Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[fess]

Here is a transcript which provides the pertinent parts. Including the mission control parts.

Thank you.

 

[Patrick1000]

EVIDENCE???? what have i been writing about for the last half dozen or so posts?

Did you have any actual evidence to offer?

EVIDENCE???? What have I been writing about for the last half dozen or so posts abaddon?

The EVIDENCE is nothing other than the actual EECOM loop tapes themselves. THE EVIDENCE CAN BE HEARD EVER SO LOUD AND CLEAR. THE EVIDENCE IS NASA'S OWN APOLLO 13 EECOM LOOP TAPES. LISTEN TO THEM ABADDON!!!

Kranz's claim is explicit. He says in his book and in his History Channel film that sometimes goes by the same name, FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION, that at 15 minutes in to the Apollo 13 situation, 15 minutes from the time of the "Houston we have a problem" call from the astronauts, NOT ONLY HE, KRANZ, BUT EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL WAS AWARE THAT OXYGEN TANK NUMBER TWO HAD EXPLODED. This is Kranz's claim, about this there can be no doubt. Read Kranz's book FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION abaddon, and watch Kranz's film including a watch with commentary. There is NO QUESTION, THIS IS KRANZ'S CLAIM, 15 MINUTES IN EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT. KRANZ CLAIMS EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL 15 MINUTES FROM THE TIME OF THE "HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM CALL" KNEW O2 TANK NUMBER TWO HAD EXPLODED AND THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF "COLLATERAL DAMAGE ON THAT BASIS. KRANZ IS EXPLICIT.

Now, if one reads Liebergot's book, one reads first of all that it was up to Liebergot to figure out what happened. Liebergot knew more than anyone. One hour after the famous Apollo 13 astronaut call, Liebergot was relieved by Lunney's Black Team crew. Listen to the EECOM tapes and read Liebergot's book and you will learn abaddon that at the time of the crew/shift change, ONE HOUR AFTER the "Houston we have a problem call", LIEBERGOT STILL HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT AN OXYGEN TANK HAD EXPLODED AND CAUSED THE PROBLEM. Liebergot had no idea what was causing the problems then, no one did.

Directly contradicting Liebergot's personal account in the book APOLLO EECOM and directly contradicting the account as provided in the EECOM LOOP TAPES, Kranz on the other hand claims that not only he but LIEBERGOT AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE MISSION CONTROL ROOM, EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE KNEW 45 MINUTES PRIOR TO THE WHITE TO BLACK CREW CHANGE THAT O2 TANK NUMBER TWO EXPLODED. Read Liebergot's book and most importantly LISTEN TO THE EECOM LOOP TAPES.

And very much to the point as well, IT TURNS OUT THAT IT IS HOURS AND PERHAPS DAYS EVEN before anyone knows that an oxygen tank has exploded. Listen to the tapes!!!! Kranz is flat out NAILED here. NAILED NAILED NAILED......

So Kranz claims he knows something 15 minutes in to the Apollo 13 drama that no one could possibly have known at that time unless that person were an insider to a fraudulent SCRIPT. THERE IS NO WAY KRANZ OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER COULD HAVE KNOWN AT THAT TIME THERE WAS AN O2 TANK EXPLOSION UNLESS THE EXPLOSION WAS STAGED AND THE MISSION FRAUDULENT. As such, one concludes this to be the case.

The EECOM tapes themselves supply the abundant and incontrovertible evidence for this abaddon. The tapes confirm my claims and incriminate Kranz, inculpate him. He is guilty of Apollo 13 Mission Fraud participation without question. .

Additionally, Sy Liebergot's own account of the Apollo 13 events as told in his book APOLLO EECOM provides solid evidence for my claims and incriminates/inculpates Kranz as well.

The tapes provide very explicit audio evidence and that evidence is supported/corroborated by Liebergot's account as provided in his book APOLLO EECOM. Read Liebergot's book and listen to the Apollo 13 EECOM tapes beginning from the time of the "Houston we have a problem" call"......

This is without question by far the most significant finding in the history of Apollo Program research, regardless of researcher perspective going in. This is nothing less than incontrovertible evidence that flight director Gene Kranz could not have possibly known what he claims to have known(O2 tank explosion) when he knew it(15 minutes in) unless he was a fraud insider.

And so, one may conclude now with absolute metaphysical certainty, that Gene Kranz is a fraud insider and that ALL OF APOLLO IS FRAUDULENT...

It is indeed an ever so ever so ever so beautiful day..........Hallelujah......

 

[Loss Leader]

A star cannot be identified outside of a geometric/pattern context....

It is simply a random point of light otherwise.....

Patrick, I'm going to say something, but first I want you to listen carefully to my credentials: I am a family law attorney who last took a science course in high school and who has never taken an astronomy course in my life. The only things I know about astronomy is what I've happened to read on this forum. The only things i know about the technical aspects of Apollo navigation are what I have read here in this thread. That means that I have been exposed to, at the very most, exactly the same information as you have and, at the very least, far less information than you.

And yet, I have come to understand that stars are located and identified by their position relative to the plane of the earth - X degrees on the horizontal, Y degrees on the vertical at Z given time. No knowledge of constellations is necessary.

I have further come to understand that star sighting on the Apollo spacecraft did not involve constellations. The computer put the targeting telescope where the numerical charts in its memory said a star should be. The astronaut looked through the eyepiece. If he saw one bright star near the crosshairs, he adjusted the ship until the star was in the crosshairs. It did not matter to the astronaut whether that star was part of a constellation because he could not see the entire constellation through the telescope. It did not matter if there were other stars in view because the target star was always the one that was brightest. It did not matter if there really was a difficulty picking the target star from another because there were 36 other stars the astronaut could choose from.

I beg anyone with real knowledge to correct me if I have misapprehended anything.

Otherwise, Patrick, I am forced to wonder why I have learned when you haven't. Do you have any thoughts as to why the same information has been received so differently by the two of us?

 

[Patrick1000]

Your points are most excellent Loss Leader......

Patrick, I'm going to say something, but first I want you to listen carefully to my credentials: I am a family law attorney who last took a science course in high school and who has never taken an astronomy course in my life. The only things I know about astronomy is what I've happened to read on this forum. The only things i know about the technical aspects of Apollo navigation are what I have read here in this thread. That means that I have been exposed to, at the very most, exactly the same information as you have and, at the very least, far less information than you.

And yet, I have come to understand that stars are located and identified by their position relative to the plane of the earth - X degrees on the horizontal, Y degrees on the vertical at Z given time. No knowledge of constellations is necessary.

I have further come to understand that star sighting on the Apollo spacecraft did not involve constellations. The computer put the targeting telescope where the numerical charts in its memory said a star should be. The astronaut looked through the eyepiece. If he saw one bright star near the crosshairs, he adjusted the ship until the star was in the crosshairs. It did not matter to the astronaut whether that star was part of a constellation because he could not see the entire constellation through the telescope. It did not matter if there were other stars in view because the target star was always the one that was brightest. It did not matter if there really was a difficulty picking the target star from another because there were 36 other stars the astronaut could choose from.

I beg anyone with real knowledge to correct me if I have misapprehended anything.

Otherwise, Patrick, I am forced to wonder why I have learned when you haven't. Do you have any thoughts as to why the same information has been received so differently by the two of us?

Your points are most excellent Loss Leader......

We are coming from the same place in a general sense. Our orientation with regard to what star sighting is all about would seem to be at a similar level. I own a telescope but am no big time amateur astronomer by any means.

However, you seem in my mind to be missing the point that an isolated bright star is simply an isolated bright star. It is known by the company it keeps and its anticipated location in the sky on a given night.

In cislunar space, when viewing through a 40 mm optic down or cross sun, one would see on average at least 10 more stars that one would see from here on earth on a super clear night out in the country. With a 40 mm optic, stars of magnitude 7,8,9 would be seen. Now instead of 4,000 visible stars there might be 40,000 or 100,000, maybe even more.....

Now perhaps one would see a bright star, the "correct" star right in the middle of the optic, but there would in the case of sighting with the Apollo 40 mm sextant perhaps a half dozen or maybe even a dozen other stars around it, stars that you would be totally unfamiliar with. How do you know with any certainty what it is that your are looking at?

This is one of the many reasons that the Apollo astronauts deny stars. They do not want to have this conversation with me. Do you understand now?

How can one be positive that he/she would sight the correct star with almost absolute certainty EVERY TIME? And IT MUST BE EVERY TIME. THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ERROR HERE OR YOU ARE DEAD. Would you send Apollo 8 out there faced with this, no one ever having done it before? OF course not. These missions, Apollo 8 included cannot be real.... The risk is insane and NEVER WOULD BE TAKEN...... NEVER..... By never I mean in 1960s terms. The chance of the star sighting being botched is reasonable and as such simply too great. Additionally, the computer cannot help you here Loss Leader.

 

[Patrick1000]

Evidence? How about a log book written in kranz's own handwriting?

Did you have any actual evidence to offer?

And They Thought Apollo 13 Was A Problem? Wait until Kranz, Lovell and Haise read this post.

In the book and film , FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION, Gene Kranz claims as discussed above that he knew oxygen tank number two exploded 15 minutes into the staged drama, 15 minutes from the time that the astronauts called with the bogus "Houston we have a problem " line.

You won't believe what I found in my Rod Pyle book, MISSIONS TO THE MOON, published by Sterling Press in 2009 with a foreword by none other than, you guessed it, Gene Kranz…… The book comes with a copy of Gene Kranz's own Apollo 13 Flight Director's Mission Log from the time of the tank stir and presumed, now known staged, O2 tank explosion to 35 minutes in.

Guess what? Not a word about an oxygen tank explosion or an explosion of any kind at all. So if Gene Kranz figured out that there was an O2 tank explosion 15 minutes into the drama, why didn't he write it down in the Flight Director's Apollo 13 Mission Log Book? All of the other details that one hears about listening to the EECOM Loop Tapes is in the log. Kranz wrote all of that less important stuff down. Why didn't Kranz write down that the oxygen tank blew up 15 minutes in? If that is what Kranz says happened and when he and EVERYONE KNEW IT, why didn't he document it? The Apollo 13 Oxygen tank explosion is only the second most important event in the history of the Apollo Missions next to the stage Eagle Landing.

Guess what? I bet Sterling Press is gonna' need to crank up their printing press. The demand for this book is gonna' be off the hook my friends. Get ready for a second printing….. The official story party would seem to be officially over………

 

[Patrick1000]

With all due respect, i do not accuse Loss Leader of not paying attention...

No. You obsess over the P52 alignment check, ignoring all other methods of navigation, including the SCS. The periodic star sightings are alignment checks, for the most part, of the primary system.



No. You've been told several times that the IMU is actually turned off during translunar and transearth coasts. The IMU is not as crucial to this sort of flight as it is in the other irrelevant examples you've mentioned.

You've been told this several times and been provided references and examples to it. You seem to have your fingers in your ears. Don't accuse Loss Leader of failing to pay attention. He grasps the whole problem. You do not; you're trying to make it seem more precarious and brittle than it really is.

You've been asked how many INS-guided vehicles you've personally operated. Kindly tell us why you won't answer that question. Is it because you don't want the readers to know that you have absolutely no practical experience in this science?

With all due respect Jay, I most certainly did not accuse Loss Leader of not paying attention...He is attentive and very astute. The problem with the star sighting/IMU alignment issue is we have no way to empirically check one position against the other. We need to do my Gedanken Experiment and we have no access to cislunar space.

 

[Loss Leader]

Now perhaps one would see a bright star, the "correct" star right in the middle of the optic, but there would in the case of sighting with the Apollo 40 mm sextant perhaps a half dozen or maybe even a dozen other stars around it, stars that you would be totally unfamiliar with. How do you know with any certainty what it is that your are looking at?

1. The star you're looking for is twice as bright as any other star around it (at a magnitude difference of less than one) to ten times as bright (at a magnitude difference of 2.5).

2. After aligning with one star, the astronaut could switch to a second star which, if the alignment was right, would now be dead center of the reticule.

3. The moon, sun and earth all provide navigation points that keep the spaceship from getting completely out of alignment.

4. Several test flights, including one that circled the moon but did not land, had shown the system to function appropriately.

5. The total expected error had been computed mathematically so that star sightings were taken before the ship became so badly aligned as to lose sight of the guide stars through the sextant.

6. The whole Apollo mission was an astonishingly difficult undertaking with failure and death constant companions, such that every single astronaut was fully prepared to die for the mission, and Richard Nixon actually had a speech ready in case of the worst.

7. The inertial guidance system aboard the ship had been tested in for almost twenty years.

8. The ship didn't even have to be aligned to function well in cislunar space.

9. The people on the spaceship and on the ground were really really smart and very knowledgeable about celestial navigation.

10. We have a couple hundred pounds of lunar rocks on earth that could only have been formed on the moon and carried back here by hand - they lack minerals that indicate exposure to water, the smallest of them are riddled with micro-craters, and their elemental makeup does not match anything on the earth's crust. This proves the navigation system worked.

 

[nomuse]

A star cannot be identified outside of a geometric/pattern context....

It is simply a random point of light otherwise.....

I saw a star last night. It was by itself; I didn't see any stars near it. I knew which star it was anyhow. Do you understand why?

 

[nomuse]

In many books there is reference to "life boat scenarios"........The problem with Kranz's statement is that it is out of context at that point in the chain of events. It is way too early. Kranz has foreknowledge of the fraud's "script".......There is no reason to bring it up.

There is no need for the astronauts to even consider using the LM 15 minutes in. The problem could be a simple instrument problem and have NOTHING TO DO WITH LOISS OF OXYGEN FROM THE CRYO TANKS. The fuel cells have not been determined to have failed and so forth. It is 15 minutes in and Kranz is talking about DISASTER. Listen to the tapes.........

So same point to you. You have not heard the EECOM tapes and your argument is reflective of that. Your own statement is out of context given the tapes.

If you listen to the tapes you will hear that NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAS HAPPENED FOR MANY HOURS. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ANY OF THE FLIGHT OFFICERS TO THINK THERE WAS AN OXYGEN TANK EXPLOSION, NONE!!!

LISTEN TO THE TAPES!!!

Oh, but of course. It could have been something else that exploded and was venting from the spacecraft. No reason to be concerned!

This is from the same poster who claims a lightning strike with NO detected damage to any system requires an immediate abort, and a stomach upset with no actual determined infection also requires an immediate abort.

But a fracking EXPLOSION that tears a hole in the side of the spacecraft, sends temperature readings soaring, causes red lights all over the console, and includes visible venting is NOT A CONCERN?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The problem with the star sighting/IMU alignment issue is we have no way to empirically check one position against the other.

The problem with your "problem" is that you haven't thought through its consequences. If the platform was so far adrift from its indicated orientation that the astronauts aligned on the wrong star, then every other star they checked would be out of position.

But if, as expected, every subsequent star they checked appeared exactly in the reticule, then they had certainly aligned on the correct star.

Do you understand this simple concept?

Do you now understand that this was a trivial way to empirically check one position against the other?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Listen to the EECOM tapes and read Liebergot's book and you will learn abaddon that at the time of the crew/shift change, ONE HOUR AFTER the "Houston we have a problem call", LIEBERGOT STILL HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT AN OXYGEN TANK HAD EXPLODED AND CAUSED THE PROBLEM. Liebergot had no idea what was causing the problems then, no one did...

So it's your contention that an hour or so after the loud bang, voltage drop, indicated loss of all pressure in the oxygen tank and report of gas venting into space, Liebergot was absolutely stumped. He had no vestige of an idea what could possibly account for these symptoms. He was still utterly confused, bewildered and "had no idea what was causing the problems". Not even a clue. Is that your contention?

 

[abaddon]

EVIDENCE???? What have I been writing about for the last half dozen or so posts abaddon?

What have you been writing? An honest answer would violate the MA.

The EVIDENCE is nothing other than the actual EECOM loop tapes themselves. THE EVIDENCE CAN BE HEARD EVER SO LOUD AND CLEAR. THE EVIDENCE IS NASA'S OWN APOLLO 13 EECOM LOOP TAPES. LISTEN TO THEM ABADDON!!!

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that
A: All dicussion in the MCC was captured on the tapes, and
B: All caps somehow adds weight to your claims, and does not make you appear as a troll/child.

In Sy Liebergot's own words, there was constantly a cluster of controllers around the EECOM console discussing the problem, including flight, GNC, FIDO etc, all of which discussion was not recorded on the tapes.

Once again, you have cherry picked a quote, but omitted the parts which torpedo your claims.

Kranz's claim is explicit. He says in his book and in his History Channel film that sometimes goes by the same name, FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION, that at 15 minutes in to the Apollo 13 situation, 15 minutes from the time of the "Houston we have a problem" call from the astronauts, NOT ONLY HE, KRANZ, BUT EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL WAS AWARE THAT OXYGEN TANK NUMBER TWO HAD EXPLODED. This is Kranz's claim, about this there can be no doubt. Read Kranz's book FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION abaddon, and watch Kranz's film including a watch with commentary. There is NO QUESTION, THIS IS KRANZ'S CLAIM, 15 MINUTES IN EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT. KRANZ CLAIMS EVERYONE IN MISSION CONTROL 15 MINUTES FROM THE TIME OF THE "HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM CALL" KNEW O2 TANK NUMBER TWO HAD EXPLODED AND THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF "COLLATERAL DAMAGE ON THAT BASIS. KRANZ IS EXPLICIT.

And you know this is untrue because you were present at the time to overhear all of the offline unrecorded discussion, right?

Now, if one reads Liebergot's book, one reads first of all that it was up to Liebergot to figure out what happened. Liebergot knew more than anyone. One hour after the famous Apollo 13 astronaut call, Liebergot was relieved by Lunney's Black Team crew. Listen to the EECOM tapes and read Liebergot's book and you will learn abaddon that at the time of the crew/shift change, ONE HOUR AFTER the "Houston we have a problem call", LIEBERGOT STILL HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT AN OXYGEN TANK HAD EXPLODED AND CAUSED THE PROBLEM. Liebergot had no idea what was causing the problems then, no one did.

Within 15 minutes they knew O2 tank 2 was a total loss.

Directly contradicting Liebergot's personal account in the book APOLLO EECOM and directly contradicting the account as provided in the EECOM LOOP TAPES, Kranz on the other hand claims that not only he but LIEBERGOT AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE MISSION CONTROL ROOM, EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE KNEW 45 MINUTES PRIOR TO THE WHITE TO BLACK CREW CHANGE THAT O2 TANK NUMBER TWO EXPLODED. Read Liebergot's book and most importantly LISTEN TO THE EECOM LOOP TAPES.

Did that. You are deliberately misrepresenting what actually happened.

And very much to the point as well, IT TURNS OUT THAT IT IS HOURS AND PERHAPS DAYS EVEN before anyone knows that an oxygen tank has exploded. Listen to the tapes!!!! Kranz is flat out NAILED here. NAILED NAILED NAILED......

Misrepresentation again. You are simply hoping no one will check up on this. You are wrong.

So Kranz claims he knows something 15 minutes in to the Apollo 13 drama that no one could possibly have known at that time unless that person were an insider to a fraudulent SCRIPT. THERE IS NO WAY KRANZ OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER COULD HAVE KNOWN AT THAT TIME THERE WAS AN O2 TANK EXPLOSION UNLESS THE EXPLOSION WAS STAGED AND THE MISSION FRAUDULENT. As such, one concludes this to be the case.

Unfounded conjecture. Invalid assumptions. Mistaken conclusion.

The EECOM tapes themselves supply the abundant and incontrovertible evidence for this abaddon. The tapes confirm my claims and incriminate Kranz, inculpate him. He is guilty of Apollo 13 Mission Fraud participation without question. .

Wrong.

Additionally, Sy Liebergot's own account of the Apollo 13 events as told in his book APOLLO EECOM provides solid evidence for my claims and incriminates/inculpates Kranz as well.

Wrong.

The tapes provide very explicit audio evidence and that evidence is supported/corroborated by Liebergot's account as provided in his book APOLLO EECOM. Read Liebergot's book and listen to the Apollo 13 EECOM tapes beginning from the time of the "Houston we have a problem" call"......

Did that. You are still wrong.

This is without question by far the most significant finding in the history of Apollo Program research, regardless of researcher perspective going in.

Does your ego knows no bounds? The time for honouring yourself is over. Present some actual evidence that will stand up.

This is nothing less than incontrovertible evidence that flight director Gene Kranz could not have possibly known what he claims to have known(O2 tank explosion) when he knew it(15 minutes in) unless he was a fraud insider.

It is nothing of the sort.

And so, one may conclude now with absolute metaphysical certainty, that Gene Kranz is a fraud insider and that ALL OF APOLLO IS FRAUDULENT...

It is indeed an ever so ever so ever so beautiful day..........Hallelujah......

No, "one" may not.

 

[SUSpilot]

Patrick.- what are you going on about? I'm not bothering to quote your walls of text regarding Apollo 13 because it would be silly. I did re-read the relevant chapter of Failure Is Not An Option last night (Berkeley Press edition, 2001). On page 314, Eugene Kranz laments wasting 15 minutes of valuable time because an oxygen tank exploded. Now, whether he intuited that at the time or filled it in nearly 30 years later is not clear. What is clear s that, in his descriptions of conversations with Chris Kraft, Lunney, et al, he never says anything about an O2 tank explosion. He does talk about losing consumables and power rapidly, using the LM, and so on.

I refer you to page 316 of the book - Gene Kranz to Milt Windler, Maroon Team Leader:

"I don't want to jettison the lunar module. We haven't nailed down the exact cause of the explosion or the extent of the damage. The main engine or control systems may have been damaged. We need more time to work out the procedures for the return." [emphasis added]

The whole narrative, including the quote above, is entirely consistent with the data from the telemetry and the fact that the crew reports of a "bang" and venting of gas.

Patrick, you've shown again that you're either a very poor researcher, or that you will do anything you anything to beat known facts into whatever shape it takes to fit your preconceived notions. Or both.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd pay good money to watch a debate between you and Gene Kranz. Why don't you take Jay up on his offer to be put in contact with him, since you're so sure of yourself? I'm sure there are many public forums where such a debate can take place. I've only met Mr. Kranz, and he wouldn't remember me at all. But I do know some mutual contacts in the St. Louis area, where Kranz went to college, that might be interested in hosting such a debate.

 

[abaddon]

For anyone interested, here is some of the audio from the EECOM loop. (warning: nearly 400 MB)

It is clear that within 15 minutes that it was determined that:

A loud bang was heard by the astronauts.
Fuel cell 1 and 3 were dead.
O2 tank 2 was dead.
O2 tank 1 was bleeding to death.
AC2 was dead.
And so forth.

Surely, Patrick, it isn't "rocket science" to postulate what had happened, is it?
Surely, it is only "common sense".

 

[Erock]

So it's your contention that an hour or so after the loud bang, voltage drop, indicated loss of all pressure in the oxygen tank and report of gas venting into space, Liebergot was absolutely stumped. He had no vestige of an idea what could possibly account for these symptoms. He was still utterly confused, bewildered and "had no idea what was causing the problems". Not even a clue. Is that your contention?

I would have a clue, so I tend to go with the idea that all involved would strongly suspect this. Attempting to recover the situation seems perfectly logical, until such point as they know for certain.

Only in the wall of text world of Patrick, do we get definitives based on his running the zoo fallacy with zero actual engineering experience.

I just watched the film of this on youtube, so at least something positive came out of this latest line of nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZI3P4wv5Mo

 

[Patrick1000]

You knew what star it was because you know up from down....

I saw a star last night. It was by itself; I didn't see any stars near it. I knew which star it was anyhow. Do you understand why?

You knew what star it was because you know up from down....East from west, north from south. You were oriented by your feet being on the ground and knowledge of the earth's horizon. Were you in cislunar space and shown that star without any terrestrial clue, not knowing north/south, east/west , up/down, you could not have identified it. You used your own planet to orient yourself. That is cheating. Sure you could sight the earth's horizon in cislunar space nomuse, but so what?

You identified your star because you were oriented. That would absolutely not be the case in cislunar space. And Apollo astronauts, a guy like Bean or Duke, they wouldn't do as well as you. These guys are busted on this point nomuse, simple as that.

 

[JayUtah]

With all due respect Jay, I most certainly did not accuse Loss Leader of not paying attention...He is attentive and very astute.

Yes, he is. But you said...

No, Loss Leader you continue to miss my point and the FACT about the alleged Apollo system.

In fact, Loss Leader has astutely considered your arguments along with those of qualified professionals. He has drawn a conclusion, and that conclusion is that your proposition is wrong. Repeating your proposition, following an accusation that he is missing your point, is not useful. Loss Leader has rejected your point. Kindly stop trying to make it.

The problem with the star sighting/IMU alignment issue is we have no way to empirically check one position against the other.

No. Your problems with the IMU alignment procedure are that you don't know how it works, you have no experience doing it -- or anything like it, and you substitute your wild supposition in place of knowledge and experience.

Professional space engineers like me have no problem with the process as described. Professional navigators have no problem with the process as described. Only Patrick, the man who has never looked at the sky and never operated an inertial system, seems to have a problem with it.

You remind me of the story of the woman watching her soldier son march in a parade with his unit. They come around the corner, and she points to her son -- who is obviously out of step -- and says to the bystanders, "Look at that! They're all out of step except for my Jim!"

We need to do my Gedanken Experiment and we have no access to cislunar space.

A Gedankenexperiment is one that is done without access to the environment and without apparatus. It is meant to structure an intellectual analysis of a topic. You don't need access to cislunar space, by definition, in order to do one.

It doesn't matter anyway, since we have empirical evidence. We don't need to elaborately think through the problem of star visibility, since tens of thousands of amateur astronomers do it every night under all manner of seeing conditions. A Gedankenexperiment is superfluous when we can simply do the real experiment.

Although Loss Leader will give me yet another verbal chastisement for this, I'm sure, I will point out that your desire to try to reason toward some proposition that others can easily esablish by direct observation, is highly illogical. It serves no purpose except to try to throw mud on what otherwise would be a clear conclusion.

Finally, it's disingenuous to demand that the only way your point can be proven is to perform some experiment that's impossible. Therefore, given the impossibility of the test, according to you, we should just assume the test will confirm your point.

 

[Patrick1000]

You have not listened to the tapes......

Oh, but of course. It could have been something else that exploded and was venting from the spacecraft. No reason to be concerned!

This is from the same poster who claims a lightning strike with NO detected damage to any system requires an immediate abort, and a stomach upset with no actual determined infection also requires an immediate abort.

But a fracking EXPLOSION that tears a hole in the side of the spacecraft, sends temperature readings soaring, causes red lights all over the console, and includes visible venting is NOT A CONCERN?

You have not listened to the tapes......Your post is out of context. You need to listen to what was going in the Mission Control Room....

My finding Kranz's multiple and clear claims of Oxygen tank explosion knowledge in both the book and film FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION, Sy Liebergot's personal account of Apollo 13 drama events in his book, the EECOM tapes themselves and Kranz's own Flight Director Mission Log Book is the most significant event in the entire history of Apollo. More significant even that the staged Apollo 11 landing and phony Apollo 13 tank explosions themselves, as my findings place these staged events in their appropriate fraudulent perspective nomuse.

You really shouldn't comment on this point again until after you have reviewed these materials along with Kranz's book and film as mentioned.

You must deal with my evidence now and it is incontrovertible.

 

[Patrick1000]

Al Worden himself said he could not tell on star from another.....

The problem with your "problem" is that you haven't thought through its consequences. If the platform was so far adrift from its indicated orientation that the astronauts aligned on the wrong star, then every other star they checked would be out of position.

But if, as expected, every subsequent star they checked appeared exactly in the reticule, then they had certainly aligned on the correct star.

Do you understand this simple concept?

Do you now understand that this was a trivial way to empirically check one position against the other?

Al Worden himself said he could not tell one star from another when flying through space on the dark side of the moon. He said there were simply too many stars so there was no context for sighting. I have already provided that interview as a reference for this most excellent point of mine. What makes you think you could do what an Apollo astronaut said he could not Jack by the hedge?

 

[Patrick1000]

You need to listen to the tapes.......

So it's your contention that an hour or so after the loud bang, voltage drop, indicated loss of all pressure in the oxygen tank and report of gas venting into space, Liebergot was absolutely stumped. He had no vestige of an idea what could possibly account for these symptoms. He was still utterly confused, bewildered and "had no idea what was causing the problems". Not even a clue. Is that your contention?

You need to listen to the tapes.......You and your colleagues are in for a big fat surprise.........Kranz is going down over this one Jack by the hedge...... He lied his phony rump off and I nailed him. LISTEN TO THE TAPES BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON THIS AGAIN......