Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dougm]

I know, but that is not something which would be visible to passing burglars. The fact, if it is a fact, that they tended to blow open as well is more important because that is visible and, as I said, explains 'Guede's' choice of window.

My point is that the shutters blowing open, while possible, is not really a likely logic point. Given that the shutters did not lock, did not close easily due to warping of the wood, and the testimony of Filomena that she does not think they were closed all the way, it is entirely possible for Rudy to have seen them ajar, even a little, or simply be aware of how shutters of this type work in Perugia. It is my experience that exterior shutters are rarely used as a crime deterrant anyway, it is the interior versions, and/or the window itself. Shutters are easy to break open if need be.

So although it is likely that the wind could have opened the shutters, it is really not necessary, IMO, to any theory of what happened.

 

[pilot padron]

What I see in arguments such as this is a misunderstanding of how DNA forensics are used to convict criminals. DNA is a very precise science, which is why it is considered so damning when DNA results prove someone was at the scene of a crime -- if done correctly, DNA is pretty inarguable. Being as precise as it is, if proper procedures are not followed in the collection and/or testing, the results cannot be relied on.

So, when one of the experts replied to a question in court by saying "anything is possible", that meant that the DNA is totally unreliable to use as evidence of anything.
If "anything is possible", that means nothing is certain. DNA analysis is not a type of science where it "might be" the DNA of the person -- if there is a question of the reliability of the analysis, especially if there are many questions, the whole thing should be thrown out.

Humbled to see that an argument of mine from so many pages back is still worthy of being resurrected to be a subject of current posts.

Please direct attention to that the portion of the above post that I have taken the liberty of bolding.
I have done so only to assist readers.
My intent is only to ameliorate apparent past difficulties in 'following what I say' here.

May I humbly suggest that a merry myriad of convicted incarcerated murderers throughout the universe are happily hacking away in Prison Law Libraries even as we speak.
They are gleefully copying the conclusion that I have bolded above.

These convicted murderers are doing so because IMHO, that bolded conclusion has some very significant implications for them all.
That conclusion is precisely why many have opined that this unique, radical approach to dna should not be allowed to stand.
Many feel that if allowed to stand and be accepted by jurists other than Hellmann, the C&V unique 'anything is possible' very academic and hardly functional approach to dna would logically then set thousands of convicted murderers and other convicted lawbreakers free
This because of the obvious inherent 'reasonable doubt'.

 

[Bob001]

Is Nadeau still a guilter?

I heard Barbie Nadeau on CNN a few minutes ago reporting on the shipwreck in Italy. All I know about her is that her crappy book about Amanda Knox is often disparaged here. Is she a legitimate journalist, "legitimate" meaning a history of covering a variety of stories for responsible organizations? Or did her book somehow give her legitimacy (did it take her from random freelancer to "best-selling author")? Or what? I'm asking because a legitimate journalist would revise her views when new information came to light. Has she changed her views about Knox after the acquittal?

 

[smkovalinksy]

So now I am more than a bit annoyed, as I do not understand their having until Feb. 18 to file, as per Andrea Vogt's tweet.

Why the extension beyond the 45 days? Did Galati request this?

Although the TJMK article says nothing new - and in fact says very little, and seems backed by very little expect Q's usual bravado and bad predicting - this additional waiting period is not pleasant.

Friday, January 13, 2012

Umbria’s Very Tough Chief Prosecutor Will Proceed Against Knox And Sollecito And Also Aviello

Posted by Peter Quennell

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Andrea Vogt @andreavogt
For those asking: court sources say deadline for #Perugia prosecutors/Kerchers to file #amandaknox cassation appeal is Feb. 18.

 

[Dan O.]

By the way, this is another of those events in Rudy's story that could conceivably parallel the truth. I believe he mentioned hearing a noise from downstairs while he was sitting on the can.

You need to keep clear what is fact and what is speculation. We have a fact that Rudy claimed to have heard a noise from downstairs and he claims that is why he left the cottage instead of sticking around to help Meredith. I had previously speculated that Rudy did hear a noise but it was earlier when Rudy was sitting on the toilet. If rudy had been sitting on the toilet at the time Meredith came home and if Meredith chose to check on the cat before entering her own apartment, Rudy could have heard the door to the downstairs apartment closing and would have just enough time to finish up his own paper work before Meredith would be opening the door upstairs.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This will be my last remark on this whole Galati thing, as I know the conversation is elsewhere, but it riles me. It really is the crux of it all, as well.

I still wonder why they have until Feb. 18 to file, and it makes me think Galati really has requested additional time.

This posted comment on the article of the "breaking news" about Galati sums it up for me:

It’s pleasing to hear that the prosecutors are going to appeal. I hope the judges at the Italian Supreme Court reverse Hellman’s insane verdict and that the US Department of State honours the extradition treaty between America and Italy and sends Amanda Knox back to Italy so she can serve the rest of her life sentence. No-one should ever be allowed to get away with sexual assault and murder. Knox’s gender, class and nationality are completely irrelevant. I also hope Sollecito is sent back to Capanne prison.

Posted by The Machine on 01/13/12 at 03:51 PM |

 

[smkovalinksy]

Forgot to add:
So this brand new Perugia Chief of Prosecution, Giovanni Galati, is an admirer of Mignini's , was against the C & V report, and supposedly was inspired to advocate for open information by the damage done to truth by the "Knox PR machine"? I hope this is another of Q's overestimations (and he is famous for them). I just wish we now did not have to wait until Feb. 18 instead of Jan. 29.

 

[Grinder]

It's my understanding that Meredith did not have any alcohol on the day she was murdered. There was a test that showed a large amount of alcohol, but it seems that this should crtainly be discounted - it was certainly a mistake in the testing.

From Massei

I don't get your post. The quote from Massei clearly says that she had .43g/l as measured by Lalli and verified by the liver test.

In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine of Perugia, rather than with the value of 2.72.

The quote indicates that she had been drinking but wasn't as smashed as the 2.72 would indicate.

 

[el buscador]

As for why and when Amanda fell under suspicion, IIRC from Candace Dempsey's book, Sophie, one of Meredith's friends, told the police on the 3rd that Meredith was concerned with the men that Amanda brought to the house. According to Dempsey, this statement brought a lot of attention to Amanda. Strange men coupled with what the police perceived as strange behavior, the one who basically found the body, the one who had a new relationship with yet again another man, and so on.

I wonder at the date and time that the phone wire taps began.

 

[anglolawyer]

My point is that the shutters blowing open, while possible, is not really a likely logic point. Given that the shutters did not lock, did not close easily due to warping of the wood, and the testimony of Filomena that she does not think they were closed all the way, it is entirely possible for Rudy to have seen them ajar, even a little, or simply be aware of how shutters of this type work in Perugia. It is my experience that exterior shutters are rarely used as a crime deterrant anyway, it is the interior versions, and/or the window itself. Shutters are easy to break open if need be.

So although it is likely that the wind could have opened the shutters, it is really not necessary, IMO, to any theory of what happened.

Well, I am slightly surprised at that, but not willing to go to the scaffold on the point because the staging is a good deal less likely than the burglary.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I heard Barbie Nadeau on CNN a few minutes ago reporting on the shipwreck in Italy. All I know about her is that her crappy book about Amanda Knox is often disparaged here. Is she a legitimate journalist, "legitimate" meaning a history of covering a variety of stories for responsible organizations? Or did her book somehow give her legitimacy (did it take her from random freelancer to "best-selling author")? Or what? I'm asking because a legitimate journalist would revise her views when new information came to light. Has she changed her views about Knox after the acquittal?

I think she is a decent journalist; she covers a wide variety of topics for The Daily Beast, Newsweek, and CNN Travel; she has also done interviews for NBC Dateline and A&E.

I believe she is noble enough to recant her position on Knox.

She may be awaiting the court of cassation ruling, or perhaps does not want to go public with it.

On the other hand, I hope I am not giving her too much credit.

 

[smkovalinksy]

As for why and when Amanda fell under suspicion, IIRC from Candace Dempsey's book, Sophie, one of Meredith's friends, told the police on the 3rd that Meredith was concerned with the men that Amanda brought to the house. According to Dempsey, this statement brought a lot of attention to Amanda. Strange men coupled with what the police perceived as strange behavior, the one who basically found the body, the one who had a new relationship with yet again another man, and so on.

I wonder at the date and time that the phone wire taps began.

Yes, and it seems that all the flat mates needed very little prompting from the police, to begin making suggestive remarks about Knox. Her fate was sealed.

 

[Grinder]

I think she is a decent journalist; she covers a wide variety of topics for The Daily Beast, Newsweek, and CNN Travel; she has also done interviews for NBC Dateline and A&E.

I believe she is noble enough to recant her position on Knox.

She may be awaiting the court of cassation ruling, or perhaps does not want to go public with it.

On the other hand, I hope I am not giving her too much credit.

Before the Knox case she was a travel and restaurant review writer.

Current bio http://www.barbielatzanadeau.com/

Her CNN, BBC and NPR performances are almost exclusively about Knox. She is a college dropout and was and is a part time stringer.

Check out the show with Pisa, Vogt and Nadeau on Dateline New Zealand.

In my opinion she is a dim-witted less than forthright person.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Before the Knox case she was a travel and restaurant review writer.

Current bio http://www.barbielatzanadeau.com/

Her CNN, BBC and NPR performances are almost exclusively about Knox. She is a college dropout and was and is a part time stringer.

Check out the show with Pisa, Vogt and Nadeau on Dateline New Zealand.

In my opinion she is a dim-witted less than forthright person.

I was giving her too much credit, mayhap. Well, is she still a guilter?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

are they within experimental error?

I don't get your post. The quote from Massei clearly says that she had .43g/l as measured by Lalli and verified by the liver test.



The quote indicates that she had been drinking but wasn't as smashed as the 2.72 would indicate.

Grinder,

Why do you think that the liver number is less than half of the blood value?

 

[Grinder]

I was giving her too much credit, mayhap. Well, is she still a guilter?

I think she is too vapid to have a strong opinion. My complaint isn't that she has an opinion, it's that she gets things wrong. She still says there was mixed blood of MK and AK with no evidence of such. I also don't believe that she talked to ten forensic experts as she claimed.

The SBS Australian Dateline show doesn't seem to be available but if someone has a link it gives a good incite into the key reporters on the case.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

Why do you think that the liver number is less than half of the blood value?

The professor's testimony was that .2 was consistent with .43 blood.

Also, I would assume you would have long ago found any science out there to refute the Massei conclusion on the alcohol content.

If you are testing my inventiveness or Google capabilities, I guess given that alcohol moves quickly from the stomach to the blood system and then is processed by the liver The amount of alcohol in the liver being only related to the amount in the blood but at a lower measurement number.

Why do you think?

 

[RoseMontague]

This will be my last remark on this whole Galati thing, as I know the conversation is elsewhere, but it riles me. It really is the crux of it all, as well.

I still wonder why they have until Feb. 18 to file, and it makes me think Galati really has requested additional time.

This posted comment on the article of the "breaking news" about Galati sums it up for me:

Quote:
It’s pleasing to hear that the prosecutors are going to appeal. I hope the judges at the Italian Supreme Court reverse Hellman’s insane verdict and that the US Department of State honours the extradition treaty between America and Italy and sends Amanda Knox back to Italy so she can serve the rest of her life sentence. No-one should ever be allowed to get away with sexual assault and murder. Knox’s gender, class and nationality are completely irrelevant. I also hope Sollecito is sent back to Capanne prison.

Posted by The Machine on 01/13/12 at 03:51 PM |

I still don't see where PQ is getting his information from. Vogt seems to be responding to some questions about it, probably due to the TJMK article.

My reading of the criminal code is that Maresca can prepare and file an official request for appeal to the AG or Prosecutor of the appeal trial but it is up to them to file the appeal with the SC (or not). Have either of the two Italian legal experts at PMF commented on this? The code is a bit confusing with Google translation making it even more difficult.

 

[bookworm]

Hi Fine

I think the stranger seen lurking in the yard was never given the attention it deserved. Apparently the sighting made Meredith very nervous. Rightly so, tragically.

This exact event is something that has made me wonder numerous times if the whole attack was sexually motivated first. I think it's VERY possible that Rudy was stalking one of the girls to some extent and this was a sexual attack first and not a burglary.

 

[Grinder]

The anything is possible remark was specific to the DNA testing method that Stefanoni used in this case. It referred to the sloppy collection techniques, the sloppy transportation, the outside of protocol lab procedures and the interpretation of the questionable results.

Since the C&V report has been out for half a year I imagine that thousands of people convicted based on DNA evidence have appealed. Hopefully one of those repeating the specious argument that finding the DNA work in the Knox/Solliceto trial will provide us with weekly updates to those convicted people filing appeals based on this.

Here an article Bad DNA results