The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[joobz]

The reason it's important to specifically debunk individual prophecy claims is that, if you don't, the fundamentalists can claim that the opposition simply refuses to take the claims seriously and hasn't effectively rebutted them.

Not only are the claims of science underwhelming, the bible doesn't include any theories which would have been of immense help.

Why is it that Jesus heals lepers in a grand display of magic instead of simply explaining Germ theory and antibiotic use? Think of the countless numbers who lived in suffering which could have been healed.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Actually, I don't have the time. Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, people can do their own research if they want. I'd start reading Isaiah Chapter 53 and go from there.

But since you're here anyway, you could read Tim's posts and reply to them, couldn't you?

ETA: I love doc's constant implications that he's a busy, busy man, in demand in all kinds of places, too busy to reply to posts in a forum where he already spends a great deal of time.

 

[TimCallahan]

Now let's consider Ross's assertion that the Bible was ahead of its time concerning medicine:

b5) the effect of emotions on physical health (Prov. 16:24, 17:22)

Okay, here's Prov. 16:24:

Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
sweetness to the soul and health to the body.

And here's Prov. 17:22:

A cheerful heart is a good medicine,
but a downcast spirit dies up the bones.

Ross may have a point here. However, this general observation that emotional health mirrors and affects physical health doesn't seem ll that divinely inspired. Also, I'm willing to bet Hippocrates said pretty much the same thing

b6) how to control contagious diseases (Lev. 13:45, 46)

Here are Lev. 13:45, 46:

The leper wo has the disease shall wear torn clothes and let the hair of his head hang loose, and he shal cover his lip and cry, "Unclean, unclean." He shall remain unclean as long as he has the disease; he is unclean; he shall dwell alone in a habitation outside the camp.

Again, are we to believe that nobody but the Israelites isolated lepers?

b7) importance of sanitation to health (Lev.; Num. 19: Deut. 23:12-13)

While I seem to have lost the citation from Leviticus in the process of transmission, I doubt that it matters. Numbers 19 details the uncleanness of someone who has touched a dead body. Deuteronomy 23:12, 13 are instructions to bury your excrement after taking a dump. Again, all of these seem like common sense, and, again, Ross gives no evidence that other ancient peoples acted differently. I recall a thread some time past in which p-doug asserted much the same sort of thing Ross asserts here. I remember that I found in Leviticus a weird bit of mumbo-jumbo about ridding a house of mildew by killing a bird in a bowl held over running water and spattering the wals of the house with the bird's blood.

b8) control of cancer and heart disease (Lev. 7-19) I may have gotten this citation wrong, but all I find here is a prohibition against eating unclean flesh.

ETA: Okay, I didn't get the citation wrong, merely the interpretation of it. Rosd was referring to leviticus, chapters 7 - 19. I skimmed these and found that they dealt with all manner of stuff, including ritual uncleanness, purification of women after menstruation, detection of skin diseases (collectively referred to as leprosy)and other material, none of which, s far as I can tell, dealt with either cancer or heart disease.

ETA 2: Regarding b7: I didn't get that citation wrong either. Apparently, Ross was referring to all of Leviticus. Okay, there's a lot of stuff about basic hygiene there, along with how to sacrifice various animals , how to rid a house of mildew using oumbo-jumbo and how women are unclean during - and after - menstruation, and how they have to sacrifice a dove for the sin of their uncleanness and take a ritual bath etc.

 

[TimCallahan]

I now have a prediction: DOC will suddenly be too busy to respond to my specific debunkings of Ross's prophecy fulfillments or his claims of scientific principles in the biblical text.

 

[joobz]

I now have a prediction: DOC will suddenly be too busy to respond to my specific debunkings of Ross's prophecy fulfillments or his claims of scientific principles in the biblical text.

He would never have actually responded to your responses. DOC doesn't actually directly address criticism. He resorts to Appeals to authority, red herrings and complaints of "attack the messenger". In fact, he will likely reply to my post rather than respond to any of your substantive ones.

I will leave it to the community to decide what that would mean.

 

[zooterkin]

And I predict he will make the same points again, maybe in a few weeks or months time, as if they had never been completely demolished (fine work, by the way, TimCallahan).

 

[Akhenaten]

I now have a prediction: DOC will suddenly be too busy to respond to my specific debunkings of Ross's prophecy fulfillments or his claims of scientific principles in the biblical text.

So you think this PHD astrophysicist wasted a lot of time and you're saying that Luke wasn't a great historian despite what Sir William Mitchell Ramsay had to say and you don't respect the opinions of Oxford historians who write 3 volume works (partially) about the time Jesus existed and about the empire that controlled the land Jesus lived in. Well if you don't respect that opinion that's your right, but I'm just putting information out there and it's not all about big, bad DOC and this is just another attack the messenger, no information post that doesn't address any specific post of mine.

[/DOC]

 

[zooterkin]

So you think this PHD astrophysicist wasted a lot of time and you're saying that Luke wasn't a great historian despite what Sir William Mitchell Ramsay had to say and you don't respect the opinions of Oxford historians who write 3 volume works (partially) about the time Jesus existed and about the empire that controlled the land Jesus lived in. Well if you don't respect that opinion that's your right, but I'm just putting information out there and it's not all about big, bad DOC and this is just another attack the messenger, no information post that doesn't address any specific post of mine.

[/DOC]

Nailed it.

 

[tsig]

So you think this PHD astrophysicist wasted a lot of time and you're saying that Luke wasn't a great historian despite what Sir William Mitchell Ramsay had to say and you don't respect the opinions of Oxford historians who write 3 volume works (partially) about the time Jesus existed and about the empire that controlled the land Jesus lived in. Well if you don't respect that opinion that's your right, but I'm just putting information out there and it's not all about big, bad DOC and this is just another attack the messenger, no information post that doesn't address any specific post of mine.

[/DOC]

Suddenly I see the insidious nature of DOC's plan, by posting the same thing for 101,000 times it enters your mind and takes over.

 

[TimCallahan]

Suddenly I see the insidious nature of DOC's plan, by posting the same thing for 101,000 times it enters your mind and takes over.

Yeah, it's sort of like the pod people in "invasion of the Body Snatchers."

 

[autumn1971]

DOC, DOC, lama sbachthani?

 

[DOC]

I now have a prediction: DOC will suddenly be too busy to respond to my specific debunkings of Ross's prophecy fulfillments or his claims of scientific principles in the biblical text.

Responding to a post is not necessarily debunking a post. The prophecies are out there, people can take their time to do their own research -- they've got a lifetime to do it. And I would check more than one translation of any verses you might mention.

Also things do get lost in translating. For example the Hebrew language didn't have comparisons like "good, better, best. That can cause some problems. Also Hebrew has no vowels, and the bible was originally written with no punctuation -- no commas, no periods, no quotation marks, no verse numbers. That can't help matters.

And I've already said I don't have the time in post 412 so your prophecy is after the fact. I'm not the one who brought this thread back after it was dormant for several years, but I'm glad is was brought back. Yes, Ross provided enough info to keep people busy for awhile. If Ross or myself or anyone else made any mistakes interpreting something as a prophecy when it wasn't, that is our mistakes, not the bibles.

 

[DC]

Responding to a post is not necessarily debunking a post. The prophecies are out there, people can take their time to do their own research -- they've got a lifetime to do it. And I would check more than one translation of any verses you might mention.

Also things do get lost in translating. For example the Hebrew language didn't have comparisons like "good, better, best. That can cause some problems. Also Hebrew has no vowels, and the bible was originally written with no punctuation -- no commas, no periods, no quotation marks, no verse numbers. That can't help matters.

And I've already said I don't have the time in here. I not the one who brought this thread back after it was dormant for several years, but I'm glad is was brought back. Yes, Ross provided enough info to keep people busy for awhile. If Ross or myself or anyone else made any mistakes interpreting something as a prophecy when it wasn't, that is our mistakes, not the bibles.

i have heard of bible prophecies, i think they are nonsense. incredibble odds? the odds to win the lotery are much smaller and still several people on this planet have won the lottery, last week alone.

 

[ddt]

Responding to a post is not necessarily debunking a post. The prophecies are out there, people can take their time to do their own research -- they've got a lifetime to do it. And I would check more than one translation of any verses you might mention.

Methinks Tim has done a fine job debunking them. As to translation, I note that Tim has gone back to the original Hebrew words in some cases and discussed their meaning. I have never seen you doing that. I'm suddenly reminded of the Greek original of Luke 2:2. Have you done some research on that yet?

Also things do get lost in translating. For example the Hebrew language didn't have comparisons like "good, better, best. That can cause some problems.

Here's a Hebrew grammar. From the name of the site, it seems geared at you.

In Hebrew, comparisons are formed by adding the preposition (min) to the word that acts as the object of the comparison.

And a JPost article:

From these three examples we see that English has three different ways of making comparative and superlative adjectives: different words, as in good/better/best (these are technically called supletive forms), with suffixes and with the words "more" and "most." The good news is that Hebrew, unlike English, has only one way of making comparatives and superlatives, and it corresponds to the "more"/"most" scheme.

And if you go on to claim that's about modern Hebrew, here are some books with Hebrew grammar with examples from the Tanakh (OT).

Also Hebrew has no vowels, and the bible was originally written with no punctuation -- no commas, no periods, no quotation marks. That can't help matters.

Grasping at straws, aren't you? Don't you think the editors of the Masoretic text have done their best to clarify that all? And then there's the Dead Sea scrolls, the early Greek translation of the Septuagint, etc. etc. to clarify possible misunderstandings.

And I've already said I don't have the time in here. I not the one who brought this thread back after it was dormant for several years, but I'm glad is was brought back. Yes, Ross provided enough info to keep people busy for awhile. If Ross or myself or anyone else made any mistakes interpreting something as a prophecy when it wasn't, that is our mistakes, not the bibles.

You don't have time to actually address criticisms, but you do have time to post lame excuses?

 

[Rincewind]

Now let's consider Ross's assertion that the Bible was ahead of its time concerning medicine:

b5) the effect of emotions on physical health (Prov. 16:24, 17:22)

Okay, here's Prov. 16:24:

Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
sweetness to the soul and health to the body.

And here's Prov. 17:22:

A cheerful heart is a good medicine,
but a downcast spirit dies up the bones.

Ross may have a point here. However, this general observation that emotional health mirrors and affects physical health doesn't seem ll that divinely inspired. Also, I'm willing to bet Hippocrates said pretty much the same thing

b6) how to control contagious diseases (Lev. 13:45, 46)

Here are Lev. 13:45, 46:

The leper wo has the disease shall wear torn clothes and let the hair of his head hang loose, and he shal cover his lip and cry, "Unclean, unclean." He shall remain unclean as long as he has the disease; he is unclean; he shall dwell alone in a habitation outside the camp.

Again, are we to believe that nobody but the Israelites isolated lepers?

b7) importance of sanitation to health (Lev.; Num. 19: Deut. 23:12-13)

While I seem to have lost the citation from Leviticus in the process of transmission, I doubt that it matters. Numbers 19 details the uncleanness of someone who has touched a dead body. Deuteronomy 23:12, 13 are instructions to bury your excrement after taking a dump. Again, all of these seem like common sense, and, again, Ross gives no evidence that other ancient peoples acted differently. I recall a thread some time past in which p-doug asserted much the same sort of thing Ross asserts here. I remember that I found in Leviticus a weird bit of mumbo-jumbo about ridding a house of mildew by killing a bird in a bowl held over running water and spattering the wals of the house with the bird's blood.

b8) control of cancer and heart disease (Lev. 7-19) I may have gotten this citation wrong, but all I find here is a prohibition against eating unclean flesh.

ETA: Okay, I didn't get the citation wrong, merely the interpretation of it. Rosd was referring to leviticus, chapters 7 - 19. I skimmed these and found that they dealt with all manner of stuff, including ritual uncleanness, purification of women after menstruation, detection of skin diseases (collectively referred to as leprosy)and other material, none of which, s far as I can tell, dealt with either cancer or heart disease.

ETA 2: Regarding b7: I didn't get that citation wrong either. Apparently, Ross was referring to all of Leviticus. Okay, there's a lot of stuff about basic hygiene there, along with how to sacrifice various animals , how to rid a house of mildew using oumbo-jumbo and how women are unclean during - and after - menstruation, and how they have to sacrifice a dove for the sin of their uncleanness and take a ritual bath etc.

So - nothing as simple as telling people to wash their hands, especially before preparing food, then?

 

[Akhenaten]

Responding to a post is not necessarily debunking a post.

No, but posting a comprehensive, point-by-point rebuttal not just of the post but of the source material on which it was based most certainly is.

When will you be debunking Tim Callahan's posts, by the way?

The prophecies are out there, people can take their time to do their own research -- they've got a lifetime to do it.

Why are you ignoring that such research has been done and presented here in this very thread? Could it be because you haven't undertaken any such research yourself and are simply parotting other apologists without the slightest attempt to apply critical thought to what you've read?

And I would check more than one translation of any verses you might mention.

No you wouldn't. You'd just post whatever your apologist du jour told you is the 'correct' translation.

Also things do get lost in translating. For example the Hebrew language didn't have comparisons like "good, better, best. That can cause some problems. Also Hebrew has no vowels, and the bible was originally written with no punctuation -- no commas, no periods, no quotation marks, no verse numbers. That can't help matters.

You have no idea about translating 'original' versions of the bible. It's beyond laughable that you'd pretend that you do.

And I've already said I don't have the time in post 412 so your prophecy is after the fact.

Yet you seem to have ample time to post meaningless dreck.

Why not take Tim's example and simply post the research that you did to arrive at your currently-held opinion in the first place? Shouldn't take too long to cut and paste from your notes.

I'm not the one who brought this thread back after it was dormant for several years, but I'm glad is was brought back.

It's not about you, DOC.

It does, however, present a wonderful opportunity for you to present the results of the more recent research you've undertaken into these matters which takes into account the reams of new information that constantly comes to light in the fields of history and archæology.

Yes, Ross provided enough info to keep people busy for awhile. If Ross or myself or anyone else made any mistakes interpreting something as a prophecy when it wasn't, that is our mistakes, not the bibles.

We know. Ross was wrong. You are wrong.

What makes you think this needed any clarification?

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I think I've said before that I have read and own Mr. Callahan's book, "Bible Prophecy".

I think it effectively shoots down the entire prophecy myth.

Just like "rabbits in the pre-Cambrian", I can envision an ancient prophecy that would blow my mind and change my view of the world:

"And it shall come to pass that an enterprise named "Apple Inc" shall close on a date which will be known as 1-13-2011 at 419.81"

That level of specificity might or might not lead me to a supreme being, but it would certainly raise hard questions about rigid world time lines and/or time travel and/or free will.

To date, I have never seen a prophecy that could not be covered by one of Mr. Callahan's explanations.

Would be cool, though!

 

[joobz]

Responding to a post is not necessarily debunking a post. The prophecies are out there, people can take their time to do their own research -- they've got a lifetime to do it. And I would check more than one translation of any verses you might mention.

Tim gave a very consistent, very rational point for point critique. Your response is a vauge handwavy attempt at avoiding discussion.

You should ashamed.

 

[zooterkin]

So - nothing as simple as telling people to wash their hands, especially before preparing food, then?

Indeed, or a recipe for Oral Rehydration Formula, which would have saved millions of lives too.

 

[tsig]

i have heard of bible prophecies, i think they are nonsense. incredibble odds? the odds to win the lotery are much smaller and still several people on this planet have won the lottery, last week alone.

"Fulfilled prophecies" is a lame argument because when you actually look up the passages as Tim has done you find that you need the look thru the spectacles of faith to see any relevance between the prophecy and the fulfillment.

So if you can see the 'fulfilled prophecy' you already have enough faith not to need it.