Explain consciousness to the layman.

[AlBell]

.....

do you have a definition for the word "qualia".

Not one that anyone would likely find acceptable.

Do you, since I suspect you as well as I know what is being discussed by the noun qualia?

Another case very similar to the problem of defining consciousness, imo. Yet both of us, and most sentient people, have a fair albeit intuitive idea of what either word means.

ps. Since you don't believe in discussing undefinables, why are you posting in this thread?

 

[tsig]

That's the reason that the term "qualia" was invented - to separate the externally observable behaviours from the experience of being conscious. It's the part of consciousness that has no explanation. Hence the necessity of providing a way to bypass the concept.

Then the term qualia assumes that consciousness is magic.

 

[tsig]

Originally Posted by westprog View Post
That's the reason that the term "qualia" was invented - to separate the externally observable behaviours from the experience of being conscious. It's the part of consciousness that has no explanation. Hence the necessity of providing a way to bypass the concept.

In the past, explanations like that were considered acceptable. For example, a doctor in training might be asked why morphine makes a patient sleepy and give the accepted answer that it is because it has a "dormative virtue". However, this amounts to saying that morphine tends to make the patient sleepy because morphine tends to make the patient sleepy.

Your talk of "qualia" is exactly like that students talk of "dormative virtue". It's a mere re-naming of the problem presented as though it were an explanation, and no one here is buying it.

Notice the built in assumption that consciousness is beyond explanation. He's trying to slip in a soul thru the back door.

 

[Irony]

Of course it's not an explanation. It's a statement of the problem, that's all. Qualia is the name of the thing that has to be explained.

If it were a mere statement of the problem the people who use the word would not be so resistant to scientific exploration into it.

"Qualia" is instead used as though it forms some sort of barrier beyond which physics cannot penetrate, which is also a definition for the word "magic".

 

[westprog]

Notice the built in assumption that consciousness is beyond explanation.

Yes, things proceed as always. If something is unexplained, then it must be beyond explanation. So an explanation must exist, and must be found. All the explanations are equally good, no matter how confused or contradictory - just don't ever admit the unthinkable - a total mystery.

There's a terror that's apparent when facing the unknown, and anything is better than that.

 

[westprog]

Then the term qualia assumes that consciousness is magic.

Any time we don't admit that something isn't understood, then we have to be in the realm of magic.

And how quickly the agenda will be detected, the hidden motivation - the demands to admit what one is really driving at.

 

[westprog]

If it were a mere statement of the problem the people who use the word would not be so resistant to scientific exploration into it.

Oh, yes, the people who are blocking all that scientific investigation. Just the other week a dozen neurologists were carted off to prison for blasphemy.

Normally the hysteria doesn't start till page 4, but we seem to be rushing things along. "Why are you so determined to prevent scientific investigation?"

 

[NewtonTrino]

Tough subject, possibly one of the toughest problems of all. I don't even know where to begin.

 

[tsig]

Originally Posted by westprog View Post
That's the reason that the term "qualia" was invented - to separate the externally observable behaviours from the experience of being conscious. It's the part of consciousness that has no explanation. Hence the necessity of providing a way to bypass the concept.




Notice the built in assumption that consciousness is beyond explanation. He's trying to slip in a soul thru the back door.

Yes, things proceed as always. If something is unexplained, then it must be beyond explanation. So an explanation must exist, and must be found. All the explanations are equally good, no matter how confused or contradictory - just don't ever admit the unthinkable - a total mystery.
There's a terror that's apparent when facing the unknown, and anything is better than that.

See the hilited? Please hilite those words in my post.

You're the one that tossed in that consciousness was beyond explanation so I don't know why you're going on about it.

 

[tsig]

Tough subject, possibly one of the toughest problems of all. I don't even know where to begin.

Try inside your head. If you're going to find consciousness anywhere it ought to be there.

 

[tsig]

Any time we don't admit that something isn't understood, then we have to be in the realm of magic.

And how quickly the agenda will be detected, the hidden motivation - the demands to admit what one is really driving at.

You might at least let us write the posts before you respond.

 

[westprog]

See the hilited? Please hilite those words in my post.

You're the one that tossed in that consciousness was beyond explanation so I don't know why you're going on about it.

No, I didn't. You know that I didn't. You can't quote me saying that I did.

What I said was something very, very different - that consciousness was unexplained. This is obviously true. But that wouldn't make me sound mystical enough.

 

[Kahalachan]

People who use the term "qualia" are mystics, who believe in magic. Crazy people, who hear voices in their heads.

What? Neuroscientists use the term qualia.

Qualia refers to the unique subjective experience an individual feels. It is testable, maybe not now, but in the future. If we were to wire our occipital lobe with a dog's we might know how dogs see the world. It is theoretically possible for two individuals to experience the same qualia.

 

[westprog]

You might at least let us write the posts before you respond.

I might. But if I preempt them, they look a little less impressive.

 

[tsig]

No, I didn't. You know that I didn't. You can't quote me saying that I did.

What I said was something very, very different - that consciousness was unexplained. This is obviously true. But that wouldn't make me sound mystical enough.

Right because unexplained puts you in such good company.
http://www.unexplained.info/
http://www.unexplainedresearch.com/
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/

 

[Wowbagger]

Consciousness is a "hard problem" invented by theorists to drum up generalized support for international conferences on the nature of consciousness.

That tells us nothing about it.

Consciousness is caused by the collapse of the quantum wave function. Or maybe the collapse of the quantum wave function is caused by consciousness. Maybe both statements are true, because quantum mechanics is strange.

It is unlikely (though I admit not impossible) that consciousness has anything to do with quantum mechanics*. Several people have made some good headway into understanding some aspects of how it can emerge, where it emerges in the brain, and how such a thing can evolve... without ever resorting to QM or collapsing wave functions, or anything like that. Read some books by Susan Blackmore, Antonio Damasio, and (to a lesser degree) Daniel Dennett, to find out more!
(* Except in the sense that QM is fundamental to physics. But, that's a trivial statement.)

Most of those who currently associate consciousness with QM are in the habit of merely making it sound more mysterious, and not actually telling us anything about it.

Whatever happens it's at the Planck scale, which is so teeny-tiny that current consciousness theorists are probably safe from rigorous disproof of their hypotheses, which are continually being refined at international conferences.

This also tells us nothing about it. You're sweeping the problem under a rug. I think we can be more productive than that.

Consciousness is one of the many things that current science barely understands at all.

Science probably understands more than you realize. Not everything, true. But, I found it quite astounding just how much science already happens to know! Again, it's all there for anyone willing to read Susan Blackmore, Antonio Damasio, and (to a lesser degree) Daniel Dennett!

People who use the term "qualia" are mystics, who believe in magic. Crazy people, who hear voices in their heads.

I love Daniel Dennett, too! But, I also think there is a legitimate way to talk about qualia when it comes to consciousness, even if it is only modeled as an emergent behavior. I understand that disqualifying the qualia question is important to understand some of the deeper, more fundamental, aspects of the mind. But, one would have to be a greedy reductionist to assume that means qualia means nothing at a more abstract, and higher level!

 

[westprog]

Right because unexplained puts you in such good company.
http://www.unexplained.info/
http://www.unexplainedresearch.com/
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/

We can't ever say that something has no explanation, because the word "unexplained" is used by a bunch of loonies. So we have to pretend that something we don't, in any way, understand, is actually perfectly comprehensible. Jesus.

 

[!Kaggen]

We can't ever say that something has no explanation, because the word "unexplained" is used by a bunch of loonies. So we have to pretend that something we don't, in any way, understand, is actually perfectly comprehensible. Jesus.

When your cheer leading your team is always winning no matter the score.

 

[Leumas]

Check out this documentary on the subject, The Secret You:

Halfcentaur,


THANKS so very much for the link to the video the Secret You.... it was extremely informative and entertaining.

I think everyone should see it. I am forwarding it to everyone I know.

 

[PixyMisa]

That's the reason that the term "qualia" was invented - to separate the externally observable behaviours from the experience of being conscious. It's the part of consciousness that has no explanation. Hence the necessity of providing a way to bypass the concept.

The reason there is no explanation for qualia is that the concept was deliberately defined ao as to be inexplicable.

The problem is, while no-one can explain qualia, no-one can offer any evidence that they exist either.