The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[TimCallahan]

Since I've already done number 6 in Hugh Ross's list, here's number 7:

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1018.)

Here's the actual prophecy (Jer. 31:38 - 40):

Behold,the days are coming, says the LORD. when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. And the measuring line shall go out farther to the hill of Gareb, and shall then turn to Goah. The whole valley of dead bodies and the ashes and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east shall be sacred to the LORD. It shall not be uprooted nor overthrown any more forever.

So does the area encompassed by these boundaries constitute modern Jerusalem, or at least Jerusalem as it was in 1948? In a word, no. Gareb and Goah are impossible to identify. Evangelical apologists have arbitrarily located them far north of the old city to encompass the modern city. Further, they've erroniously located the "valley of dead bodies," the "ashes" and the "Brook Kidron" as continuing tis northeastern arc back to the Horse Gate complete the process.

In fact, the Hinnom Valley, where infant sacrifices had been performed, the likely location of the "valley of dead bodies," lies south of the Corner Gate; and the Kidron Valley, where the wadi Kidron runs, is east of the Hinnom Valley. In short, this encompasses the old city, which Jeremiah would have known. The reason fundamentalists have to make this prophecy fit the twentieth century is the final statement in Jer.31:40: "It shall not be uprooted nor overthrown any more forever." Of course, the city rebuilt after the Jews' return from Babylon was most certainly overthrown and uprooted by the Romans in the year 70.

 

[TimCallahan]

Okay, here's Prophecy #8 from Ross:

(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 120.)

All that Deuteronomy 29 actually says is that, it the people of Israel forsake their covenant with Yahweh, he will uproot them.

All that Is. 11:11 - 13 says is that "In that day" God will bring a remnant of his people back from Assyria, Egypt, Ethiopia (probably meaning Cush) Elam, Shinar (southern Mesopotamia), Hamath (a city in Syria, Pathros and the coastlands. The regions are all in the eastern Mediterranean and the Near East, whereas modern Israel was mainly populated by refugees from Europe.

Jeremiah 25:11 predicts that the people of Judah will be taken into captivity in Babylon for 70 years. Did this happen? Yes and no. The residents of Jerusalem were taken into captivity in 587 - an event Jeremiah witnessed, hence not prophetic - but were relased from that captivity by a decree from Cyrus the Great of Persia in 538 - 49 years later, not 70.

Hosea 3:4,5 merely say, without assigning a date or specifying a place of exile - or even mentioning exile, that the people of Israel would go for a time without a king or priest but would learn to fear the LORD in the latter days.

Luke 21:23, 24 is a generally apocalyptic prophecy including the statement that Jerusalem would be trodden down, all of which was made after the fact, since Luke was written ca. CE 80.

So, what Ross has done is to read a great deal of specific history into some prophecies that were vague, others that were inaccurate and still others that were written after the fact. There is simply no substance to his grand claim.

 

[TimCallahan]

Ross's prophecy #9 is a bit difficult to figure since I have no idea what he's talking about when he says that Edom had been originally fertile and had access to water:

(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

As far as I know, the region that was once Edom was always arid. The Bible would appear to agree with this assessment. Remember that Edom was another name for Esau, and the land was where he settled. When Esau finds that Jacob has stolen his blessing, he begs his father Isaac to give him a blessing as well. Isaac answers (Gen. 27:39):

Then Isaac his father answered him: "Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be, and away fro the dew of heaven on high. . . ."

So, here, in Genesis, the land of Edom is described as unfertile and arid. Thus, I have no idea what Ross is talking about in his unsupported claim.

 

[Pacal]

Well here are 3 out of the 13 he listed. He also said about 2000 out of 2500 have been fulfilled so far.

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml

Pathetic. First the book of Daniel was almost certainly written shortly after 200 B.C.E. and not before 500 B.C.E.

Finally getting dates out of Daniel's prophecy requires fudging and creatively interpreting the following passages among many. (From Daniel ch. 9.)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The date of Artaxerxes decree are heavily debated. It could be Artaxerxes I or Artaxerxes II, in other words after 400 B.C.E.

In otherwords this prophecy is accurate only if you read it the "right" way.

As for no. 2. This is assuming that you think Jesus was born in Bethlehem. I merely note that it appears that Jesus was claimed to be born in Bethlehem pricisely because it fulfilled prophecy. It is more likely he was born in Nazareth. The whole going home for your census thing reads like a post hoc story to "explain" that Jesus was "really" born in Bethlehem despite everyone thinking he was born in Nazareth. In other words it is post hoc.

As for number 3 well once again we have a story circulating that precisely because it fulfilled prophecy post hoc. Oh and the Bible gives two seemingly contradictory stories of Judas' death.

 

[TimCallahan]

I'm lumping the last four of Ross's supposedly stunning prophecies together in one post, because they all share the same lack of foundation: In all of them, the fulfillment of the prophecy is only found in the Bible. So, only if we accept the Bible as true without any evidence to support it, can we accept the fulfillment as true:

(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 107).

(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109).

(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 108).

(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013).

Taking each of these individually, we can see that what was written of Hiel rebuilding Jericho was specifically stated as fulfilling Joshua's prophecy (1 Kgs. 16:34): ". . . according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun." There is no independent attestation that this event actually happened - even were we to accept the Book of Joshua were historical and written centuries before the Book of Kings - neither of which are true.

The "eyewitness account" of Elijah's ascension is likewise without any independent attestation: "The Bible predicted it would happen and in that very same account it happened! Isn't that amazing?"

The same is true of the accounts in 2 Chronicles and in 1 and 2 Kings (prophecies 12 and 13), particularly if we remember that 1 and 2 Kings were originally one book (or, rather, scroll).

There's simply no substance here.

 

[TimCallahan]

I wonder if I'll hear from either DOC or Nodoubt with respect to my analysis of the prophecies Hugh Ross listed as so astounding.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I wonder if I'll hear from either DOC or Nodoubt with respect to my analysis of the prophecies Hugh Ross listed as so astounding.

Well, I'm impressed, anyhow.

 

[Rincewind]

Well, I'm impressed, anyhow.

Ditto!

And thanks for the work you put into debunking this...

 

[ddt]

I wonder if I'll hear from either DOC or Nodoubt with respect to my analysis of the prophecies Hugh Ross listed as so astounding.

Maybe DOC is on a 10-days study break - that is, 10 days for each prophecy? I'm impressed too, and thanks for taking the time to debunk them. Does Ross provide any reasoning behind the seemingly random probabilities?

 

[Brainache]

Maybe DOC is on a 10-days study break - that is, 10 days for each prophecy? I'm impressed too, and thanks for taking the time to debunk them. Does Ross provide any reasoning behind the seemingly random probabilities?

Another vote of thanks to Tim from me! And I would love to know how Ross worked out this one:

(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 108).

The chances of an entire army being destroyed by supernatural powers is only 1 in 108? How many wars have there been and just how many armies have been destroyed by spirit beings?

 

[Rincewind]

Another vote of thanks to Tim from me! And I would love to know how Ross worked out this one:


The chances of an entire army being destroyed by supernatural powers is only 1 in 108? How many wars have there been and just how many armies have been destroyed by spirit beings?

Maybe 1 in 108?

OK - I'll get my coat....

 

[DOC]

Maybe DOC is on a 10-days study break - that is, 10 days for each prophecy?

Actually, I don't have the time. Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, people can do their own research if they want. I'd start reading Isaiah Chapter 53 and go from there.

 

[joobz]

Actually, I don't have the time. Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, ...

Based upon Tim's excellent analysis, it seems Ross' "prophecies" are simply non-existent and potentially even intentionally missleading.

 

[Akhenaten]

Maybe DOC is on a 10-days study break - that is, 10 days for each prophecy?

Actually, I don't have the time.

I'll bet you have time to start another fiasco of a thread or add to the hilarity of the existing train wrecks that you've set in motion before you get around to answering Tim Callahan in any meaningful way though.

Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, people can do their own research if they want.

Some people have. And other people have read it. The consensus is that Ross is full of it.

You really should read the thread before posting the Weekly Dreck™

I'd start reading Isaiah Chapter 53 and go from there.

Of course you would, but that's not much help to those of us who would rather know the truth.

 

[dafydd]

Actually, I don't have the time. Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, people can do their own research if they want. I'd start reading Isaiah Chapter 53 and go from there.

Ross's little grey cells have let him down. Name five of these 'fulfilled' prophecies.

 

[X]

DOC, you really should read TimCallahan's excellent posts, before you go advising us to read Hugh Ross.

And I mean "read", not just skim.

 

[dafydd]

DOC, you really should read TimCallahan's excellent posts, before you go advising us to read Hugh Ross.

And I mean "read", not just skim.

And find out the truth! Perish the thought.

 

[welshdean]

I'd like to add my thanks too Tim.

Doc, the floor is all yours.

Doc?

Doc?

Doc?

Oh Doc, why have you forsaken us, again?

 

[Mister Agenda]

Actually, I don't have the time. Astrophycisist Hugh Ross' said there are 2000 fullfilled prophecies and listed some, people can do their own research if they want. I'd start reading Isaiah Chapter 53 and go from there.

'Cause that's who you go to for accurate analysis of scriptural claims: astrophysicists.

 

[welshdean]

While we're waiting for Doc to return, can I ask Dafydd, why the Noddy Holder pic?