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Why vegans are simply better people

varwoche said:
3 of the 6 links had to do with a vegan diet.

This is even glibber than your prior post.
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Obviously you didn't read the studies. Only two were about vegans and they did not compare overall health, only two specific diseases. They were also diets prescribe by nutritionists and not what people are likely to eat without professional knowledge.
 
varwoche said:
I'm not going to try to defend the sources -- my knowledge is insufficient.
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http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-china-study-revisited/
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/06/final-china-study-response-html/#_edn59

How about these? I've already posted about the science of vegan diets in this thread, but most people seemed to ignore it. The second link is a long read -- it's an analysis of the data from the China Study, one thought to show some health benefits of vegan diets, but it actually ended up supporting a high protein omnivorous diet.
My favorite part of it is countering the notion that animal protein is cancerous with studies that show that animal protein is actually anti-cancerous.
However, the notion that complete protein is inherently carcinogenic is contradicted by more recent literature. Although Campbell’s focus on casein is understandable, given the research is chiefly his own, he does not acknowledge the abundance of similar studies showing that whey—another milk protein—consistently boasts anti-cancer properties,[59],[60],[61] including when studied under the same experimental conditions that demonstrate the carcinogenic qualities of casein.[62],[63] This is significant, as even a single example of animal protein inhibiting rather than spurring cancer invalidates Campbell’s hypothesis that the effects of casein can be extrapolated to all animal protein.
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Belz... said:
I prefer empathy, myself. It doesn't actually do anything for me except make me feel good about what I do, but at least I'm not expecting a cosmic reward.
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Having read nearly a dozen books on cognitive science I'm beginning to think that what we do best is explain and justify what we do post hoc.
 
bit_pattern said:
Sure, why not, but it's also a pretty damn good basis for an ethical system, I find :)
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Excellent. :) Now that we've established that speciesism itself isn't any great moral crime and the argument can be tossed aside as one of those things you have to try we can proceed to....

Is it fair to judge an animal, in this case a cat and it's karmic journey, using a strictly human set of standards? For example, my young female cat is a hunter, she kills for the thrill of the kill and now that she knows we don't appreciate her gifts of dead songbirds she doesn't bring home her quarry anymore.

I see her hunting all the time and I have to assume she's successful at least some of the time. I highly doubt, at such a young age ( two ) she's turned over a new leaf and merely enjoys the stalking.

How then, would my cat counteract that negative karma ? How would she accrue some positive karma assuming, that is, that the lap sitting she does is as much for her benefit as it is mine.

Or... a couple of days ago I had ants. not a lot of them, but one here, one there and I killed them with my thumb. Yesterday a house gecko moves in and..voila..no more ants, gecko and I are buds now, I named him Gary.

The gecko is only doing what's natural to him yet there's a benefit to me. Would Gary's actions helping keep my place bug free and my cat's actions being all catlike and doing the purring lapcat thing generate positive karma as a by product of doing what they naturally do ?
 
dafydd said:
Animals are there for us to eat. End of story.
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You're fond of trying to draw a halt to conversations.

Have you noticed that?

Any reason why that's the case?

End of story?

This story has just begun. I'd get used to the subject if I was you.
 
Stout said:
Excellent. :) Now that we've established that speciesism itself isn't any great moral crime and the argument can be tossed aside as one of those things you have to try we can proceed to....
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Well, no, you can't just toss it aside. It's not an argument I've made and just because I happen to think it as largely irrelevant to my personal choices it doesn't mean you can just "toss it aside"

Is it fair to judge an animal, in this case a cat and it's karmic journey, using a strictly human set of standards? For example, my young female cat is a hunter, she kills for the thrill of the kill and now that she knows we don't appreciate her gifts of dead songbirds she doesn't bring home her quarry anymore.

I see her hunting all the time and I have to assume she's successful at least some of the time. I highly doubt, at such a young age ( two ) she's turned over a new leaf and merely enjoys the stalking.

How then, would my cat counteract that negative karma ? How would she accrue some positive karma assuming, that is, that the lap sitting she does is as much for her benefit as it is mine.
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The cat would "accrue" karma the same way as everything else I would imagine, by cultivating compassion for other sentient beings. The fact that the cat has chosen to be born as such a sadistic animal as a cat would suggest to me that it probably has a long way to go with its karma "accrual" and there isn't much it can do in this life and, as such, I wouldn't bother wasting my time with the cats moral choices and obligations and instead focus on my own. That's what's great about Buddhism, it puts the control of ones destiny entirely in ones own hands, it's individual responsibility writ large.

Or... a couple of days ago I had ants. not a lot of them, but one here, one there and I killed them with my thumb. Yesterday a house gecko moves in and..voila..no more ants, gecko and I are buds now, I named him Gary.

The gecko is only doing what's natural to him yet there's a benefit to me. Would Gary's actions helping keep my place bug free and my cat's actions being all catlike and doing the purring lapcat thing generate positive karma as a by product of doing what they naturally do ?
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See above.
 
Tonight's menu is crab, clams, mussels and shrimp in a tomato broth. Everything is fresh never frozen. nomnomnomnom
 
Sound delicious, i'd be sure to deglaze the pan with some white wine then finish the broth with a dash of cream and some parsley and serve with some lovely crusty bread :)
 
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bit_pattern said:
Well, no, you can't just toss it aside. It's not an argument I've made and just because I happen to think it as largely irrelevant to my personal choices it doesn't mean you can just "toss it aside"



The cat would "accrue" karma the same way as everything else I would imagine, by cultivating compassion for other sentient beings. The fact that the cat has chosen to be born as such a sadistic animal as a cat would suggest to me that it probably has a long way to go with its karma "accrual" and there isn't much it can do in this life and, as such, I wouldn't bother wasting my time with the cats moral choices and obligations and instead focus on my own. That's what's great about Buddhism, it puts the control of ones destiny entirely in ones own hands, it's individual responsibility writ large.
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I wasn't trying to suggest it was an argument you'd made however it is often made in discussions like this. Interesting idea that the cat had a choice in being reborn a cat. I always thought that your karmic balance at the end of your life determined what you'd be reborn as.
 
Stout said:
I wasn't trying to suggest it was an argument you'd made however it is often made in discussions like this. Interesting idea that the cat had a choice in being reborn a cat. I always thought that your karmic balance at the end of your life determined what you'd be reborn as.
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Choice is very important. Our karma drives out choice but we are free at any time to liberate ourselves from birth-death, choice is a critical part of the Buddha's teaching. Ultimately, our destiny is our own and we are in complete control if we can train ourselves not to be deluded by the negative emotions that will result in choosing a poor life.
 
bit_pattern said:
Choice is very important. Our karma drives out choice but we are free at any time to liberate ourselves from birth-death, choice is a critical part of the Buddha's teaching. Ultimately, our destiny is our own and we are in complete control if we can train ourselves not to be deluded by the negative emotions that will result in choosing a poor life.
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Oi ! I read that about 15 times trying to wrap my head around it. OK I understand the concept of Nirvana however I fail to understand how an animal can chose to exercise compassion. Sure I'm sure we can come up with a few examples of animals acting compassionately however, in general, animals act in their own self interest often exhibiting cruelty for the sake of cruelty's sake'

I guess I hung up on the deluded by negative emotions idea. Would an animal feel something like guilt or would a negative emotion be along the lines of deriving pleasure from exercising power ?

Seems to me that if Nirvana is the goal, then choosing a life that involves being a predator would run counter to that goal.
 
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