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Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

OK:o) Let me remind that Sunstealer thinks that gray layers are basically "micaceous iron oxide" and this stuff can be magnetic, see here or here (micaceous iron oxide seems to be obtained by "magnetic separation" in the second link). But I am fully aware that no generalizations or "cherry-picking" of links could be recommended in this "metallurgic matter".

IIRC, Sunstealer later retracted that opinion. In april 2009, he thought that the gray layer was primer (with MIO) and the red layer paint that was painted on the primer.
It turned out that the gray layer is just iron oxide with a trace of Mn.

So still the request is open: Can someone document that the iron oxides that form on the surface of A36 or A242 steel (the main grade specified for the floor trusses) typically tend to be attracted by a magnet?
Currently I even fail to find a specification for A242 (which is not in use any longer)...
 
Just a reminder to myself:
Yep. I found the same info: "Grind: #4 Hegman Gauge" in the LaClede primer spec means "coarsest pigments are up to 50µm"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegman_gauge (explains that coarsest pigments count)
http://www.gardco.com/pages/dispersion/fg/finenessofgrind.cfm (has a scale to transkate from Hegman to mils and µm)
http://www.elektrophysikusa.com/files//501fog.pdf (describes in detail how it's measured)

Note however: At a film thickness of only 25µm, particle size of 50µm seems odd, to put it mildly. I would expect that max. particle size should be at most film thickness, and typical particle size maybe an order of magnitude less.


The best explanation of "Gloss" I found here - albeit without any hints about what it means for paint properties at the mikron-level: http://www.gloss-meters.com/GlossIntro.html#1 (several pages).
Note that one important property of paint on steel beams is a coarse surface that allows construction workers to step on them without slipping even when wet.

# oysteinbookmark

Oystein, I posted this note on Hegman gauge of paint glosses in the "prehistory" of this thread, when we have been trying to gather and understand as much as info about Laclede primer (and paints generally) as possible. Currently, I think it is not necessary to go into such details, since direct research on real red(-gray) chips can identify "our" paint (or paints) experimentally. Perhaps some percentage of quite big pigment particles (exceeding by size even cross-section of the paint layer) are even welcome. Who knows.

Liberty: Sorry, but we don't care here about microspheres found in the dust. This thread is on red-gray paint chips. If you think that those microspheres are somehow connected with CD of WTC, just try to prove it. But not here.

alexi_drago: Most of us think that you are right:cool: Just note: in Bentham chips (a) to (d), not only tiny particles of iron oxide were present, but also substantially larger particles containing Al, Si and O were found; I think that these Si-Al-O particles mostly contributed to the roughness/gloss of the paint layer, not iron oxide stuff.
 
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IIRC, Sunstealer later retracted that opinion. In april 2009, he thought that the gray layer was primer (with MIO) and the red layer paint that was painted on the primer.
It turned out that the gray layer is just iron oxide with a trace of Mn.

Aha. I expected that (gray) micaceous iron oxide can be formed as a kind of "rust" on the steel. If not, I was on a wrong track:rolleyes: I am no metallurgist.
 
alexi_drago: Most of us think that you are right:cool: Just note: in Bentham chips (a) to (d), not only tiny particles of iron oxide were present, but also substantially larger particles containing Al, Si and O were found; I think that these Si-Al-O particles mostly contributed to the roughness/gloss of the paint layer, not iron oxide stuff.

Also from searching around about paint pigments, Al is included in protective paints as a heat/solar reflector, usually in the form of flakes or plates instead of powder as the surface area makes it more effective.

I see nothing at all exotic about the material, and it seems that it's composed of things commonly found in protective paints, and Jones' only 'proof' that it's not just paint is that it's properties don't match those of another known paint. I can think of several reasons why a low resistance coating might be specified for the towers but it seems to be beyond Jones that paints and their properties can and usually are in cases like this tailored to suit specific requirements.
 
Oystein: Sorry, I am a beginner in metallurgy:cool: Perhaps I will repeat things which are apparent and have been discussed many times here on JREF, but still: If the gray layers are not "micaceous" iron(III) oxide, they could be some kind of "black rust", "black iron oxide", Fe3O4, simply a kind of magnetite or so. And such oxides are magnetic. Or am I wrong? I have found some info here and here. According to links like this one , black rust is formed when an access of oxygen to iron/steel is limited, what could be perhaps "our case", since steel surface was protected with Laclede primer.
I think that the exact molar ratio between Fe and O cannot be calculated from XEDS spectra of gray layers in Bentham paper and they can be both Fe2O3 and Fe3O4 (or some mixture). But judging from the color, they should be mostly Fe3O4.
 
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"...I see nothing at all exotic about the material, and it seems that it's composed of things commonly found in protective paints, and Jones' only 'proof' that it's not just paint is that it's properties don't match those of another known paint. I can think of several reasons why a low resistance coating might be specified for the towers but it seems to be beyond Jones that paints and their properties can and usually are in cases like this tailored to suit specific requirements."
Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM
 
Totally irrelevant to what happened at the WTC. You guys are good at that over here.

Lets take a close look at these posts:

You: "Someone please post a video of an explosion that occuered with no ignition or spark to set it off please. I want to see that."

Me (a couple minutes later posts a video of an explosive failure of a pressure vessel of which there are dozens on You Tube and an entire segment of Mythbusters ) "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_Wrm-Ns0I"

You: "Totally irrelevant to what happened at the WTC. You guys are good at that over here."

The world: FACE PALM.

/by the way, beyond the fact that it directly responds to your request (by the way, you are WELCOME), it also shows that "explosion" does not necessarily mean "explosives"
 
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Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

Some fire protection systems are expected to react, some paints or primers react, burn or produce gasses and expand to form a thicker insulating layer to offer more protection to the steel.
 
"Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres."
"Some fire protection systems are expected to react, some paints or primers react, burn or produce gasses and expand to form a thicker insulating layer to offer more protection to the steel."

Please cite an example of steel primer paint designed to to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

wtccipignitioncomp2ar1.jpg


MM
 
Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

Not expected by whom? And why?

What is expected instead?

Regarding the 430°C: Is there any other (higher or lower) temperature where steel primer is expected to ignite, and if so what is that temperature?
Or is there no temperature at which any steel primer will ignite?

Regarding the residue containing iron-rich spheres:
Do you understand that the red layers of the chips are mostly organic matrix which will largeky disintegrate to volatile things like CO2 and water?
Do you understand that of the other materials, iron oxide dominates as the gray layer is almost entirely iron oxide, and the red layers contains significant iron oxide?
If you have understood these simple facts, please tell us what you woukd expect about the residue:
Would the redisue be poor or rich in iron, given that the non-volatile portion of the chips is dominated by iron oxide?
Which shape would the residues assume after cooling? Cubic? Tetrahedic? Or more spheric? Or do minerals, when they react chemically with heat, generally retain whatever shape they had? Please give reasons for your expectations!


While you are thinking about supporting your claim or retracting it, you might be interested in the fact that Steven E. Jones has long maintained the opinion that thermite can't ignite at as low as 430°C, which kind of refutes the hypothesis that these chips are some kind of thermite:
SE Jones said:
It is important to note that initiating the thermite reaction requires temperatures well above those achieved by burning jet fuel or office materials
And please note that Harrit e.al. (2009) have cited data on real nano-thermite that shows that nano-thermite does not ignite below 500°C and is thus not expected to ignite at 430°C:
ActiveThermiticMaterial_Fig29.jpg

(Fig. 29 of Harrit e.al.: "Active Thermitic Material...")



So since the chips are demonstrably (using data and quotes by Harrit, Jones and friends only) not thermite of any kind, and if, as you claim, they are not paint, what are they? Do you have any constructive ideas?
 
So since the chips are demonstrably (using data and quotes by Harrit, Jones and friends only) not thermite of any kind, and if, as you claim, they are not paint, what are they? Do you have any constructive ideas?

This is where most truthers can't resist an appeal to magic instead of presenting constructive ideas.
 
Please cite an example of steel primer paint designed to to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4021/wtccipignitioncomp2ar1.jpg

MM
Does thermite puff up? How does it do that? It looks they have vermiculite in their dust. Instead of boom, you got puff.

Big question, the action question.
When will you have enough stuff to get the Pulitzer? When will you take some action instead of regurgitating failed claims so insane and stupid no one takes 911 truth to be more than paranoid conspiracy theorists who fail?
 
Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

Neither is thermite, or nanothermite. In fact, both require a magnesium lignition source.

Go back to fail one, and start again. Do not pass go, do not collect 10 more signatures.
 
triforcharity said:
Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

Neither is thermite, or nanothermite. In fact, both require a magnesium lignition source. Go back to fail one, and start again. Do not pass go, do not collect 10 more signatures.
:dl:
 
"Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit et al discovered properties which represented significant proof that the red chips could not possibly be primer paint.

Steel primer paint is not expected to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres."
"...Not expected by whom? And why?

What is expected instead?..."

You are the one telling the world it is primer paint yet you have been totally ineffectual in providing valid proof.

Same question to you.

Please cite an example of a steel primer paint designed to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM
 
You are the one telling the world it is primer paint yet you have been totally ineffectual in providing valid proof.

MM

I seem to remember a study that will be started soon.

Are you impatient? Worried about what an independent review will do to your boys? If you were confident in their work, why would you be? Their work is solid, right?
 
You are the one telling the world it is primer paint yet you have been totally ineffectual in providing valid proof.

Same question to you.

Please cite an example of a steel primer paint designed to ignite at 430 C and leave a residue containing iron-rich spheres.

MM

I asked first. You made a claim about expectations. Back it up. I seem to remember that Harrit e.al. did burn some (unidentified) paint. So paint is expected to burn.
If the paint chip (and the steel flake it came with) contains lots of iron, its residue is expected to contain lots of iron.
When something is burned, its residues are expected to not retain the exact shape.
An energetically preferred shape after cooling is spherical.

So which of these expectations is wrong, and why?
 

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