Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[R.A.F.]

The point is Loss Leader that it was NOT SAFE to inhale and ingest poop...

Tell me once again why we are supposed to blindly accept your unevidenced opinions?

 

[Agatha]

The thing is, Patrick, we all inhale and ingest small amounts of faecal material every day. Very few of us get ill from doing so. Flush toilets are a relatively new invention, as are antibacterial cleaners, and yet the human race has managed to survive for thousands of years.

There were no flush toilets on the Niña, the Pinta or the Santa Maria, and I can guarantee that several of the crew would have been suffering from infectious diseases. Below the decks in confined spaces the crew would have been at very high risk of inhaling and ingesting infective faecal material, and yet the voyage continued. Because as Loss Leader explains above, the rewards outweighed the risks.

 

[Erock]

What is the increased risk of debilitating illness from ingesting feces when sealed in a confined space with two other people as opposed to being on earth? What is that risk when the people have first been tested for infectious diseases and then isolated from known vectors?

I want to know exactly what Patrick thinks happened!

Does he contend that Borman took a dump in the cabin without the collection container? Does he think it splattered everywhere in zero g?

Liquid tends to be clearly visible in zero g, if it has been expelled, it has momentum that will carry it to a surface.

It does not disintigrate and atomise - surface tension without gravity is a strong enough force. It would be clearly visible, fairly easy to mop up with towels and I suspect the pong would be the most pressing 'problem'

I can't help but be extremely frustrated at this whole thread. It is just a facepalm in every post, and a headshake at every rebuttal ignored.

 

[Tomblvd]

I figured out the perfect way to help you understand. Forget about x and y for a moment. Ask yourself if you think it is "safe" to inhale and ingest infected stool????



There you go....it's gotta' be fake. ALL OF IT....

I pointed this out to you earlier, but you, not having any medical expertise, apparently didn't understand.

I'll try again.

Anytime you use a bathroom with a previously-used toilet in it, you are ingesting fecal matter, along with other nasty stuff. It is blasted out of the toilet during use and when flushing (which is why you should ALWAYS shut the lid prior to flushing, OK Patrick?); it then lingers in the air and on surfaces for many days, depending on the specific bacteria. That is the way it is.

 

[SUSpilot]

Patrick: pay attention. I asked you a question. How did I lock the gear down in an airplane I wasn't even flying by just asking the pilot if the navigation lights were on?

Thats the same way John Aaron could diagnose a problem via telephone.

I rarely quote myself on forums, but I am this time.

Patrick, I've politely, albeit pointedly, asked you a reasonable question. It is related to how John Aaron could diagnose a problem via telephone. Like a good mystery writer, I've given you all of the clues, but not the answer. You've even been given hints by others how it this kind of thing can be done. Could I have some sort of answer?

BTW, just for fun, if anyone wants to PM me with their answer, I'll let you know if you're right.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

We all do. Every day.

The only difference in your described scenario is the amount.

Didn't do sanitation or epidemiology as part of your coursework, did you?

It appears he never covered diagnosis either, otherwise the process by which engineers can consider the evidence and decide what has most likely gone wrong would not confuse him so much.

 

[Patrick1000]

They don't look clueless to me...

That's a "portion" of your "problem"...listening to people who haven't a clue, and deciding against all evidence, that these clueless people know what they are talking about.

Educate yourself, Patrick...stop "relying" on youtube videos to do your "thinking" for you.

They don't look clueless to me...and they are saying the same thing Gene Kranz said....

I think I mentioned several times already Kranz incriminates himself well enough without the reporters' help.......Just listen to him, that's all the proof anyone needs the thing is FAKe.....

 

[Patrick1000]

Yes I did say that Garrison......

Except you earlier claimed this:



Now one of those two stayements of yours must be false, which one is it?



Others have pointed out the double standard her with respect Apollo 8 and 12.



And that the pressure on one O2 tank was falling, while the other was at zero, and the reporty of the 'shimmy' but apart from that...



But you've just admitted they knew they were venting something so why would anyone proceed on the basis it was an instrumentation problem.



No I will criticize the fact you've made two contradict claims about the lifeboat scenario, again please tell me which one was false?



Except when apparently you weren't.



If only you had understood it once.

Yes I did say that Garrison......

If you read the phony Jim Lovell book you'll learn the lifeboat scenario was different from the one employed in the Apollo 13 case... Get it?

 

[Patrick1000]

Actually, no nomuse........

We all do. Every day.

The only difference in your described scenario is the amount.

Didn't do sanitation or epidemiology as part of your coursework, did you?

Actually, no nomuse, you are incorrect........

Most people do not ingest infected stool daily, stool infected with pathogens. And with regard to the inhaling part, no one does, no one inhales "aerosolized stool" carrying pathogenic organisms, not unless a person of course is in a super weird situation like floating with pretend infected stool in pretend cislunar space.....

 

[Patrick1000]

If you do not agree, or are not interested, there is no need to continue here RAF....

Seems Patrick has a nervous "tic" where every third sentence or so, he has to "assume" that everyone agrees with him...


Patrick, do you think we are lying when we say no one here agrees with you? For the life of me, I can't understand why you continue to insinuate that there are people who agree with you when we go out of our way to DISAGREE with you.


Do you understand why we are getting tired of this "implied" agreement where none exists?

If you do not agree, or are not interested, there is no need to continue here RAF....No one is holding a pretend ray gun to your head here RAF. you are participating on your own volition. If it is a waste of time in your mind, fine with me if you don't respond. I am not posting here for those who disagree with me....So it is not an issue for me.....

 

[Patrick1000]

Sure they are claiming it was safe......

No one is claiming it was safe.



...solely by you, in complete refraction to anything anyone has said to you.



Exactly what changes? This is where you abandoned this point previously. Don't try to start it all over again and pretend the ball isn't in your court.



Nonsense. Tolerable risk is exactly at the heart of this conversation.



Begging the question. An army of qualified physicians did approve it. You have provided no expertise to the contrary -- only your vague layman's assertion that it wasn't suitable.



So why can't you seem to find a single qualified physician to endorse your claim?

Sure they are claiming it was safe Jay......The guy, borman, was said to have viral gastroenteritis and his infected poop was floating throughout the cabin and no one did anything to fix it, remedy that situation. That is more than claiming it was safe Jay. Matter-o-fact, it's an outright resounding endorsement of the Apollo cislunar can.....

 

[Patrick1000]

You do not understand how a physician thinks......

You appear to be using some sort of new and novel definition of the word "safe." This was an experimental series of record-setting space missions - the first and only time humans have ever set foot on a heavenly body.

The idea of "safe" is one of relative risk versus reward.

What is the increased risk of debilitating illness from ingesting feces when sealed in a confined space with two other people as opposed to being on earth? What is that risk when the people have first been tested for infectious diseases and then isolated from known vectors? What is the incubation period for likely infectious diseases? What percentage of exposed individuals actually contract the most likely diseases? Could a man in peak physical shape continue to perform adequately for five days after contracting the most common diseases?

What is the overall chance of mission failure due to illness?

Your argument about what doctors would and would not allow is nonsense and shows, to me, that you have no medical training. Doctors routinely weigh risks versus rewards. Frequently, doctors minimize risks in their minds because they, like everyone else, want to see rewards.

People were going to the moon. Do you really think doctors could have stopped them? Do you think lawyers could have?

You do not understand how a physician thinks......

Keep in mind the added complication of an influenza pandemic during 1968/1969....that always worries docs....

Anyway, I have said this before, ask your physician friends. Better yet, get them to come on line here and we can go over the records again, what Borman wrote, what Lovell wrote, what Berry wrote and so forth and see if any doctor(besides arch perpetrator Charles Berry) thinks it is OK to have infected poop floating in a zero G cabin and do nothing about it...

I'd love to debate a doc who sees things differently from me.....

 

[Patrick1000]

Not sure if you saw the same interview that I did....

I rarely quote myself on forums, but I am this time.

Patrick, I've politely, albeit pointedly, asked you a reasonable question. It is related to how John Aaron could diagnose a problem via telephone. Like a good mystery writer, I've given you all of the clues, but not the answer. You've even been given hints by others how it this kind of thing can be done. Could I have some sort of answer?

BTW, just for fun, if anyone wants to PM me with their answer, I'll let you know if you're right.

Not sure if you saw the same interview that I did....

My point is that Liebergot did not see things this way, see it instantly as a hardware problem based on EECOM data.. Now if John Aaron was able to discern something in particular having to do with the EECOM data that Liebergot did not, and Aaron did say in the interview that I watched that it was the EECOM data that so persuaded him to think this was a hardware issue, then that would have been a big deal and everyone would have said;

"John Aaron was able to figure out why this all was definitely hardware and not instrument based when Sy Liebergot and Clint Burton were not able to figure it out. So John's a big fat hero again and Sy and Clint are second tier EECOMs."

(I mention Clint Burton above because he was there with Sy Liebergot during the last part of Liebergot's shift. So if Burton had been able to figure out that this was all hardware and not instrument based, well we would have heard about that too. Burton figured out what Sy could not. That was not the case. )

But it did not go down that way. "History", bogus Apollo history that it is, tells us it was not until toward the end of that first hour of the staged drama that Liebergot and presumably Burton at his side, began to think the fuel cells were really out and so forth. Aaron did not know what Burton and Liebergot were struggling to figure out early on, hardware vs instrumentation. One may conclude Aaron is lying his fanny off. Aaron is a big fat perp. On the other hand, Liebergot and Clint Burton are almost certainly CLEAN....

17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 122, 11, 10, 9, 8, ZERO, BULLOFF, WE HAVE BULLOFF......

 

[Patrick1000]

OK RAF, now you can be sure this one did not come from YouTube.....

That's a "portion" of your "problem"...listening to people who haven't a clue, and deciding against all evidence, that these clueless people know what they are talking about.

Educate yourself, Patrick...stop "relying" on youtube videos to do your "thinking" for you.

OK RAF, now you can be sure this one did not come from YouTube.....

The astronauts have to take off their clothes, get completely naked to poop, this, per astronaut Charlie Duke. His book and the relevant section have already been well referenced in one of my previous posts.

But despite what Charlie says, and despite what we know about cislunar hygiene, there is no mention of this problem in the Apollo 13 Mission Report, this problem with the cold cold cold cold of the powered down craft and the astronauts need to take off their clothes to poop, and the impossibility of their doing this all three together in the lander as they were alleged to have been.

All three of them are in the Lander, correct? How were they planning on, how did they poop given the logistics RAF? Any ideas? No mention of an even remotely credible solution to this hygienic conumdrum in the Apollo 13 Mission Report.

One may conclude that the Apollo 13 Mission is fraudulent right there, nothing else is needed at all, BOOM, right there, Apollo 13 proven fraudulent......

 

[fess]

I figured out the perfect way to help you understand. Forget about x and y for a moment. Ask yourself if you think it is "safe" to inhale and ingest infected stool????



There you go....it's gotta' be fake. ALL OF IT....

Oh please, not this “crap” again. This is just another attempt to switch horses in the middle of the stream. You have done this numerous times in the past to evade answering questions that are posed to you. Do you think that none of us notice this tactic?

Now that you have switched topics… again, let me ask this:
What is the exchange rate of the Apollo 8 ventilation system? Jay can help you out with this.
Why are there no reports of any of Borman’s diarrhea being trapped in the filtration system?
What “aerosolized” Borman’s loose stool?

I have a spare horse if you need one.

 

[Patrick1000]

Borman was supposed to be sick Tomblvd, remember?

I pointed this out to you earlier, but you, not having any medical expertise, apparently didn't understand.

I'll try again.

Anytime you use a bathroom with a previously-used toilet in it, you are ingesting fecal matter, along with other nasty stuff. It is blasted out of the toilet during use and when flushing (which is why you should ALWAYS shut the lid prior to flushing, OK Patrick?); it then lingers in the air and on surfaces for many days, depending on the specific bacteria. That is the way it is.

Borman was supposed to be SICK Tomblvd, remember? SICK!!!! This is NOT NOT NOT a healthy person. Vomiting, diarrhea, remember???????

When's the last time you took care of someone with influenza who had to be tubed and was on a ventilator Tomblvd?.....

What do you do with your hospitalized patients with infectious diarrhea? Have everyone share their bathroom? We have very strict stool precautions that we follow where I work as do all main stream American medical centers.

Additionally and most importantly, BORMAN'S INFECTED STOOL AND VOMITUS ON APOLLO 8 WAS AEROSOLIZED!!!!! AND also, one of the diagnoses that was being considered was INFLUENZA, and being "considered" I might add most appropriately so. Inappropriately, very inappropriately, influenza was discounted as according to the eminently avoidable good doctor Charles Berry, influenza vaccination guarantees immunity. Yes you heard that right Tomblvd, Charles Berry thinks that receiving an influenza vaccination guarantees immunity.

Not that any of this is real Tomblvd, but seriously now, seriously,.... need I go on with this unbelievable medical nonsense ? The whole thing is ludicrous beyond the stars.

 

[Patrick1000]

Read Borman's book and Chaikin's Erock, that's a good place to start....

I want to know exactly what Patrick thinks happened!

Does he contend that Borman took a dump in the cabin without the collection container? Does he think it splattered everywhere in zero g?

Liquid tends to be clearly visible in zero g, if it has been expelled, it has momentum that will carry it to a surface.

It does not disintigrate and atomise - surface tension without gravity is a strong enough force. It would be clearly visible, fairly easy to mop up with towels and I suspect the pong would be the most pressing 'problem'

I can't help but be extremely frustrated at this whole thread. It is just a facepalm in every post, and a headshake at every rebuttal ignored.

Read Borman's book COUNTDOWN and Chaikin's book A MAN ON THE MOON Erock, that's a good place to start, but stories about the Borman poop and vomitus are everywhere, they abound, have at it , it really is sort of fun to get a load of all the nonsense written about this ficticious event...

A favorite of mine is the piece Borman wrote himself for Look/Life about his Apollo 8 "adventure". That is a funny one because in that piece Borman wrote that he actually tried to make himself sick again, right there in cislunar space, give himself a SECOND CASE OF BAD DIARRHEA, NAUSEA AND VOMITING. Borman actually claimed that he did this on purpose, took half of a seconal pill to try and give himself diarrhea again and make himself vomit to see as an experiment if the seconal was what made him sick in the first place. I am SO SO SO SO not making this up as idiotic and utterly preposterous as it sounds. You have GOT to read this Borman Look/Life piece for yourself Erock to believe it.

There is good information on the Borman illness in the newspaper archives as well Erock. I read the NY Times and the Texas papers on the relevant days.

Borman's stool and vomitus allegedly was floating about the command module cabin. Some(vomitus) hit Lovell in the chest I believe. I didn't make this nonsense up, Borman, Berry and the other NASA guys did. Read their stuff Erock, it is a flat outta' this world HOOT!!!!!

 

[Patrick1000]

It Really Is Quite Wild When One Thinks About It....

The Apollo Program people wanted to make the first "staged" journey beyond the earth's pull a bit more realistic and so they threw in this Borman illness thing, remember the other astronauts got a little sick too, hoping it would be ultimately "bought" as "space sickness" and so lend a touch of the authentic to ever so inauthentic Apollo.

Of all the things to backfire.... the one they have no defense for... the one they cannot "pull rank" with respect to, by that I mean this is the one place the NASA guys cannot say, "You don't know anything about aerospace science", because diarrhea is not aerospace science, now is it?

Of all the things to bring Neil Armstrong back down to earth, ground him among us mortals for good, commander Borman's case of the runs. It's downright comical, and yet, it almost had to be this way you know.....

 

[Patrick1000]

Actually it would seem that I am riding several horses at once....

Oh please, not this “crap” again. This is just another attempt to switch horses in the middle of the stream. You have done this numerous times in the past to evade answering questions that are posed to you. Do you think that none of us notice this tactic?

Now that you have switched topics… again, let me ask this:
What is the exchange rate of the Apollo 8 ventilation system? Jay can help you out with this.
Why are there no reports of any of Borman’s diarrhea being trapped in the filtration system?
What “aerosolized” Borman’s loose stool?

I have a spare horse if you need one.

Actually it would seem that I am riding several horses at once...Feel free to comment on my posts relating to my latest interest fess, Apollo 13 fraudulence. It has become my favorite subject. You'll find me eager to mix it up with reference to my ideas on the subject, such a rich topic and one with so much of the evidence heavily favoring my side.

I think I brought up the Borman poop thing again because slyjoe accused me of not having chops adequate to bust Armstrong's chops, and so I thought it appropriate to remind slyjoe that I did have the requisite chops and that Armstrong's were in fact already busted as a consequence.

But it is true, I do like to go from one topic to the next. It keeps it interesting for me and sometimes helps me connect things, one to the other.

 

[Robrob]

What do you do with your hospitalized patients with infectious diarrhea? Have everyone share their bathroom? We have very strict stool precautions that we follow where I work as do all main stream American medical centers.

Your fascination with all things fecal aside, why do you think a cramped LM on its way to the Moon nearly half a century ago would have had modern hospital levels of hygiene?