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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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There are much better outlandish theories which implicate Raffaele and Amanda. They encouraged Rudy to believe Meredith wanted to see him alone, as a cruel joke, and he went there in hope, was rebuffed and murdered her (as one does in these situations). This explains why there was no evidence they were there - they weren't. They staged the burglary though, to divert any attention from themselves (taking care to throw rock from outside) and locked Meredith's door, but unfortunately came over all shifty and unconvincing the next morning.

It's complete bull, of course, but bears reasonable comparison with the PGP variety and actually fits the forensics better.
Yes, back in 2009 someone had proposed this scenario, claiming that the loud scream Nara allegedly heard would be Knox herself, discovering what Rudy had done. This makes some sense.

In this imagined scenario, Knox and Sollecito had encouraged Guede to go force himself on Kercher, not suspecting what would be the last consequence of such.

It does indeed fit in better with the forensics. Although why Knox and Sollecito would not haveat some point admitted that they sent Guede there and that he, and he alone, decided to escalate things to the point of murder, is a question. Four years would be about right for their part.

The author also said it would explain why Knox and Sollecito hung back a bit when the door was pushed in: "They knew what was in there". The duvet and the locked door are also explained within this theory.

This is the sole believable scenario involving Knox and Sollecito, and it does not point to premeditation nor assault nor murder: Just a dangerous gossipy-prank gone awry. Of course I do not believe it anymore, but I had entertained it at one time. The link is below. Of course, the material in it is dated and outmoded:

http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9580
 
I would like to draw people's attention to what I think is a new point relating both to time of death and the sequence of events. This emerges from a discussion over at IIP. Look at this photograph of the victim's shoes as found at the crime scene:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=277492512275227&set=pu.106344459390034&type=1
_________________

Anglo,

So why the heck were Meredith's left and right shoes found next to each other? The simplest explanation is that they were removed at the same time, at the same place, by the same person, while Meredith's feet were also next to each other. The assailant grabbed at the shoe laces to untie them. In one case the laces were loosened, in the other case the laces were tightened. Each shoe was pulled off whether the laces were untied or not. And if Meredith had removed one of her shoes, what was it doing in the center of her bedroom?

///
 
Just following up on my last post. A couple of excerpts from that 2009 post: Not relevant really anymore, but since anglolawyer brought up that theory, and I gave my remarks, just thought I would revisit it.

It is very lengthy, and has a lot of good thoughts in it, and does say the lone wolf scenario is "still a good option".

Amanda and Raff may have returned to the flat much later on that night and discovered what happened, after a fight earlier on, maybe not.
They may have run away in fright but then returned to the tennis courts like he said, either together or alone.
So they may have reappeared, but at this stage they're only staring at the house, because they were both too scared to go into it.
When you do go back in there, it might be a stressful situation. Amanda was very young at the time.

You can sometimes just watch a thing in life and go God, am I really involved. It can be happening in front of you and accelerating beyond a sphere you can recognise but in the situation you're in you're not really keeping up with the pace. If you walked in and found Meredith like that you are morally obliged first of all to see if she's still alive. You have to really. If it's a total stranger you won't go near that person. If it's someone you know, you will.
In shock it's very likely that when you summon the courage to go into the room you may be horrified to find that you've contaminated it. Imagine if you accidently stepped in some blood in Meredith's room. If you were nervous it could easily happen. You may find you've got other things to do now as well.
The loud arguing voices at 2am could be Raff screaming at Amanda for treading on it, and possibly moving Meredith, covering her, and just touching things.
The stronger possibility is that she went home alone, (possibly to patch up an earlier fight) and found Meredith, then went and got Raff (on this occasion, not the next day) When they returned later it's quite likely that was him yelling at her for having already disrupted the crime scene. They might have had a panicky fight.

What if the cops turned on Filomena in that nasty way they have....how would Filomena have responded to that ? The discovery of a really horrific murder isn’t anyone’s idea of one of their better times. People within that environment were being barked at and threatened with thirty years loss of life....within days.
The police definitely arrested and seriously roughed up... a minimum...of one innocent person at first.

The very first thing someone like Filomena or Amanda or whoever is going to want to do that day is get any semblance of blame shifted away from ...themselves.

It’s always good to be the one going up if someone else is going down.

Filomena didn’t need to worry about that though...there’s always Amanda.....
http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9580
 
When tired or lazy, I often take my right shoe off using the left shoe to push the heel of the right shoe and then untie the left shoe because pushing with an unshod right foot is difficult and hurts a bit.

Although an unpopular point, none of the scenarios accounts for her having .43 g/l of alcohol in her system. Yes, some alcohol can be created in the corpse but nothing has undone the findings of Lalli and other experts that testified.

I think trying to figure out exactly what happened is a bit of misdirection and a waste of time vis-a-vis whether the kids should have been convicted or even if they are totally innocent or not.

The ILE messed up so much of this case we will only know what happened if someone who was there comes clean.

I still think Kokomani looks very suspicious and could easily have been with Rudy and maybe someone else that night. The ILE could easily have missed evidence of someone else being there since they obviously focused on what they knew to be correct.

The truth is that the kids can't be proven to be innocent at this time but they certainly can't be proven to be guilty. The recent behavior by Raffaele as reported is consonant with his inconsistent behavior after the murder. It seems he totally fell apart after the murder and we don't exactly why.
 
Aren't they (or at least some of them) attempting to suggest that the "lock-in" lasted for a considerably longer period of time (even something approaching two hours in one particularly risible version!)? I don't think the suggestion is that this "lock-in" only lasted a matter of seconds, or even minutes.

Of course, it's all a) nonsense and illogical, and b) completely unsupported by the known evidence in any case. So I think we can safely view - and dismiss - all this "lock-in and wait" talk for what it is: the sad, biased, misanthropic, irrational scrabbling for something - anything - to link Knox and Sollecito to the murder.
I know. I am almost sorry I even posted the other 2, but anglolawyer got me recalling that past theory....I agree. And the shoes and books really do point conclusively to the lone wolf scenario, which is what Hellmann finds most probable as well.
 
_________________

Anglo,

So why the heck were Meredith's left and right shoes found next to each other? The simplest explanation is that they were removed at the same time, at the same place, by the same person, while Meredith's feet were also next to each other. The assailant grabbed at the shoe laces to untie them. In one case the laces were loosened, in the other case the laces were tightened. Each shoe was pulled off whether the laces were untied or not. And if Meredith had removed one of her shoes, what was it doing in the center of her bedroom?

///

She entered the room, tossed book and notebook on the bed (btw. it is pretty clear, by elimination, that the book on the bed is the one borrowed from Robyn as the one on the night stand has been identified as a novel, the one on the floor is a language dictionary and another on the table is buried under items like her hairdryer - a significant fact) she leans against the table and removes left shoe, which is tossed on the mat, or finishes up there. Rudy enters with advantages of strength, armament and, very important, total surprise. He moves an unresisting Meredith over to the wall by her bed, she is facing the wall, he is behind her. He stabs her in the throat, she puts her hand to the wound, places it on the wall, making the handprint. Blood falls to the floor immeiately below. All in a few seconds.

Now panic takes hold she tries to break free and the intensified struggle moves across the room diagonally, where she is brought down, rotated diagonally finishing up lying close to her final position, now helpless (perhaps unconscious) etc. (you know this and all the rest).
 
When tired or lazy, I often take my right shoe off using the left shoe to push the heel of the right shoe and then untie the left shoe because pushing with an unshod right foot is difficult and hurts a bit.

Although an unpopular point, none of the scenarios accounts for her having .43 g/l of alcohol in her system. Yes, some alcohol can be created in the corpse but nothing has undone the findings of Lalli and other experts that testified.

I think trying to figure out exactly what happened is a bit of misdirection and a waste of time vis-a-vis whether the kids should have been convicted or even if they are totally innocent or not.

The ILE messed up so much of this case we will only know what happened if someone who was there comes clean.

I still think Kokomani looks very suspicious and could easily have been with Rudy and maybe someone else that night. The ILE could easily have missed evidence of someone else being there since they obviously focused on what they knew to be correct.

The truth is that the kids can't be proven to be innocent at this time but they certainly can't be proven to be guilty. The recent behavior by Raffaele as reported is consonant with his inconsistent behavior after the murder. It seems he totally fell apart after the murder and we don't exactly why.
Yes, that is annoying and my girlfriend said she does the same thing (I am now watching her like a hawk) but look at the tied shoe more closely. The knotted part has been yanked up, pulling the eyes together. Compare with the other shoe where the eyes are apart. The knot does not seem to be doubled so just pulling at one of the loose ends should release it (theoretically still testable if Stefanoni has kept her hands off the damn things). Why would you reach down to yank ineffectually at your laces when you can reach down and just pull the knot undone?

And while I can see that the intellectual exercise may seem pointless, I don't agree that it is. It would be good for Amanda and Raffaele to land a knock out blow which puts all questions beyond doubt, save for the certifiably insane, as they will otherwise live out the rest of their lives under the shadow suspicion.

And while I have to confess, in all honesty, that I find the exercise compelling, I cannot believe there are not still lessons to be learned which may prove useful elsewhere.

And isn't this forum supposed to be for critical thinking anyway?
 
I think trying to figure out exactly what happened is a bit of misdirection and a waste of time vis-a-vis whether the kids should have been convicted or even if they are totally innocent or not.

The ILE messed up so much of this case we will only know what happened if someone who was there comes clean.

I still think Kokomani looks very suspicious and could easily have been with Rudy and maybe someone else that night. The ILE could easily have missed evidence of someone else being there since they obviously focused on what they knew to be correct.


This might conceivably be the case - but, as you say, we may never know unless Guede comes clean (after all, he's the only person who conceivably has anything at all to gain by doing so). I do, however, think that the available evidence tells us one thing loud and clear: Guede's claim of being an innocent bystander, who merely came across a dying Meredith and tried to help her, is a complete and utter lie. I say that because his known actions (and inaction) after the crime - not calling for help (either by phone or just by running to Piazza Grimana and yelling for help), not being seen at all getting back to his apartment (almost certainly since he chose to take the dark, quiet road outside the city walls, rather than the direct route up Corso Garibaldi), going out dancing within a couple of hours of the murder, and fleeing to Germany - are all entirely inconsistent with his version of events.

I think therefore that Guede was undoubtedly a prime mover in whatever happened in the cottage that evening, and that he was clearly aware of his massive culpability (and the need to attempt to gain an alibi viz the invisible journey home and the trip to the discos). In addition, if Guede really had been a bystander and someone other than Knox/Sollecito had been actual killer(s), I strongly imagine that Guede would have spilled the beans by the time of his appeal level retrial. After all, in that scenario he would have known that Knox/Sollecito weren't involved, and that if they were acquitted then the court would almost automatically conclude that he - Guede - was the main or sole perpetrator.

Personally, I've always felt that this was a lone crime, committed by a man who had previous form in B&E, and who had demonstrable issues when dealing with young women. I also think that the entirety of the evidence is consistent with this theory of the crime.


The truth is that the kids can't be proven to be innocent at this time but they certainly can't be proven to be guilty. The recent behavior by Raffaele as reported is consonant with his inconsistent behavior after the murder. It seems he totally fell apart after the murder and we don't exactly why.


The first sentence of this paragraph is correct and appropriate, but I still think that some people cannot get their heads around the asymmetry of proof - which not only is a legal maxim, but also a moral/ethical one. If one person (or government) makes an accusation against another, it's wholly incumbent upon the accuser to prove the accusation. The alternative should be blatantly obvious to anyone with the remotest sense of logic: imagine if we lived in a world where I could say to my neighbour: "My car is missing. I accuse you of stealing it. Unless you can prove that you didn't steal it, I shall assume you did steal it." Yet this is exactly the principle that some idiots seem to think should apply to Knox and Sollecito in this case. Extraordinarily poor reasoning skills.
 
In the latest "you couldn't make it up" installment, there appears to be a section of the pro-guilt community who seriously think that Knox has the obligation to go on TV (or elsewhere in the media) and explain her innocence!! This apparently includes an obligation for her to explain to the World exactly what she was doing on the night of the murder.

Do the people making these demands actually realise what it means to be acquitted of a crime? I don't recall there being a clamour for the Guildford 4 or those wrongfully convicted in the NYC Central Park Jogger case to "explain" why they were innocent. And nor should there have been. It's only being demanded in this particular case because there is a hard core of irrational, vindictive people who seemingly refuse to understand or accept that they have got virtually everything wrong about the Knox/Sollecito case, and who seem consequently to be unable to afford Knox/Sollecito the same basic rights afforded to anyone rightfully acquitted of a serious crime. It's not only sad to observe, it's actually pretty disgusting.
 
@LondonJohn:

Saw this question and reply on PMF. Is it safe to assume they do have some knowledge that it is "being worked on"?

Has an appeal been filed?


They're working on it.

I think there is still some time (a couple of weeks maybe?) before the deadline expires.
 
It's only being demanded in this particular case because there is a hard core of irrational, vindictive people who seemingly refuse to understand or accept that they have got virtually everything wrong about the Knox/Sollecito case, and who seem consequently to be unable to afford Knox/Sollecito the same basic rights afforded to anyone rightfully acquitted of a serious crime. It's not only sad to observe, it's actually pretty disgusting.

Yes, they seem to inhabit a parallel universe. The one that knows every business legal or illegal feels she needs to get out there now to have a chance for a $100,000 contract because that's how show biz works. He had the most entertaining ideas of what a drug dealer like Rudy does and had extreme worries about where Rudy would have kept his stash.

They firmly believe that if they repeat things often enough in their echo chamber it becomes real. Remember the refrain "contamination must be proven to exist" under Italian law?

They have not changed one iota of their name calling and accusations as a result of Hellmann's ruling.

By favorite right now is their attempts to rejigger their theories to fit the obvious TOD. Specifically my favorite pitch is that Rudy's Skype account was basically accurate for the time and everything pretty much, except the fact that he stated that AMANDA WASN'T THERE.
 
@LondonJohn:

Saw this question and reply on PMF. Is it safe to assume they do have some knowledge that it is "being worked on"?


No, it's categorically unsafe to assume that any pro-guilt commentator has any reliable "inside info" that a prosecution appeal is being "worked on". For one thing, any prosecution appeal would come from the office of the Attorney General of Umbria, and I would be fairly confident that not even "Pulitzer nominees" Vogt or Clouseau Nadeau have managed to cosy their way into the higher echelons of Umbria politics and judicial circles.

I believe therefore that the statement "they're working on it" is far more likely to be a totally unsupported bit of wishful thinking than any kind of direct knowledge of the Umbrian Attorney General's thoughts or preparations. Personally, I have a feeling (though not a strong one) that the Attorney General will decline to lodge a prosecution appeal. We'll see. But either way, I firmly believe that nobody outside of a very small group of people in Umbria (and that group doesn't include Mignini or Comodi, by the way) has any educated idea as to what will happen by the end of the month.
 
In the latest "you couldn't make it up" installment, there appears to be a section of the pro-guilt community who seriously think that Knox has the obligation to go on TV (or elsewhere in the media) and explain her innocence!! This apparently includes an obligation for her to explain to the World exactly what she was doing on the night of the murder.

Do the people making these demands actually realise what it means to be acquitted of a crime? I don't recall there being a clamour for the Guildford 4 or those wrongfully convicted in the NYC Central Park Jogger case to "explain" why they were innocent. And nor should there have been. It's only being demanded in this particular case because there is a hard core of irrational, vindictive people who seemingly refuse to understand or accept that they have got virtually everything wrong about the Knox/Sollecito case, and who seem consequently to be unable to afford Knox/Sollecito the same basic rights afforded to anyone rightfully acquitted of a serious crime. It's not only sad to observe, it's actually pretty disgusting.
This is a disturbing trend, fanned by the Nancy Grace/Wendy Murphy lynch-mob mentality, which is growing apace with decadence. You ought to have heard the blood-curdling near-demonic howls when Casey Anthony was acquitted.
 
No, it's categorically unsafe to assume that any pro-guilt commentator has any reliable "inside info" that a prosecution appeal is being "worked on". For one thing, any prosecution appeal would come from the office of the Attorney General of Umbria, and I would be fairly confident that not even "Pulitzer nominees" Vogt or Clouseau Nadeau have managed to cosy their way into the higher echelons of Umbria politics and judicial circles.

I believe therefore that the statement "they're working on it" is far more likely to be a totally unsupported bit of wishful thinking than any kind of direct knowledge of the Umbrian Attorney General's thoughts or preparations. Personally, I have a feeling (though not a strong one) that the Attorney General will decline to lodge a prosecution appeal. We'll see. But either way, I firmly believe that nobody outside of a very small group of people in Umbria (and that group doesn't include Mignini or Comodi, by the way) has any educated idea as to what will happen by the end of the month.
I think your feeling has a lot to support and recommend it. Unfortunately, there may be a sense that they must lodge one as a show of bravado. But let's hope not. Time will tell, as you say...
 
Yes, that is annoying and my girlfriend said she does the same thing (I am now watching her like a hawk) but look at the tied shoe more closely. The knotted part has been yanked up, pulling the eyes together. Compare with the other shoe where the eyes are apart. The knot does not seem to be doubled so just pulling at one of the loose ends should release it (theoretically still testable if Stefanoni has kept her hands off the damn things). Why would you reach down to yank ineffectually at your laces when you can reach down and just pull the knot undone?


The condition of those shoes is not unlike I find my own sometimes. The knot on the tied shoe looks too loose for a failed attempt to untie. The laces are bunched together as you see them not because the knot was puled to remove the shoe (that could not pull them together while a foot was inside), but rather the shoe was picked up by the laces after it was removed. This evidence tells me that only Meredith removed her shoes.
 
No, it's categorically unsafe to assume that any pro-guilt commentator has any reliable "inside info" that a prosecution appeal is being "worked on". For one thing, any prosecution appeal would come from the office of the Attorney General of Umbria, and I would be fairly confident that not even "Pulitzer nominees" Vogt or Clouseau Nadeau have managed to cosy their way into the higher echelons of Umbria politics and judicial circles.

I believe therefore that the statement "they're working on it" is far more likely to be a totally unsupported bit of wishful thinking than any kind of direct knowledge of the Umbrian Attorney General's thoughts or preparations. Personally, I have a feeling (though not a strong one) that the Attorney General will decline to lodge a prosecution appeal. We'll see. But either way, I firmly believe that nobody outside of a very small group of people in Umbria (and that group doesn't include Mignini or Comodi, by the way) has any educated idea as to what will happen by the end of the month.
First time poster, long time reader. Well done to everyone who called this case correctly. I've enjoyed the debates.

If the AG doesn't appeal, can Maresca launch his own appeal serperate from the state?
 
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When tired or lazy, I often take my right shoe off using the left shoe to push the heel of the right shoe and then untie the left shoe because pushing with an unshod right foot is difficult and hurts a bit.

Although an unpopular point, none of the scenarios accounts for her having .43 g/l of alcohol in her system. Yes, some alcohol can be created in the corpse but nothing has undone the findings of Lalli and other experts that testified.

I think trying to figure out exactly what happened is a bit of misdirection and a waste of time vis-a-vis whether the kids should have been convicted or even if they are totally innocent or not.

The ILE messed up so much of this case we will only know what happened if someone who was there comes clean.

I still think Kokomani looks very suspicious and could easily have been with Rudy and maybe someone else that night. The ILE could easily have missed evidence of someone else being there since they obviously focused on what they knew to be correct.

The truth is that the kids can't be proven to be innocent at this time but they certainly can't be proven to be guilty. The recent behavior by Raffaele as reported is consonant with his inconsistent behavior after the murder. It seems he totally fell apart after the murder and we don't exactly why.

The condition of those shoes is not unlike I find my own sometimes. The knot on the tied shoe looks too loose for a failed attempt to untie. The laces are bunched together as you see them not because the knot was puled to remove the shoe (that could not pull them together while a foot was inside), but rather the shoe was picked up by the laces after it was removed. This evidence tells me that only Meredith removed her shoes.
Which puts us both at odds with Ron Hendry, who has Guede removing the shoes. I don't think Guede attempted to untie the right shoe. He yanked at the knot, hooking his finger under it and jerking it upwards. This I have tried at home and produced precisely the same result as seen in the picture.

I am pretty sure Meredith did not remove her right shoe, because no one uses that method to take off a shoe.

Having used the shoes to support my personal view that things moved very quickly after she returned home (and unfolded exclusively in the bedroom) now I want to turn it round and use my conclusion as a premise to support my view about the shoes. What did she have time to do on reaching her bedroom? We can be sure she took her notebook and Robyn's history book from her bag and tossed them on the bed, indicating her intention to do some reading before going to sleep, and she may have hooked the bag over the back of her chair, as Hendry suggests. She didn't take off her jacket though,mnor do anything else so far as we can tell. Hendry has her going to sit down on the bed and being attacked while trying to phone her mother (this may be the 20.56 call, about which he is probably wrong).

It's reasonable to speculate that what she did next was start removing her shoes. She may only have got as far as untying the laces on the right shoe when attacked, which would explain why the shoes ended up close to each other.

It cannot be said this did not happen and some account is required to expain why the shoes have been treated differently by someone we know was so frantic that he broke the bra in removing it.
 
It's reasonable to speculate that what she did next was start removing her shoes. She may only have got as far as untying the laces on the right shoe when attacked, which would explain why the shoes ended up close to each other.

It cannot be said this did not happen and some account is required to expain why the shoes have been treated differently by someone we know was so frantic that he broke the bra in removing it.

It's the right shoe with the laces tied. As I and your girlfriend have told you, we use the left shoe to take off the right shoe while still tied. I haven't done any experimenting on how the right shoe looks after removal but the removal does push the knot out and then when off it relaxes.

I don't think we will ever be able to say with any level of certainty exactly what happened. That isn't saying that we shouldn't do any speculating.

As I said earlier I find it a bit of a trap coming from the PGP in that it is a bit like trying prove them innocent.

Whether Meredith was attacked before 9:05 or if she had a drink or two and was attacked at 9:35 doesn't really make much of a difference in terms of their innocence or guilt. Yes, if it could be proven that she was dead by 9:05 it would make the computer alibi much stronger.

I remain more interested in the prosecution making a compelling case for how Rudy joined the kids and murdered Meredith and formed a conspiracy of silence that has lasted 4 years. I would like a reasonable explanation as why the kids would clean the house in a way to leave Rudy's evidence behind.

Why would the kids stage a burglary Rudy style, leave his evidence behind, and finger Patrick when they would be worried that their partner in murder would most likely turn on them when caught?
 
Which puts us both at odds with Ron Hendry, who has Guede removing the shoes. I don't think Guede attempted to untie the right shoe. He yanked at the knot, hooking his finger under it and jerking it upwards. This I have tried at home and produced precisely the same result as seen in the picture.

I am pretty sure Meredith did not remove her right shoe, because no one uses that method to take off a shoe.

Having used the shoes to support my personal view that things moved very quickly after she returned home (and unfolded exclusively in the bedroom) now I want to turn it round and use my conclusion as a premise to support my view about the shoes. What did she have time to do on reaching her bedroom? We can be sure she took her notebook and Robyn's history book from her bag and tossed them on the bed, indicating her intention to do some reading before going to sleep, and she may have hooked the bag over the back of her chair, as Hendry suggests. She didn't take off her jacket though,mnor do anything else so far as we can tell. Hendry has her going to sit down on the bed and being attacked while trying to phone her mother (this may be the 20.56 call, about which he is probably wrong).

It's reasonable to speculate that what she did next was start removing her shoes. She may only have got as far as untying the laces on the right shoe when attacked, which would explain why the shoes ended up close to each other.

It cannot be said this did not happen and some account is required to expain why the shoes have been treated differently by someone we know was so frantic that he broke the bra in removing it.


I agree with everything you write here, and that you make a very plausible case for what might really have happened. However, I still believe that this particular evidence (the differing lacing configuration of the trainers) suggests a number of different scenarios. As I wrote before (and as Grinder also alluded to), the different lacing configuration of the two shoes is also actually consistent with Meredith herself removing both shoes - first by kicking or prising off the right shoe (using either her hand or her left foot), then being unable to remove the left shoe in the same way, and being forced to bend down and untie the laces.

But I count the above as the least likely possible scenario. I therefore think that the shoe evidence strongly suggests that it was not Meredith alone (or Meredith at all) who removed her trainers that night. However, even with that suggestion, there are still (in my view) three different scenarios that all make sense:

1) Meredith is in the process of removing her shoes, and has just got to the point of untying the laces in the left trainer (or has just untied and removed her left trainer) when she is confronted and attacked in her own room; then the assailant (again, let's call him "Guede"....) removes either both trainers or just the remaining right laced-up trainer in order to be able to remove Meredith's jeans. He removes the right trainer by pulling it straight off Meredith's foot, leaving the laces tied.

2) Meredith has just untied her laces in her left trainer (and possibly removed the shoe from her foot) when she hears commotion near the front door. She leaves her room - either with her left trainer untied but still on her foot, or with only her right trainer still on - and the confrontation ensues in the hallway or kitchen; the assailant subsequently removes the trainer(s) as in point (1) during the assault.

3) Meredith has not yet attempted to remove either of her trainers when she is confronted and attacked (i.e. both trainers are still laced up). The assailant removes both trainers in order to be able to remove Meredith's jeans, and is able to pull the right trainer off while still laced up, but finds that the left trainer is laced too tightly to be able to remove in that way, and he is therefore forced to unlace it before pulling it from Meredith's foot.


In the first two scenarios above, there is a strong implication that the confrontation and attack must have occurred shortly after Meredith arrived back at the cottage (which I think is the truth in any case, for many other reasons related to other evidence). In the third scenario, there is perhaps less direct implication that the attack happened soon after Meredith's arrival home: if she was still wearing her trainers laced up normally, then it's possible that she had been walking/lounging around with her trainers on for any length of time after getting home. However, I think that other evidence that she was a) tired, and b) intending to read a study book before returning it the following morning, indirectly implies that it's unlikely that Meredith would have kept her trainers on for anything longer than a matter of 10-15 minutes after getting back home.

Therefore, I think the most one can say about this particular piece of evidence is that 1) it tends to suggest that Meredith's two trainers were not both removed by her in a "normal" way; 2) this in turn tends to suggest that someone else - the assailant - was involved in the removal of at least one of the trainers; 3) both of these things (coupled with other evidence) tend to indicate that Meredith became involved in a confrontation and attack shortly after she arrived home just after 9pm.

I think the different lacing configurations of the trainers is interesting and relevant evidence in trying to assess what might really have happened (although I'd suggest that it has next to no relevance in a strictly legal context). I think that this evidence tends to support and bolster the opinion that Meredith was confronted and attacked very soon after arriving home, but I don't think it can tell us much more than that regarding the more detailed dynamic or location of the confrontation.
 
It's the right shoe with the laces tied. As I and your girlfriend have told you, we use the left shoe to take off the right shoe while still tied. I haven't done any experimenting on how the right shoe looks after removal but the removal does push the knot out and then when off it relaxes.

I don't think we will ever be able to say with any level of certainty exactly what happened. That isn't saying that we shouldn't do any speculating.

As I said earlier I find it a bit of a trap coming from the PGP in that it is a bit like trying prove them innocent.

Whether Meredith was attacked before 9:05 or if she had a drink or two and was attacked at 9:35 doesn't really make much of a difference in terms of their innocence or guilt. Yes, if it could be proven that she was dead by 9:05 it would make the computer alibi much stronger.

I remain more interested in the prosecution making a compelling case for how Rudy joined the kids and murdered Meredith and formed a conspiracy of silence that has lasted 4 years. I would like a reasonable explanation as why the kids would clean the house in a way to leave Rudy's evidence behind.

Why would the kids stage a burglary Rudy style, leave his evidence behind, and finger Patrick when they would be worried that their partner in murder would most likely turn on them when caught?
All duly noted and absorbed. And while we're setting out what we would like, I would like:
1 a detailed description of the clean up, describing the methods employed, the equipment used, the clothing worn, the rooms involved, the disposal of clothing and equipment and the timing
2 a detailed description, like Ron Hendry's, of the three-handed version of the killing which would leave the room looking like it did, more or less and allowing for cleaning up (provided the cleaning up is properly described and not swept out of consideration with a flourish as if irrelevant.

Take that mop. It was taken back to Raffaele's place. I only recently understood the guilter theory about that: it was so as to clean it with the bleach we know Amanda bought early in the morning on 02/11/2007 from Mr Q at Cardo. Fine. So, was it tested and found to be saturated with bleach? What about the bucket which is used with the mop oftentimes? How did the tests for that come out - any blood, hair etc? Why didn't they clean it at the apartment, where there was some bleach (I believe)? Why walk the thing around town saying - 'Hey! We've just been involved in a clean up?'

It may be out there somewhere but, if so, I have yet to come across the blueprint for the crime scene clean. I don't even mind if it doesn't explain how they left Rudy's stuff there. I just want an approximate, but detailed, description.
 
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