• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Genesis Seal

Celtic and gaelic cauldrons desperate blah blah,
its ironic really that you seem incapable of understanding the ramifications of your claims
for the holy grail to have been encoded into the genesis seal, the originator would have had to have known in advance, that Jesus would be born
that jesus would become important
that the tableware from his last meal would become sacred
that writers in the middle ages would think the grail important even though no one had mentioned it for over 1000 years
that you would discover the secret

so are you claiming here that
1. the genesis seal is a decoder for a purported set of secret messages encoded within the text Hebrew Bible and describing prophesies and other guidance regarding the future.

I'd just like a yes/no answer on that last question please, ignore everything else if you like ?
;)
 
You do know that Parzival was based on Perceval, right? And that Eschenbach never claimed to have been witness to the events, but rather that he had heard them from another poet? And that Perceval was not an eyewitness account, either? And that no evidence exists to support either epic being anything more than fiction? And that, even if there was, both are about the Holy Grail rather than your Genesis Seal?

No, they're not unrelated. See above. Many of them are based on or inspired by others. Even those not directly related to any others are likely influenced by them, since the Holy Grail was a common legend.

Yes and no; true and false. Wolfram criticised Chretien for not making best use of his source. At the same time the German knight claimed a separate source, presented to him by one Kyot the Provencale, and written in the heathenish tongue. Of course they were both fiction, it goes without saying; so neither of them could have been an eye-witness account. And, of course they are not unrelated.

Unfortunately, some of my responses to the diverse comments of others, have become fatally intermingled, and perpetuated in follow-on posts. The only way to know what I am really saying is to read my post, headed: The Holy Grail - a plausible fiction
 
Pure Argent said:
No. Your ignorance of literary history does not constitute evidence for the Genesis Seal.

By the same token, ignorance (ie being unaware) of the Genesis Seal in scholarly circles will be found to be an serious, but avoidable barrier a complete literary history.
 
Yes and no; true and false. Wolfram criticised Chretien for not making best use of his source.

And yet Chretien himself never disclosed what this "source" might be, and there exists no evidence for Wolfram's own source having existed, either.

You're citing the equivalent of a modern found-footage movie.

Of course they were both fiction, it goes without saying; so neither of them could have been an eye-witness account.

Then why did you claim that they were?

And, of course they are not unrelated.

Then why are they evidence for this "Genesis Seal"?

By the same token, ignorance (ie being unaware) of the Genesis Seal in scholarly circles will be found to be an serious, but avoidable barrier a complete literary history.

You've given us absolutely no reason to believe this.
 
its ironic really that you seem incapable of understanding the ramifications of your claims
for the holy grail to have been encoded into the genesis seal, the originator would have had to have known in advance, that Jesus would be born
that jesus would become important
that the tableware from his last meal would become sacred
that writers in the middle ages would think the grail important even though no one had mentioned it for over 1000 years
that you would discover the secret

so are you claiming here that
1. the genesis seal is a decoder for a purported set of secret messages encoded within the text Hebrew Bible and describing prophesies and other guidance regarding the future.

I'd just like a yes/no answer on that last question please, ignore everything else if you like ?
;)

Answer: Categorically, No!
Please let's get this straight, once and for all. The Genesis Seal is one of two things:
  1. It is completely accidental. But it has been used repeatedly in the creation and/or elaboration of myths, legends and scripture.
  2. It was deliberately contrived, perhaps by judicious editing of a pre-existent text. As such, it has been used retrospectively to create, for example, a favourable history of the Jewish people with the intention of securing a prosperous future.
The Genesis Seal did not foresee Jesus. It just exhibits attributes that early NT writers found useful in weaving elaborate additional material into the stories that were already doing the rounds.
The Holy Grail was not encoded into the Genesis Seal. The Seal just happens to exhibit attributes that imaginative mediaeval authors found useful. Different authors used the same material to invent alternative details (eg two alternative versions of a sword being forged, or re-made). The fact that First and Second Century writers had already used the Genesis Seal in that way ned not have been obvious a thousand years later. The mediaeval authors may have (mistakenly) taken the Genesis Seal to be a prophetic revelation.
 
Answer: Categorically, No!
Please let's get this straight, once and for all. The Genesis Seal is one of two things:
  1. It is completely accidental. But it has been used repeatedly in the creation and/or elaboration of myths, legends and scripture.
  2. It was deliberately contrived, perhaps by judicious editing of a pre-existent text. As such, it has been used retrospectively to create, for example, a favourable history of the Jewish people with the intention of securing a prosperous future.

Or it's entirely irrelevant to any medieval literature, and you've still given us no reason to think that it isn't. Even, yes, in post #867.
 
The Genesis Seal is one of two three things:
  1. It is completely accidental. But it has been used repeatedly in the creation and/or elaboration of myths, legends and scripture.
  2. It was deliberately contrived, perhaps by judicious editing of a pre-existent text. As such, it has been used retrospectively to create, for example, a favourable history of the Jewish people with the intention of securing a prosperous future.
  3. The Genesis Seal does not exist, but is an artifact of evolutionary pattern-seeking and an obsessive need to find something in the Bible.
Ftfy.
 
Pure Argent said:
And yet Chretien himself never disclosed what this "source" might be, and there exists no evidence for Wolfram's own source having existed, either.

You're citing the equivalent of a modern found-footage movie.
As I said in my post#867, according to Professor A.T.Hatto,
Chrétien’s poem [Perceval] is the earliest extant narrative of the Grail, though he tells us that his patron Philip, Count of Flanders, had lent him its ‘book’, presumably in one or other respect a source, but a work of absolutely unknown content.
In that earlier post, I explain how ‘a work of absolutely unknown content’ becomes a definitive source.

Wolfram claimed as his own source the prime version of the tale, written in the heathenish script and given to him by one Kyot, the Provençal, who had discovered it: lying all neglected in a corner of Toledo. He had had to learn the characters’ A B C beforehand without the art of necromancy. It helped him that he was a baptized Christian – otherwise this tale would still be unknown. No infidel art would avail us to reveal the nature of the Gral and how one came to know its secrets.

Toledo was then a hot-bed of Hebrew Kabbalah, and the heathenish script could just as easily have been the Hebrew creation account as the unknown Arabic text that some authorities suggest.

Then why did you claim that they were?
I had previously said that quantitative scientific evidence is not the only kind to exist. I mentioned eye-witness evidence as an alternative (one of many). For some reason, these barely important statements have been construed as meaning I believe the Grail stories from Chrétien and Wolfram were eye-witness accounts. I do not believe that, and it is not what I meant. I am perfectly open about what I do believe. Both authors were interpreting the Genesis Seal in their individual ways.

Then why are they evidence for this "Genesis Seal"?

If they are ‘not unrelated’, then they are related. They are related by being explicable as interpretations of the Genesis Seal, because the Seal presents attributes that can be interpreted in both (and many other) ways.


You've given us absolutely no reason to believe this.

At the moment, I am the only person saying so, because I have been the only one armed with the right information. I am relying on the information reaching suitable scholarly authorities, so that they may make up their own minds.
 
As I said in my post#867, according to Professor A.T.Hatto,
Chrétien’s poem [Perceval] is the earliest extant narrative of the Grail, though he tells us that his patron Philip, Count of Flanders, had lent him its ‘book’, presumably in one or other respect a source, but a work of absolutely unknown content.
In that earlier post, I explain how ‘a work of absolutely unknown content’ becomes a definitive source.

Except that your explanation fails, as has been explained before. You're still doing nothing but speculating baselessly and giving us absolutely no reason to accept your claims.

I had previously said that quantitative scientific evidence is not the only kind to exist. I mentioned eye-witness evidence as an alternative (one of many). For some reason, these barely important statements have been construed as meaning I believe the Grail stories from Chrétien and Wolfram were eye-witness accounts.

No, you posting them in response to a post asking you to list a few eyewitness accounts is what has been construed to mean you believe them to be eyewitness accounts.

If they are ‘not unrelated’, then they are related. They are related by being explicable as interpretations of the Genesis Seal, because the Seal presents attributes that can be interpreted in both (and many other) ways.

And they're also related by being different fictional works on the same basis, one admittedly based on the other and neither requiring this Genesis Seal in order to exist. Neither does either offer any support for your theory.

At the moment, I am the only person saying so, because I have been the only one armed with the right information. I am relying on the information reaching suitable scholarly authorities, so that they may make up their own minds.

Look, do you really think that you've picked up on something that generations of literary scholars - who have undoubtedly picked apart both of those works dozens of times over - have missed over centuries of analysis? Honest question. Do you believe that?
 
Kingfisher. You stated in your post at 929 "i am perfectly open about what i do believe".

i'm delighted to hear that. In that spirit then i ask you: do YOU (ie. not other people) believe that the author(s) of Genesis had the ability to predict future events and deliberately designed his/their writings accordingly (the ability having been acquired through some supernatural means)?

I'm sure you can answer this question, given that you are being so "open".
 
Answer: Categorically, No!

Please let's get this straight, once and for all. The Genesis Seal is one of two things:
  1. It is completely accidental. But it has been used repeatedly in the creation and/or elaboration of myths, legends and scripture.
  2. It was deliberately contrived, perhaps by judicious editing of a pre-existent text. As such, it has been used retrospectively to create, for example, a favourable history of the Jewish people with the intention of securing a prosperous future.

Or it is:

3: A random artefact common to any text sequence. Nobody but you have noticed it, or at least put any significance to it.

All your correlations to literature, scripture, etc. are after the fact findings: You know the results, and pick combinations that seem relevant. In the same process, you discard or ignore combinations that don't support your thesis.

Hans​
 
Kingfisher. You stated in your post at 929 "i am perfectly open about what i do believe".

i'm delighted to hear that. In that spirit then i ask you: do YOU (ie. not other people) believe that the author(s) of Genesis had the ability to predict future events and deliberately designed his/their writings accordingly (the ability having been acquired through some supernatural means)?

I'm sure you can answer this question, given that you are being so "open".

No, I do not believe the author of the Genesis Seal had the ability to see the future. Let everyone take note.

What I do accept is that people of the past have used what they see as a remarkable phenomenon as the basis of some fanciful stories. And I include here some retrospective history.
 
Or it is:

3: A random artefact common to any text sequence. Nobody but you have noticed it, or at least put any significance to it.

All your correlations to literature, scripture, etc. are after the fact findings: You know the results, and pick combinations that seem relevant. In the same process, you discard or ignore combinations that don't support your thesis.

Hans​

You also once said:
As for your hypothesis about historical impact, it is an entirely different hypothesis, because it is absolutely detached from the discussion of purpose. As already discussed, people have been constructing imaginary patterns since the beginnings of humanity, so it is indeed possible that others have trod the same way as you, persisted in their illusion, and having happened to have power, made an imprint on history with it.

You are right that I do know the results (in advance). However, the fact that I 'pick combinations that seem relevant' only begs the question: How come such a limited pot of combinations fits the purpose? I detect a sad lack of wonder and surprise that this supposedly limited pot is able to marry together so many enigmatic, simultaneous episodes in human history.
 
No, I do not believe the author of the Genesis Seal had the ability to see the future. Let everyone take note.

What I do accept is that people of the past have used what they see as a remarkable phenomenon as the basis of some fanciful stories. And I include here some retrospective history.

how many words have you found that are linked to the grail story
can you just list them without placing them in a wall of text
challenging eh
:D
 
Some years ago, when half the world was clamouring for new angles on the DaVinci Code fiasco, I happened upon an article written by a Dr. Frank Lynn Meshberger. This persuaded me, for a time, to take a small interest in the works of Leonardo’s younger contemporary, Michelangelo.

Dr. Meshberger’s article has nothing to do with conspiracies or Grails, or even bible codes; though it does focus on a hidden meaning in a fresco of Michelangelo’s in the Sistine Chapel. The full article may be seen here:

http://www.wellcorps.com/Explaining-The-Hidden-Meaning-Of-Michelangelos-Creation-of-Adam.html

The good Doctor’s hypothesis, that Michelangelo’s Creation of Adam accurately reflects the anatomy of a human brain, is quite convincing, and mostly plausible. Though I draw the line at the idea that Michelangelo could have known anything about neural synapses.

What I think Michelangelo and Leonardo had in common was a contempt for the then Church’s dogmatic attachment to institutional ignorance. Some of their paintings are delightfully sacrilegious, though both artists needed to be cautious about waking the slumbering dragon. Their caution is one thing they undoubtedly shared in common with that earlier, faltering renaissance, marked by the rise of the Cathars, the Knights Templar and a new style of Grail Quest literature. It seems it was inevitable that the artistic class would have to take the lead in the slow march out of darkness. I went on to examine other works by Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel and found further evidence of his unorthodox outlook. For example, his Original Sin (also including The Banishment from the Garden of Eden) is a subtle allegory for oral sex. So, the anatomy revealed in The Creation of Adam is not the only kind of hidden meaning in Michelangelo’s paintings. But I do not, for one second, believe that either Leonardo or Michelangelo was privy to any deep secret, or involved in a meaningful, concerted conspiracy.

Then I discovered that my own thoughts about Michelangelo’s contempt for the Church had been anticipated in a work of fiction: A Guerra das Imaginações, by Doc Comparato (only available in Portuguese).

It was relatively recently that I began to think more on Michelangelo’s (and Leonardo’s) knowledge of human anatomy, and what other insights into the human condition might have been known even before their time. For example, in the biblical creation account of Genesis 1, Man is created in God’s image, but is created as both male and female. Are we to understand that those were male and female bodies? After all, if God isn’t a physical body then how can a physical man and woman be in his image? I started to wonder if the proper understanding might not have more to do with male and female ways of thinking – even, perhaps, the difference between left-brain and right-brain processes. There was surely nothing to stop astute observers in ancient times noticing the effects on behaviour patterns caused by head injuries and brain damage.

I admit I didn’t come to this idea directly; it dawned only slowly while I was contemplating the Genesis Seal. For example, the well-known Tree of Life diagram of the Kabbalah, which attempts to map the attributes of God, has a left column with mostly feminine attributes and a right column with mostly masculine attributes. On the left we see ‘understanding’ and ‘mercy’, while on the right there are ‘wisdom’ (ie logic) and ‘justice’. So I shall now home in on the concepts of wisdom and understanding, which this Tree of Life contrasts as a matched pair.

The words ‘wisdom’ and ‘understanding’ are used together in a very instructive way at the end of Revelation Chapter 13, thus:
This calls for wisdom; let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
In my post #654, I suggested that the number 666 is used there to represent the physical body (the beast), a condition of human life that applies equally to everyone - the beast in us all - rather than a specific, evil individual. The Cathars appear to have fully embraced this interpretation.

The whole of Revelation 13 is an unmitigated, beastly vision, which concludes with the number 666. Whereas Revelation 14 opens with an altogether more compassionate outlook, though it does soon introduce a balancing dose of divine justice. My reference to balance here is by no means spurious, especially given the pivotal position of the number 666. I am inclined to suggest that the inner balance of Revelation 14 is intended as the counterpart of Genesis 1:27, where man is made to a pattern of both male and female attributes. What, then, does the Genesis Seal have to say about this point of view?

It seems to me the Genesis Seal could have been the sole model (story board) on which Genesis 1:27 and Revelation 13-14 were all based. See below the G1 numerical view of the Seal, in which the number 666 (the body) occurs in the lower part of the vertical diagonal. Then the bi-lateral halves of the square are a fair analogue of the left and right halves of the brain (the Tree of Knowledge). The two halves of the brain tend to apportion the functions of logic and creativity, which are characteristics that typically emerge in different proportions in men and women.



The position of the vertical 666 in the G1 Square is also reminiscent of the same number placed at the transition from Revelation 13 to 14. But, as part of a prominent Y-shaped artefact in G1, it is equally redolent of the brain-stem, through which both sides of the brain are connected to the rest of the body (beast).

The transition from the G1 Square to G2 also reflects a merging of male and female attributes in an ideal balanced blend. Where the G1 Square had the prominent Y-shape, in G2 its three upper elements are replaced by the letters of rechem (a womb) (see illustration below). In addition, where the prominent Y in G1 was composed entirely of the letter vav, in G2 eight of those letters combine into a single meandering sequence that passes through the womb in two stages. The same meandering sequence also resembles a shape seen in the 4x7 matrix obtained from Genesis 1:1 that I likened to a serpent. While an alternative path (obeying the same rule) in that matrix is a stylised image of human male genitalia. The combination of serpent and genitals is yet another allusion to the Tree of Knowledge incident in the Garden of Eden.



It is my own conclusion that the Eden incident and early Christian beliefs were not about original sin or its forgiveness. They are more to do with a type of knowledge that should be accessible to anyone who demonstrates the right kind of balanced outlook. This is an outlook that would have to manifest as a willing demonstration of both teaching and learning, respectively active male and receptive female characteristics. According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ represented both of those characteristics in his simultaneous, symbolic roles as Shepherd and Lamb. The Cathars, however, would have seen him not as The Christ, but as a Christ such as anyone may aspire to become.
 
how many words have you found that are linked to the grail story
can you just list them without placing them in a wall of text
too challenging for you eh
:D
 
how many words have you found that are linked to the grail story
can you just list them without placing them in a wall of text
challenging eh
:D
As a first stab, the obvious words are:
womb womb womb aka maiden maiden
sword sword
spear
bread
wine
bulrush

The womb/maiden obviously has multiple uses in the literature. But the words themselves are only static components.

Then there is the symbolic distribution of the letter vav, that imitates water, first as a lake, then as a river (named Lac).

The word for sword is distributed in the G1 Square, but becomes complete in G2. Hence the forging in one story, and the re-making in the other.

Then there is the image of a menorah (candelabrum) that also contains the image of a chalice.

The rest is down to the imagination of each author, leading to variations that can only be explained by their common source and inspiration.
 
As a first stab, the obvious words are:
womb womb womb aka maiden maiden
sword sword
spear
bread
wine
bulrush

The womb/maiden obviously has multiple uses in the literature. But the words themselves are only static components.

Then there is the symbolic distribution of the letter vav, that imitates water, first as a lake, then as a river (named Lac).

The word for sword is distributed in the G1 Square, but becomes complete in G2. Hence the forging in one story, and the re-making in the other.

Then there is the image of a menorah (candelabrum) that also contains the image of a chalice.

The rest is down to the imagination of each author, leading to variations that can only be explained by their common source and inspiration.

so, less than ten words from the seal allowed the authors to come up with the main themes of the grail story and the rest they filled in with their imaginations ?
:confused:
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom