The Genesis Seal

I will get around to these matters as soon as possible.

How about now?

The posts you have are so far just masturbation with numbers.

Let's see...

1. The name is one that I have coined for this phenomenon.

What name was in coined under then?

You stated you discovered this but now you say it's famous. There were hundreds of numerological theories in the middle ages, perhaps thousands. It was a popular pastime of those who could read. So.. either you discovered something new, in which case it could not have influenced history.. or you have just copied a medieval or ancient numerological theory.

Note that numerological theories belong to the middle ages in the same way as belief in fairies and unicorns. Interesting (fascinating in fact) to historians but hardly world shaking now.

Let's hear this... should be amusing at any rate.
 
This is an assertion that I have not previously addressed as I should have done, though it has been made quite a number of times. In point of fact, I did not 'try' all that many arrangements. When I saw that the Hebrew form of Genesis 1:1 divides up neatly into four blocks of seven letters each, I tried two alternative arrangements. One was a 7x4 matrix, and the other an empty square defined by a perimeter constructed from those four blocks of text. And that's it! The idea that I tried lots of different arrangements is not only a false assumption, it is also unrealistic. There just aren't that many ways to re-arrange the given text that would respect the distinctive positions of word-breaks. Or, at least, I didn't have the imagination to recognise any more than those two.


Fair enough. But arrangements of the source text in the grid are just one (or a few) of a vast number of dimensions in what I refer to as possibilities. And that wasn't even what I was referring to as "possibilities" in the part you quoted (though I did mention it separately later in the post). I'm talking about all the ways you looked for meaningful patterns, or could have looked if a few tempting characters had happened to suggest it to you. For instance, if the characters for "elohim" had happened to appear each separated by a knight's move from the last, would you have then searched the possible knight's tours (there are thirteen trillion of them in an 8x8 grid) for more hits? You found partial distributions of some characters on the grid, that formed the approximate shapes of other characters. How many such shapes did you search for and not find? Did you look for significant four-letter squares, five-letter crosses, approximate maps of parts of the Hebrew ancestral homelands, rainbows, towers, fish? How many different ways could you have rearranged the grid by removing one character and shifting the remaining ones, and how many other equally simple ways of modifying the grid are there, from which to search for one that cryptically relates to a line of scripture? How many other ways could you have turned characters into numbers, then looked for patterns and meanings in those numbers?

You tell me you've been working on this for years; what could you have been spending that time on, if not searching through ever more possibilities? Every new element, technique, association, reference, and manipulation you brought in or considered bringing or would have brought in if you could look ahead to interesting results from doing so (which the human brain is very good at doing) makes the expected likelihood of spurious but significant-looking hits so much greater, not less, because it expands the vast space of possibilities into yet another dimension. You have gone to great effort to show a great variety of different ways to decode meaning from the seal, but that variety works against your hypothesis not in favor of it.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Kingfisher2926 said:
Of course I accept that for the more discerning posters on this thread some suitable testing would be needed before accepting my hypothesis. In fact, by using the word hypothesis, I am placing myself in the way of critical thought. But any sane person must agree that much of the dross that has been aimed at me falls well short of the scientific definition of 'critical'.
I really wish people would actually participate in science a bit before telling us how science works. I mean, have you ever been to a scientific conference? There are stories of conferences that broke out into fistfights. I've seen flame wars that would get people banned on this forum taking place in respectable journals--and the journals encouraging it! (Lively debate sells copies.) Look into the Bone Wars sometime to see proof that science isn't all academics sitting around calmly and dispasionately discussing nebulous ideas.

In science, if you act like an idiot you'll be called an idiot. If your methodology falls short, you'll be called everything from pseudoscientific to a fraud. Science isn't for the thin-skinned, and nothing thus far in this thread has been outside the normal operating procedures of scientific debate.

I can cite the mediaeval Catholic Church who would have been horrified that the Seal might be taken seriously, though not for scientific reasons.
I don't believe you. If you could cite specific documents to that effect, you would have already--when I repeatedly advised you to focus on the historic angle. Saying you CAN cite something is meaningless. You have to actually cite it.
 
I don't believe you. If you could cite specific documents to that effect, you would have already--when I repeatedly advised you to focus on the historic angle. Saying you CAN cite something is meaningless. You have to actually cite it.

Cite them, Kingfisher.
 
RobDegraves said:
What name was in coined under then?
Prabably 'That ill-begotten talisman of Satan', if the Church had anything to do with it.

You stated you discovered this but now you say it's famous. There were hundreds of numerological theories in the middle ages, perhaps thousands. It was a popular pastime of those who could read. So.. either you discovered something new, in which case it could not have influenced history.. or you have just copied a medieval or ancient numerological theory.

Note that numerological theories belong to the middle ages in the same way as belief in fairies and unicorns. Interesting (fascinating in fact) to historians but hardly world shaking now.

Let's hear this... should be amusing at any rate.

I hope I implied that mine is a re-discovery of something I believe has been known to others in the past.
My own interest in numerology is not for its mystical properties (which probably have no basis anyway) but as part of the evidence that the Genesis Seal looks as though it was designed with it in mind. Yes, I know and agree that numerology was rife in the middle ages. In itself, that is an indicator of the intense interest in Hebrew sources at that time, and an explanation for why this thing could have been noticed time and time again.
 
I hope I implied that mine is a re-discovery of something I believe has been known to others in the past.

What you believe has no bearing on the matter. You will need to present some proof. Start by citing those sources that you referred to earlier.
 
MRC_Hans has said: I have not proved you wrong (your thesis is not falsifiable), but I have clearly proved that there is nothing out of the ordinary in your 'genesis seal. But his random 8x8 matrix (and its kin) is at least a fair attempt demonstrate the The Genesis Seal is not out of the ordinary. I can accept Hans' method as propably being mor realistic than my ongoing examination of Torah-related control sets.

However, my process is not 'horribly subjective and wish fulfilling', as you put it. Hans' proposed control matrix might reveal a good few valid emergent words, but they are not validated by being organised in related sets in the same concise way that is demonstrated by the Genesis Seal. All attempts at side-stepping this vital fact are being just as selective as in Confirmation Bias.


As I said, you are not and never will be competent to evaluate your own work.

You really don't have a clue.
 
Myriad said:
For instance, if the characters for "elohim" had happened to appear each separated by a knight's move from the last, would you have then searched the possible knight's tours (there are thirteen trillion of them in an 8x8 grid) for more hits? You found partial distributions of some characters on the grid, that formed the approximate shapes of other characters. How many such shapes did you search for and not find? Did you look for significant four-letter squares, five-letter crosses, approximate maps of parts of the Hebrew ancestral homelands, rainbows, towers, fish? How many different ways could you have rearranged the grid by removing one character and shifting the remaining ones, and how many other equally simple ways of modifying the grid are there, from which to search for one that cryptically relates to a line of scripture? How many other ways could you have turned characters into numbers, then looked for patterns and meanings in those numbers?

You tell me you've been working on this for years; what could you have been spending that time on, if not searching through ever more possibilities? Every new element, technique, association, reference, and manipulation you brought in or considered bringing or would have brought in if you could look ahead to interesting results from doing so (which the human brain is very good at doing) makes the expected likelihood of spurious but significant-looking hits so much greater, not less, because it expands the vast space of possibilities into yet another dimension. You have gone to great effort to show a great variety of different ways to decode meaning from the seal, but that variety works against your hypothesis not in favor of it.

There are a lot of points for me to address here. Oddly enough, I could show you a rather remarkable fish in the G3/G4 squares, and I have found a perticularly significant 4x4 zone that obeys the Principle of Reserved Locations between the G1 and G2 squares. But, I have enough on my plate just now, to try to keep up with everyone else's demands.

The time I have spent on this is elapsed time, not full-time working time. I have recantly explained how I found just two alternative ways to re-organise the text of Genesis 1:1, while honouring the distinctive superficial structure of that verse. Once I had made that discovery I observed enough immediately to peek my interest. However, many of the hundreds of other recognisable features came to me slowly in odd, unguarded moments. If I understand correctly, the only new techniques I introduced at any stage were:
  1. The migration of the sole letter ayin to transform the G1 square into G2.
  2. Reversing the text from a converging spiral into an expanding spiral and, possibly
  3. Looking at the same letters in their alternative guise as single digit, qatan
  4. values.

Elsewhere, I have offered my rationale for the first two. The third is not entirely new, but a new use of an age-old system that one might expect a clever enough Hebrew scribe to introduce.
 
Yes, I know and agree that numerology was rife in the middle ages. In itself, that is an indicator of the intense interest in Hebrew sources at that time, and an explanation for why this thing could have been noticed time and time again.

Again nothing but evasion and BS.


What historical event, knowledge or whatever are you referring to specifically?

Either you don't know or you are deliberately wasting everyone's time.

The only thing you seem to enjoy doing is going on and on and on about your endless fiddling with letters and patterns. I know you say you spent years on it and that is really sad, but do we have to spend years hearing about it before you produce any kind of evidence that you are not just nuts?
 
Dinwar said:
I really wish people would actually participate in science a bit before telling us how science works. I mean, have you ever been to a scientific conference? There are stories of conferences that broke out into fistfights. I've seen flame wars that would get people banned on this forum taking place in respectable journals--and the journals encouraging it! (Lively debate sells copies.) Look into the Bone Wars sometime to see proof that science isn't all academics sitting around calmly and dispasionately discussing nebulous ideas.

In science, if you act like an idiot you'll be called an idiot. If your methodology falls short, you'll be called everything from pseudoscientific to a fraud. Science isn't for the thin-skinned, and nothing thus far in this thread has been outside the normal operating procedures of scientific debate.
I seem to remember that Richard Feynman attracted that sort of label when, at a prestigious conference, he first introduced his cute little diagrams to explain quantum interaction of multiple particles.
 
What you believe has no bearing on the matter. You will need to present some proof. Start by citing those sources that you referred to earlier.
When my daughter was five years old, she had more patience than this even on Christmas Eve.
 
I seem to remember that Richard Feynman attracted that sort of label when, at a prestigious conference, he first introduced his cute little diagrams to explain quantum interaction of multiple particles.

You are comparing yourself to a genius like Feynman!!!! I don't believe it. If he was alive and a member here he would tell you where you are going wrong in one post. Please cite these sources of yours. Put up or shut up. Last time of asking for me, if you don't cite them then I'm out and you can carry on trolling.
 
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When my daughter was five years old, she had more patience than this even on Christmas Eve.

You really need to go look at the ET Corn Gods site. Then understand how much time people spent patiently trying to explain how ridiculous his idea was. Yours is just as ridiculous. Without evidence that anyone from history ever utilized this stuff, any claim that they did us baseless nonsense. Seriously.
 
Again nothing but evasion and BS.


What historical event, knowledge or whatever are you referring to specifically?

Either you don't know or you are deliberately wasting everyone's time.

The only thing you seem to enjoy doing is going on and on and on about your endless fiddling with letters and patterns. I know you say you spent years on it and that is really sad, but do we have to spend years hearing about it before you produce any kind of evidence that you are not just nuts?
I have been labouring under the illusion that the JREF forum was: A place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way.Even if a hundred posters lose interest, I can hope that the may be others who are interested. I shall continue to use this thread as a 'shop window' for an important issue; anyone who prefers can pass by and shop next door.
 
KF,
A problem for you, I think, is when you finally have all these little words and phrases (that you found in the coded seal) then what?

You have a bunch of text. So what? You now have, to pinch a phrase, all your work ahead of you.

Why does it say what it says?
How do you know your interpretation is correct?
If it only repeats what the parent text said, then what has been gained? You might say, verification; but of what? A divine author, or a savant scribe?
How do you know it stops there, maybe there's a seal within the seal?

Do you take the manufactured fact of this new text and seek legitimacy in history? Does it not speak for itself? Does it require more than decoding?



Just some thoughts before I head to bed.
 
I have been labouring under the illusion that the JREF forum was: A place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way.Even if a hundred posters lose interest, I can hope that the may be others who are interested. I shall continue to use this thread as a 'shop window' for an important issue; anyone who prefers can pass by and shop next door.

Look up the meaning of the word 'discuss'. Making vague references to sources and refusing to cite them and not taking any criticism on board and repeating yourself is not discussing. I suggest that you take this to the David Icke site. There are woos over there who will believe anything.
 

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