the past.

Do not underestimate the significance of Rand's caveat that only ideas matter. If you would restrict your arguments to the validity of ideas and avoid at all costs trying to slur those ideas with the opinions and actions of persons, your arguments for or against Rand or anyone else will be lifted to a higher level and will enjoy the most serious consideration of those whom you wish to reach.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Terry Pratchett is near as far from Objectivist as you can get, but I think the approach of his Dwarfs could be easily adaptable:

When two dwarfs have a son*, until he is financially independent they keep a strict account of all expenses he incurs. Food, clothes, babysitting time, everything. Said son is not considered an adult member of dwarf society until he fully pays back the debt (with reasonable interest, we're not talking extortion here). At which point it's not uncommon for the parents to gift their son as much or more again, but it's the repayment that's the important bit.

*Even if their son is female. It's another dwarf thing.
"But profits, ma'am, well, that depends on what you're after." ~Rand, the bum's speach.

O'ism is not a philosophy about getting as much money as one can. Rather, it's a philosophy that argues that ethics should properly about living the best life one can. Sometimes that means making money. Sometimes that means spending it.

The trouble is that you actually used the founding of this nation as an illustration of objectivist principals. Perhaps you didn't mean that exactly? What did you mean?
The philosophy underpinning the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and other foundational documents to this nation are largely in agreement with Objectivist philosophy. In practice, the nation certainly violated O'ism in a number of ways, including the continuation of the practice of slavery and the way we treated the native population. The United States is the closest anywhere has come to an O'ist nation in history; but close does not mean identical, and I know of no O'ist that would argue that the USA was an O'ist nation at its foundation or any time thereafter.
 
Pay attention! Slavery is coercion by force, the very thing that never would have happened if Objectivists had been the founders.

Did you read the Ayn Rand quote regarding Native Americans? She justified the use of force to rob them of their homes by claiming that they had no right to it. It seems that if the founders had been objectivists, they would have manufactured an excuse to use force to secure slave labor by claiming that they had no right to object. It seems that to Ayn Rand, the prohibition against force only applied to those whom she did not regard as "savages".
 
No, this objectivist rubbish is a little more than a college dorm room bull session. And probably the same amount of weed was consumed in fashioning it into a "philosophy".

...and continuing from my previous reply, this kind of statement will marginalize you instantly. No honest mind will ever consider an ad hominem filled statement as a cogent reply. It will instead be recognized on its face as an act of desperation that is the equivalent of tatooing on your forehead "I have absolutely no clue what I am talking about!"

Depending on how long you have practiced this, it can take years of discipline to rid yourself of it. Been there done that long, long, ago.
 

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