Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

[Robrob]

You are the one telling the world it is primer paint yet you have been totally ineffectual in providing valid proof.

Same question to you.

Please cite an example of a steel primer paint designed to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

You do realize there's no paint in the world designed NOT to ignite at over 800 degrees Fahrenheit?

 

[carlitos]

....
Hematite is another option. ...

I bought a hematite necklace from a vendor on Venice Beach. He told me that it would "keep me grounded." I have no reason to disbelieve this.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Please cite an example of steel primer paint designed to to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.


MM

Designed??? Show that these characteristic were design parameters of the paint.......

 

[Robrob]

Designed??? Show that these characteristic were design parameters of the paint.......

I'd like to know what paint won't ignite at 430 C ?

 

[alexi_drago]

Please cite an example of steel primer paint designed to to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.
MM

I can't, my initial point was that paints for things like this are not off the shelf and are created for individual contracts specifications and will also depend on current technology and knowledge.

Some of the modern materials used for fire protection react at around 400C, a point before the steel starts to lose it's strength.

I'm wondering something now, it's been said around here that the energy given out by painted on thermite would barely affect the steel underneath but one of the products from the thermite reaction is Aluminium oxide which along with silica is used as a thermal insulator. Is it at all possible that the products of a thermite reaction could provide thermal protection?

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I can't, my initial point was that paints for things like this are not off the shelf and are created for individual contracts specifications and will also depend on current technology and knowledge.

Some of the modern materials used for fire protection react at around 400C, a point before the steel starts to lose it's strength.

I'm wondering something now, it's been said around here that the energy given out by painted on thermite would barely affect the steel underneath but one of the products from the thermite reaction is Aluminium oxide which along with silica is used as a thermal insulator. Is it at all possible that the products of a thermite reaction could provide thermal protection?

Just theoretically: if products of thermite reaction can have substantially higher volume/lower specific density (foamy character) than original thermite and "stay on place", they may perhaps provide some thermal protection (thanks to the air "bubbles" in this matter, but, on the other hand, iron formed by this reaction is a good heat conductor (as well as aluminium oxide)).

But this is not really relevant here. I'm forced to repeat that 20-30 microns thin layer of any paint (or any known material) can't serve as a fire protection. It can serve only as a corrosion protection. Therefore nobody (no manufacturer) really cares if such paint layer burns/decomposes/degrades at high temperatures around 400-550 degrees C. Such processes are simply inevitable, since any common paint contains some binder based on organic polymers. Even silicone polymers and fluoropolymers, designed as comparatively thermally stable materials, can't survive such temperatures. (I'm not speaking here let's say about some very special and expensive coatings - e.g. ceramics - used e.g. in space technology etc.).
Perhaps you are right and some modern coatings are designed to expand during burning to provide some kind or protection. But, we are basically interested only in those two particular red primer paints used in WTC1 and WTC2 ("Laclede" and "Tnemec" brand") and they were clearly intended to provide only "normal" corrosion protection at low temperatures.

 

[funk de fino]

Please cite an example of a steel primer paint designed to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

Asking that question was bad enough. Then you repeated it. Wowzer, what a belter that is. Saved for prosperity too. Even by this forums standards, that is up there with the worst.

 

[cjnewson88]

Something just occurred to me.. There still remains a buttload of WTC steel stored at JFK Airport. I'm sure a lot of it still has primer paint on it. Whats stopping people from trying to gain access to scrape off a bit of primer paint from the steel and testing it against chips found in the dust??

 

[Oystein]

Something just occurred to me.. There still remains a buttload of WTC steel stored at JFK Airport. I'm sure a lot of it still has primer paint on it. Whats stopping people from trying to gain access to scrape off a bit of primer paint from the steel and testing it against chips found in the dust??

Could you research who to contact if we want to know what's still there, and how to apply for retrieval of such samples? I am sure you can't just go there amnd take a little something home.

What we need is a piece of floor joist from WTC1 or 2 with the paint still intact, that has not experienced serious temperatures. I guess it won't be easy to find such a piece.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Something just occurred to me.. There still remains a buttload of WTC steel stored at JFK Airport. I'm sure a lot of it still has primer paint on it. Whats stopping people from trying to gain access to scrape off a bit of primer paint from the steel and testing it against chips found in the dust??

Thanks, but this has been already discussed here. Unfortunately (according to Lefty and NIST reports), it seems that remaining widely deformed floor trusses elements available in Hangar 17 in JFK (e.g. in so called "WTC meteorite) have almost no primer paint preserved on them. I think that some chips of paint might be still available there and it would be interesting to compare them with red chips from the dust, but we should be happy enough with analyses of dust particles planned by Jim Millette.
Anyway, absence of paint on floor trusses simultaneously means that this paint must be abundant in the dust, which is one of our important clues that Laclede paint is an excellent candidate as a source of Bentham chips (a) to (d)

 

[Oystein]

Thanks, but this has been already discussed here. Unfortunately (according to Lefty and NIST reports), it seems that remaining widely deformed floor trusses elements available in Hangar 17 in JFK (e.g. in so called "WTC meteorite) have almost no primer paint preserved on them. I think that some chips of paint might be still available there and it would be interesting to compare them with red chips from the dust, but we should be happy enough with analyses of dust particles planned by Jim Millette.
Anyway, absence of paint on floor trusses simultaneously means that this paint must be abundant in the dust, which is one of our important clues that Laclede paint is an excellent candidate as a source of Bentham chips (a) to (d)

Ivan, I think you accept some things too soon

a) I am not sure if anybody has looked very much at the paint on the floor trusses in the course of the NIST studies. Do you have a source on that? Paint has rarely been an issue at all in their work. It is mentioned primarily in connection with adhesion of fire protection. And that they looked at the way Tnemec behaves at various temperatures to determine how hot some columns got. I seem to remember a remark that they had a good number of perimeter columns with Tnemec on them to study, but only few core columns, and I think this was explained with heat degeneration in the rubble. Anyway, back to my point: If nobody has specifically looked for intact paint om floor trusses, then we just don't know if none is left.

b) I for one would be a lot happier if we could test LaClede paint. I'd have prefered that over a repeat of the dust analysis, mainly because the dust analysis has been done, albeit imperfectly, and the paint analysis has not. It would give a lot more strength to our LaClede-theory if we had actual specimen and could show they produce the same results as Harrit e.al. (or it would refute the theory, if we couldn't).

c) Absence of paint on debris doesn't necessarily mean it was knocked of during the collapse. Lots of it could have vanished later in the debris pile as it experienced high temps.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Ivan, I think you accept some things too soon

a) I am not sure if anybody has looked very much at the paint on the floor trusses in the course of the NIST studies. Do you have a source on that? Paint has rarely been an issue at all in their work. It is mentioned primarily in connection with adhesion of fire protection. And that they looked at the way Tnemec behaves at various temperatures to determine how hot some columns got. I seem to remember a remark that they had a good number of perimeter columns with Tnemec on them to study, but only few core columns, and I think this was explained with heat degeneration in the rubble. Anyway, back to my point: If nobody has specifically looked for intact paint om floor trusses, then we just don't know if none is left.

b) I for one would be a lot happier if we could test LaClede paint. I'd have prefered that over a repeat of the dust analysis, mainly because the dust analysis has been done, albeit imperfectly, and the paint analysis has not. It would give a lot more strength to our LaClede-theory if we had actual specimen and could show they produce the same results as Harrit e.al. (or it would refute the theory, if we couldn't).

c) Absence of paint on debris doesn't necessarily mean it was knocked of during the collapse. Lots of it could have vanished later in the debris pile as it experienced high temps.

Oystein, as you perhaps remember, it was me who had several times asked here if anybody from the USA could try to collect some pieces of paint from floor trusses stored in Hangar 17 (or to write some official inquiry) No answer followed. Of course it would be interesting to analyze paint from floor trusses, but it would be a lot of additional work for Jim Millette (and we cannot expect that much for 1000 bucks, I think). And, first of all, somebody should make this inquiry for getting samples (perhaps Chris, who has been so far so successful in contacting proper experts and persons).

As concerns evidence that Laclede paint was mostly not preserved on floor trusses, I have not found any direct info in NIST reports, but look to the long Table E-1 named Paint mapping data in this report. There is a lot of info on paints available on various steel elements, but not single one example of paint available on floor trusses elements is mentioned. Of course it is not proof, but perhaps some hint. Look also to the Figures 18 and 19 in this report. I was not sure if there is some preserved paint visible, but Lefty wrote he thinks that almost all he sees on such photos of trusses is the rust (if I remember correctly).
You are anyway right that my claim in this regard is/was premature and not really supported with a good evidence

 

[Oystein]

Oystein, as you perhaps remember, it was me who had several times asked here if anybody from the USA could try to collect some pieces of paint from floor trusses stored in Hangar 17 (or to write some official inquiry) No answer followed. Of course it would be interesting to analyze paint from floor trusses, but it would be a lot of additional work for Jim Millette (and we cannot expect that much for 1000 bucks, I think). And, first of all, somebody should make this inquiry for getting samples (perhaps Chris, who has been so far so successful in contacting proper experts and persons).

I am all for repeating that request , so yes, anybody who can help us secure a paint sample from the floor joists, be welcomee!

Chris' objective with regard to dust testing has been different from mine from the start. He goes after the question "thermite or not?", my question is "LaClede primer or not?". I hope that Jim's analysis will identify the pigments and give us some good data to characterize the organic matrix; so I think the study will further my objective, and that's why I am supporting it financially and have it discussed in "my" thread.
But Jim should not conflate the two objectives. It's Chris's call, he's dug up the lab and made it happen, so I am defering to his objective. If we could get hold of actual paint chips, we'd have to do a new study, and either find volunteers who do it for me (maybe some guys at some university in some small country in central Europe? ), or pay for the tests. Basically, at this point (before Jim's paper is out) I'd ask for a repeat of the things that Harrot e.al. did: SE, BSE, photographs in the magnifications as they did in Fig., 2, 5, 8, 9; XEDS spectra of red and gray layer as a whole; XEDS map of Si, Al, Fe, O and C; XEDS focussed major pigments; check if attracted by magnet; figure out ignition point in DSC-like device. After Jim's analysis, maybe also do what he does (FTIR, TEM...).
Buuuut that's thinking quite far ahead: We just don't have paint samples yet.

As concerns evidence that Laclede paint was mostly not preserved on floor trusses, I have not found any direct info in NIST reports, but look to the long Table E-1 named Paint mapping data in this report. There is a lot of info on paints available on various steel elements, but not single one example of paint available on floor trusses elements is mentioned. Of course it is not proof, but perhaps some hint. Look also to the Figures 18 and 19 in this report. I was not sure if there is some preserved paint visible, but Lefty wrote he thinks that almost all he sees on such photos of trusses is the rust (if I remember correctly).
You are anyway right that my claim in this regard is/was premature and not really supported with a good evidence

We don't know at this point why they only looked at columns. Maybe there is an explanation in NCSTAR-13C, but, alas, my copy of that document is damaged, and I can't download it from the NIST website, don't know why

Figures 18 and 19? Uhm in the 1.3C Appendix F? Frankly, I can't tell rust from paint in the photos.

In Fig. 19 (page 205 of the PDF), there are two arrows. One is pointing down. If you follow that arrow beyond the truss chord that it is actually pointing to towards the edge of the image, there are two chords (diagonal in the photo with a slant like this: \) which look mostly lighter red and smoother than most of the other material that is darker and with a definitely coarse, rusty texture. I believe that could be our paint.

 

[cjnewson88]

Could you research who to contact if we want to know what's still there, and how to apply for retrieval of such samples? I am sure you can't just go there and take a little something home.

I would guess it would be somewhat difficult, I'll have a look at what I can, however the best way would be if anyone knows someone who lives in the area, go down the the airport and inquire who owns hanger 17, and then go to them direct with your reasons.

edit: according to wiki JFK is owned by the city of new york and operated by the port authorities.

 

[alexi_drago]

Just theoretically: if products of thermite reaction can have substantially higher volume/lower specific density (foamy character) than original thermite and "stay on place", they may perhaps provide some thermal protection (thanks to the air "bubbles" in this matter, but, on the other hand, iron formed by this reaction is a good heat conductor (as well as aluminium oxide)).

But this is not really relevant here. I'm forced to repeat that 20-30 microns thin layer of any paint (or any known material) can't serve as a fire protection. It can serve only as a corrosion protection. Therefore nobody (no manufacturer) really cares if such paint layer burns/decomposes/degrades at high temperatures around 400-550 degrees C. Such processes are simply inevitable, since any common paint contains some binder based on organic polymers. Even silicone polymers and fluoropolymers, designed as comparatively thermally stable materials, can't survive such temperatures. (I'm not speaking here let's say about some very special and expensive coatings - e.g. ceramics - used e.g. in space technology etc.).
Perhaps you are right and some modern coatings are designed to expand during burning to provide some kind or protection. But, we are basically interested only in those two particular red primer paints used in WTC1 and WTC2 ("Laclede" and "Tnemec" brand") and they were clearly intended to provide only "normal" corrosion protection at low temperatures.

underlining mine

Why is aluminium oxide used in furnace insulation?

http://www.ijcea.org/papers/108-A530.pdf

Recent reports have been made of innovative ways to design thermal resistant coatings; for example, titanium esters in combination with aluminum flakes have been incorporated into binders that resist temperatures up to 400ºC. Above this temperature “burn off” occurs and a complex coating of titanium aluminum is formed that deposits on the substrate and enhances thermal resistance up to 800ºC

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I would guess it would be somewhat difficult, I'll have a look at what I can, however the best way would be if anyone knows someone who lives in the area, go down the the airport and inquire who owns hanger 17, and then go to them direct with your reasons.

edit: according to wiki it is owned by the city of new york and operated by the port authorities.

Well, cjnewson88, I think that telling people in charge in Hangar 17 that we'd like to have samples of this paint from trusses to falsify one insane 911 conspiracy theory wouldn't be fruitful I made the same mistake when I tried to contact PPG Industries (probable manufacturer of "Laclede paint"); they simply haven't answered, quite apparently for this reason.

Oystein, I have always thought/claimed that not all, but "the most" of red primer paint seems to be stripped off the floor trusses. There are anyway several reasons why just this paint was mostly not preserved on steel and they have been pointed e.g. by Lefty in his posts. But you are right, I/we have no direct evidence. A kind of evidence should follow in principle later from the "statistical analysis" of the abundance of various red chips in the dust...

 

[Ivan Kminek]

underlining mine

Why is aluminium oxide used in furnace insulation?

http://www.ijcea.org/papers/108-A530.pdf


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I think that reason is simple: Aluminium oxide can withstand very high temperatures, so it is suitable as an material for such furnaces (e.g.). It has melting point 2072 degrees C. Quote from Wiki: "Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity (30 Wm⁻1K⁻¹". This is comparable with the thermal conductivity of some metals, e.g., see here.

Thanks for the linked paper, it looks interesting, but we should perhaps concentrate mostly to these old paints of our interest and not to the current progress in the field of coating technology.

 

[Oystein]

Well, cjnewson88, I think that telling people in charge in Hangar 17 that we'd like to have samples of this paint from trusses to falsify one insane 911 conspiracy theory wouldn't be fruitful I made the same mistake when I tried to contact PPG Industries (probable manufacturer of "Laclede paint"); they simply haven't answered, quite apparently for this reason.

I e-mailed NIST about access to floor joists with the same kind of openness, and likewise never received an answer
Would be better to pick up a phone and nag them in a friendly way.

I don't think that simply going to the Hangar will open any doors. If they are serious about chain of custody, they won't let any passerby in, and if they are not, we're in trouble.

Oystein, I have always thought/claimed that not all, but "the most" of red primer paint seems to be stripped off the floor trusses. There are anyway several reasons why just this paint was mostly not preserved on steel and they have been pointed e.g. by Lefty in his posts. But you are right, I/we have no direct evidence. A kind of evidence should follow in principle later from the "statistical analysis" of the abundance of various red chips in the dust...

Yeah. In the end we can only make the best use of the evidence that we have.

 

[alexi_drago]

I think that reason is simple: Aluminium oxide can withstand very high temperatures, so it is suitable as an material for such furnaces (e.g.). It has melting point 2072 degrees C. Quote from Wiki: "Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity (30 Wm−1K−1[5])"

Thanks for the linked paper, but we should concentrate here mostly to these old paints of our interest and not to the current progress in the field of coating technology.

Yes, but if a paint designed for environmental protection was found to have slightly better performance in a fire than other similarly designed paints then it would be a preferred choice whether it was understood or not.

So I'm still wondering if the residue from this burning paint, possibly with the products of a thermitic reaction, could offer some (even only slight) increase in heat/fire protection opposed to paint that just burnt away or didn't react until a higher temperature.

 

[Oystein]

I think that reason is simple: Aluminium oxide can withstand very high temperatures, so it is suitable as an material for such furnaces (e.g.). It has melting point 2072 degrees C. Quote from Wiki: "Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity (30 Wm−1K−1[5])"

Thanks for the linked paper, it looks interesting, but we should perhaps concentrate mostly to these old paints of our interest and not to the current progress in the field of coating technology.

Agreed.
Also, that paper says "aluminium flakes", not "aluminium oxide flakes"
Also, there probably is neither aluminium nor aluminium oxide in the red-gray chips (a)-(d). Instead, they contain aluminium silicate.