Why vegans are simply better people

[bit_pattern]

I couldn't live without leather and lanolin.

And you're not vegan either. So what's being "hobbled"?

 

[Belz...]

Yes, I read it, here I'll quote it for you again:

You want to control the parameters of the discussion. Methinks it is YOU who has no idea how forums are supposed to run

Ok. You cannot understand what you read.

I asked you, politely, to leave nonsense out of the discussion. How is asking politely for something, wanting to control the parameters of the discussion ?

You have no idea what you are reading.

 

[Stout]

I'm not vegan but I'm interested why you perceive it as "hobbling" a lifestyle?

Simply because there's so many products that have to be/should be avoided. Along with the previously mentioned leather and lanolin, pretty much every label on every product had to be scrutinized for animal derivatives such as cochineal.

From there it gets into the whole animal testing arena. True some products may not be made from animals however animals were tortured and exploited to determine whether a product was safe for human use.

Not to mention the social implications in things like going out to dinner with non vegans. Choice of restaurants can be a huge issue here with the vegan only having very few "vegan friendly" venues to choose from. Depending where you live, of course.

Vegetarian is way easier, not so strict and regimented and allowing the practitioner more freedom of choice to, say, buy those leather sandals because the cow was already dead being killed for it's meat with the leather being a by product that shouldn't be wasted.

Personally, I'd consider a vegan type of awareness a chore, others might consider it a joy.

 

[dafydd]

And you're not vegan either. So what's being "hobbled"?

It was a reference to soap

 

[RandFan]

In a hundred years time we will all be dead so it really doesn't matter what you choose to eat. If you have a choice, that is.

It won't matter who you choose to rape or kill either. Assuming you have a choice that is.

I'm not sure if you are kidding or being serious.

 

[dafydd]

It won't matter who you choose to rape or kill either. Assuming you have a choice that is.

I'm not sure if you are kidding or being serious.

I'm not equating eating with raping or killing. And we will all be dead in a hundred years. I get the impression from vegans that I've met that they think they will live forever. One of them told me once that my diet was going to kill me. I told him he was in the same boat as me.

The worms crawl out and the worms crawl in
Your brains go trickling down your chin
Wo ho ho ho, where will we be in a hundred years from now?

 

[lionking]

That's what I hate about Vegans. Their "I'm better than you" attitude.

Welcome to the forum. While the OP was certainly trollish, other vegans have weighed in rather more politely, but equally sanctimoniously.

 

[RandFan]

I'm not equating eating with raping or killing.

I didn't say you were. I'm pointing out the flaw in your logic. Unless you start with the presumption that eating is moral then following your logic killing and raping are moral for the same reasons. In other words, your argument is valid only with the presumption that eating meat is moral, right?

And we will all be dead in a hundred years. I get the impression from vegans that I've met that they think they will live forever. One of them told me once that my diet was going to kill me. I told him he was in the same boat as me.

The worms crawl out and the worms crawl in
Your brains go trickling down your chin
Wo ho ho ho, where will we be in a hundred years from now?

Understood.

 

[bit_pattern]

It was a reference to soap

So, I still don't get your point. You're not a vegan so who cares if you couldn't live without mass-manufactured bathroom products? I'm sure vegans have no problem accessing animal-free soaps

http://crueltyfreeshop.com.au/?cPath=1_10_34&main_page=index

 

[bit_pattern]

Simply because there's so many products that have to be/should be avoided. Along with the previously mentioned leather and lanolin, pretty much every label on every product had to be scrutinized for animal derivatives such as cochineal.

From there it gets into the whole animal testing arena. True some products may not be made from animals however animals were tortured and exploited to determine whether a product was safe for human use.

Not to mention the social implications in things like going out to dinner with non vegans. Choice of restaurants can be a huge issue here with the vegan only having very few "vegan friendly" venues to choose from. Depending where you live, of course.

Vegetarian is way easier, not so strict and regimented and allowing the practitioner more freedom of choice to, say, buy those leather sandals because the cow was already dead being killed for it's meat with the leather being a by product that shouldn't be wasted.

A lot of the awareness issues aren't much of a problem in the internet age, I'm sure some vegans exist quite happily in Whole Foods/Cruelty Free Shop bubble and really don't find any of that a chore or find their lives in any way hobbled - indeed many report that they find it enriches their lives because they find themselves getting more involved in community events, whether be co-op's for getting food, or becoming involved with a gardening group etc. Something that is sorely lacking in a lot of modern, consumerist society. A sense of community is very important for a persons sense of well-being.

I can see why you would find the change in lifestyle to be a chore, that's perfectly understandable and it would take some readjustment if you were to ever make a decision to go vegan, but I think it is presumptuous to assume all vegans have their lives "hobbled".

Personally, I'd consider a vegan type of awareness a chore, others might consider it a joy.

Precisely

 

[bit_pattern]

Ok. You cannot understand what you read.

I asked you, politely, to leave nonsense out of the discussion. How is asking politely for something, wanting to control the parameters of the discussion ?

You have no idea what you are reading.

Because that "something" was a request not to talk about the personal basis for my ethical decision not top eat animals.

 

[Beat]

Because that "something" was a request not to talk about the personal basis for my ethical decision not top eat animals.

But before you said this, you insisted that we consider it in the discussion.

Yes. Let's stick to reality and leave karma out of it.

Why? It's an important foundation of my ethical choice not to eat animals. You call it moral responsibility, I call it karma.

Why not now?
--And if you do not want us to discuss it anymore, at least you should acknowledge that it's then not fair to say that we can't eat animals based off of your personal reason.

 

[bit_pattern]

But before you said this, you insisted that we consider it in the discussion.

No I didn't, I just mentioned it as a personal belief of mine

Why not now?
--And if you do not want us to discuss it anymore, at least you should acknowledge that it's then not fair to say that we can't eat animals based off of your personal reason.

I'm happy to acknowledge that if you acknowledge that I have never made any such argument. To the contrary, I've been very clear that one's moral/ethical/karmic choices are theirs and theirs alone, you shoulder that responsibility, not me. I've made a choice (or, more correctly am in the process of making a choice, I've eaten meat a few times since i decided to go vegetarian) but if you want to eat meat then that's your prerogative, I'm sure it's very tasty and that you enjoy it very much, I could even give you some tips on how to cook it if you'd like (I do a mean osso buco for instance), either way, I'm happy to talk about what motivates my choices but what I do not do and have not done is preach about what anyone else's choice should be.

You should probably stop arguing with straw men and actually read my posts before replying next time

 

[SusanB-M1]

Apologies if this has already been asked somewhere back in this multi-page topic:
Since we evolved as carnivores and would probably have become extinct if ancient humans had all decided to be vegans, I wonder whether this fact affects vegans' decisions nowadays.

 

[bit_pattern]

Apologies if this has already been asked somewhere back in this multi-page topic:
Since we evolved as carnivores and would probably have become extinct if ancient humans had all decided to be vegans, I wonder whether this fact affects vegans' decisions nowadays.

Not mine. I think just because we did things one way in the past isn't an argument for continuing that into the future. There are plenty of things that we did that probably saved us from going extinct that are no longer acceptable, morally and ethically. Things like rape, incest, bondage etc.

I know full well that I have been born-blessed to be living in a a time and place where I have the luxury of making such a choice, I know full well that is not a luxury that has often been afforded throughout human history. So my choice is to make the most of the momentous period of abundance into which I've been born by choosing to live ethically and not eat animals. There are so many rich sources of protein available to me that I just can't justify eating meat. Then there is the other ethical argument, the resource-heavy and environmentally destructive cost of meat production, I would prefer to live with a clear conscience.

 

[Noztradamus]

Is "better" the new term for "howling at the moon insane"?

http://www.thelocal.de/sport/20120116-40139.html

The ad for the ING DiBa bank, which started running on German television earlier this month, shows Nowitzki walking into a folksy German sausage shop to the excitement of the workers there.

One woman hands him a slice of Wurst while asking “What did we always used to say?” Nowitzki responds: “It’ll make you big and strong,” as everyone laughs and he eats the sausage.

But animal rights activists were not amused and began bombarding the bank’s Facebook page with angry comments.

“The Nowitzki advertisement represents violence against animals,” one poster wrote. “Even worse, meat is portrayed as a saviour or something that can make you stronger, where studies say something completely different.”

 

[Belz...]

Because that "something" was a request not to talk about the personal basis for my ethical decision not top eat animals.

Right. That is not censorship.

But by all means, do as you please. It was a suggestion.

 

[dafydd]

I didn't say you were. I'm pointing out the flaw in your logic. Unless you start with the presumption that eating is moral then following your logic killing and raping are moral for the same reasons. In other words, your argument is valid only with the presumption that eating meat is moral, right?

Fair enough. Although I start with the presumption that meat is very tasty.

 

[dafydd]

Not mine. I think just because we did things one way in the past isn't an argument for continuing that into the future. There are plenty of things that we did that probably saved us from going extinct that are no longer acceptable, morally and ethically. Things like rape, incest, bondage etc.

I know full well that I have been born-blessed to be living in a a time and place where I have the luxury of making such a choice, I know full well that is not a luxury that has often been afforded throughout human history. So my choice is to make the most of the momentous period of abundance into which I've been born by choosing to live ethically and not eat animals. There are so many rich sources of protein available to me that I just can't justify eating meat. Then there is the other ethical argument, the resource-heavy and environmentally destructive cost of meat production, I would prefer to live with a clear conscience.

That is where we differ. There is a lot more to ethics and living a good life than not eating animals. You are not a saint just because you are a vegan. That is just another example of the holier-than-thou vegan attitude that gets up my nose. Do you own a car? I don't, I get around by bicycle and I don't pollute the air with my exhaust fumes. If you do use fossil fuel to get around does that bother your conscience?

 

[bit_pattern]

That is where we differ. There is a lot more to ethics and living a good life than not eating animals. You are not a saint just because you are a vegan. That is just another example of the holier-than-thou vegan attitude that gets up my nose. Do you own a car? I don't, I get around by bicycle and I don't pollute the air with my exhaust fumes. If you do use fossil fuel to get around does that bother your conscience?

I ride a bike. Never owned a car. Don't even have a drivers licence.

I think the real point of difference here is that you seem to have the impression that you're being preached to, I have no interest in converting you or preaching to you, I'm just interested in having a discussion about veganism

Fair enough. Although I start with the presumption that meat is very tasty.

Or maybe the real problem here is you've never been interested in having an open and honest conversation rather you're more interested in mocking people who you disagree with. That's fine but it just goes to show that it wouldn't matter if hadn't have mentioned karma, you'd still be more interested in trolling for reactions than trying to understand an alternative POV.