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Why vegans are simply better people

Oi ! I read that about 15 times trying to wrap my head around it. OK I understand the concept of Nirvana however I fail to understand how an animal can chose to exercise compassion. Sure I'm sure we can come up with a few examples of animals acting compassionately however, in general, animals act in their own self interest often exhibiting cruelty for the sake of cruelty's sake'

Look, I'm a layman so don't put too much weight on my interpretation of things but I would say that animals lack that self-awareness that we possess and that's why it is highly desirable to be reborn a human because we have the greatest potential for liberation.

I guess I hung up on the deluded by negative emotions idea. Would an animal feel something like guilt or would a negative emotion be along the lines of deriving pleasure from exercising power ?

I would say the latter.

Seems to me that if Nirvana is the goal, then choosing a life that involves being a predator would run counter to that goal.

Yes but because the delusion of samsara is so powerful we make poor choices based on the powerful emotions we experience after death, or at least that's my interpretation.
 
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I was just wondering if they are having the same debate in East Africa. Nine million people are starving there. I don't think that samsara is uppermost in their minds.
 
I was just wondering if they are having the same debate in East Africa. Nine million people are starving there. I don't think that samsara is uppermost in their minds.

I'm sure there are lots of things currently being debated on JREF which aren't being debated by the 9 million starving East Africans. So what's your point exactly? :confused:
 
I think we should use skepticism in all sections, don't you ?

As a rule of thumb, yes however we're beyond the realm of rationalities reach with the entire subject and dealing strictly with a very emotional topic. I'd hate to see woo banned or deemed off topic when it's clearly what we're discussing.
 
As a rule of thumb, yes however we're beyond the realm of rationalities reach with the entire subject and dealing strictly with a very emotional topic. I'd hate to see woo banned or deemed off topic when it's clearly what we're discussing.

Precisely. You guys are free to criticise, deconstruct, or outright attack my position to your hearts content but if I want to contextualise my dietary choices by way of woo then that's my choice and I'm allowed to express it. Really, I'm doing you a favour, I'm sure you're getting a kick out of laughing at me, so what's the problem?
 
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Look, I'm a layman so don't put too much weight on my interpretation of things but I would say that animals lack that self-awareness that we possess and that's why it is highly desirable to be reborn a human because we have the greatest potential for liberation.

Yes but because the delusion of samsara is so powerful we make poor choices based on the powerful emotions we experience after death, or at least that's my interpretation.

I agree on the lack of self awareness which is why I was questioning the wisdom of holding animals responsible for their own karma. I'd also never run across the idea that there's some sort of choice as to just what one is reborn as.

I tried Buddhism, or tried to understand it at least. I got as far as not being able to seriously find fault with the four noble truths and the eightfold path as a philosophy however once we depart "the basics" we're into a thicket of woo so dense that I wonder whether anyone is able to successfully navigate it and blaze a path so us layfolk have a trail to understanding.

Concerning words of wisdom, I'll take Lisa Simpson over the Dali Lama any day.
 
I'm sure there are lots of things currently being debated on JREF which aren't being debated by the 9 million starving East Africans. So what's your point exactly? :confused:

That we are very lucky to be able to indulge in a pointless debate about what we choose to eat. Millions of people do not have much of a choice. As for the the debate here, you eat what you want to eat and I'll eat what I want to eat.
 
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Precisely. You guys are free to criticise, deconstruct, or outright attack my position to your hearts content but if I want to contextualise my dietary choices by way of woo then that's my choice and I'm allowed to express it. Really, I'm doing you a favour, I'm sure you're getting a kick out of laughing at me, so what's the problem?

You brought up the woo concept of karma.
 
That we are very lucky to be able to indulge in a pointless debate about what we choose to eat. Millions of people do not have much of a choice. As for the the debate here, you eat what you want to eat and I'll eat what I want to eat.

Yes we are lucky. A lot of the world considers meat a luxury and survives off of beans and rice.
 
Yes we are lucky. A lot of the world considers meat a luxury and survives off of beans and rice.

In a hundred years time we will all be dead so it really doesn't matter what you choose to eat. If you have a choice, that is.
 
That we are very lucky to be able to indulge in a pointless debate about what we choose to eat. Millions of people do not have much of a choice.As for the the debate here, you eat what you want to eat and I'll eat what I want to eat.

I realise that, I was born blessed to live at a moment in time where I need not worry about want and have the luxury to choose NOT to eat other sentient creatures. It's a rare moment in time that anyone be gifted such fortuitous circumstances and I intend to make the most of the opportunity :)

I'm not asking anyone else not to eat meat and if I was starving in East Africa and had the choice to eat meat I would not turn away the opportunity to nourish myself and my family. That is in no way incompatible with Buddhist thought. The do no harm principle applies to yourself and your loved ones as much as anyone else and self preservation is important.

But that doesn't justify me, here in this privileged existence with the choice to source other eminently affordable forms of protein, to wantonly take the life of other sentient beings just because meat is tasty. I'm amazed to live in such an abundant era that I don't need to sustain myself in that way.
 
I have no idea Estella. I'm a graphic designer, and not too bright.

You'll have to rephrase that using shorter words.
Please don't say that, we all have our areas of knowledge and/or expertise and I'd be totally lost if you were to speak in your jargon. The meta analysis that the news report linked to used studies that didn't take enough measurements, i.e. total diet, exercise, occupation, ethnicity, etc. to determine if the effect of processed meats had a real effect or was a surrogate or contributory with some other factor(s). When you isolate (intentionally or not) measurements that you hypothesise can be correlated with a particular endpoint, you can almost always find a correlation, but it isn't real. Think pirates and global warming for instance. Does this make sense?

Este
 
But what you were saying in that post, and in the subsequent post when you raised the option of reporting my posts to the mods, is that you don't think I should be allowed to bring nonsense into the debate. That's not scepticism, my friend.

The first step of skepticism is understanding the data you gather. Perhaps you should re-read my post.

Scepticism doesn't involve trying trying to silence topics you don't agree with. :)

Same as above.

When you interpret a suggestion as some sort of censorship, you have some problem with reading comprehension.

When you think me asking whether I should report a post for being off-topic is the same as silencing topics I don't agree with, you have no idea how forums work. Or any debate, in fact.
 
As a rule of thumb, yes however we're beyond the realm of rationalities reach with the entire subject and dealing strictly with a very emotional topic. I'd hate to see woo banned or deemed off topic when it's clearly what we're discussing.

First, I'll give you the same advice I gave to bit_pattern. Read my post.

Second, what the hell does karma have to do with vegan diets ?
 
First, I'll give you the same advice I gave to bit_pattern. Read my post.

Second, what the hell does karma have to do with vegan diets ?

We're gathering data right here and now, data that helps understand why some people may want to hobble their lifestyle with veganism.

Karma is just another sample

Vegan is much more that a diet, it means living without any animal products like leather and lanolin
 
First, I'll give you the same advice I gave to bit_pattern. Read my post.

Yes, I read it, here I'll quote it for you again:

Could we leave made-up spiritual, age-old nonsense out of the discussion about made-up spiritual, new-age nonsense, please ?

You want to control the parameters of the discussion. Methinks it is YOU who has no idea how forums are supposed to run :)
 
We're gathering data right here and now, data that helps understand why some people may want to hobble their lifestyle with veganism.

Karma is just another sample

Vegan is much more that a diet, it means living without any animal products like leather and lanolin

I'm not vegan but I'm interested why you perceive it as "hobbling" a lifestyle?
 
When I watch people who smoke, I often ask myself how can they do it. What is it that makes these people tick. They deliberately engage in a vice that they know will probably hasten their own death.

Is it because they really don't enjoy life and dying early is OK with them.

Is it because they don't believe in the science that shows how dangerous smoking is?

Or it it because they are selfish. They think of themselves and their enjoyment and don't worry about the consequences until they occur. They don't care that smoking arround their kids infuences their kids to smoke. They don't care that others often have to foot the medical bills in the form of higher insurance premiums, and they don't care about secondary smoke.

I believe that people who don't smoke are better people than those who do. Because I believe those who smoke do it for the last reason.

Now lets talk about meat eaters. That veal you ate last night. A young holstein bull calf was taken from its mother at day one. Kept in a cage to prevent him from moving and fed bucket milk for a few days until he was butchered. A newborn highly evolved consciousness was bought into this world to be tortured basically, a torture we would not perfrom on a prisoner of war, all for your veal.

Chickens kept in cages, debeaked to prevent pecking each other after they go insane from not being able to move for the short one year life span they are given to furnish you your eggs.. the list goes on.

Heart disease. We now know the cause. Meat and oil do not just contribute to heart disease, they are the cause. thats right they are the cause.

I dare you meat eating smart asses to actually take time to read this link:




When you go out into public, it is impossible not to see fat slobs wherever you go. Basically fat footballs with a head on top. Why are they such, just like the smokers.... they eat excessively because they enjoy it and will worry about the consequences later.

They are ugly. Not just because they are obese. But their fat, disgusting bodies are a testimony to their own extreme selfishness and complete lack of discipline. Their bodies are testimony to the worst afflliction one can posess....selfishness, glutony, overindulgance, lack of empathy, and refusal to set an example on how to live well for others, especially our children.....whatever you want to call it...if its bad,,,,baby you go it.

Its been known for years now how dangerous sugars and simple carbs are,,,but I bet your reading this with a dougnut stuffed in your mouth and one in your kids...,now our overindulgance in meat and oil has become our biggest killer. But that won't stop you from eating damn well what you want will it and taking the kids for a bigmac later too. After all, its all about you. And if all this ***** about nutrition is true, you worry about it later.

Thats why vegans are better people...we aren't you.

again....

I dare you to read it...
That's what I hate about Vegans. Their "I'm better than you" attitude.:mad::mad:
 
That's what I hate about Vegans. Their "I'm better than you" attitude.:mad::mad:

Yes but if you'd actually read the whole thread - or at least the first few pages - you would have learned that the OP is actually a troll and doesn't represent vegan values. The discussion has moved quite a way since then.
 

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