Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

[Oystein]

Oystein: Ergh... you are right, it is not very clear from the Bentham paper. If we can't be sure in this respect (that four chips (a) to (d)) closely studied by SEM are the same as were lately burned in DSC machine), this could be a problem.
Truthers can always say (after any thorough analyses): you perhaps proved that chips (a) to (d) were particles of your beloved red paint, but chips burned in DSC were different and for sure they were evil nanothemite!

(I will think about this matter later, now I am going to be rather busy.)

But if the DSC chips are not the same material as a-d, then we have no data at all on them except the DSC results. The DSC-results alone show A) a great variation of results and B) that something other than thermite must have reacted (under air, no less). Since we have no other characterization of the DCS chips, and since their energy density varies so wildly, we should even doubt that these four chips are the same material among themselves.

In short: The entire DSC data is totally useless for every purpose.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I don't think so, Oystein (my duties must wait for the moment).

If selected chips will show similar DSC curves under air as burned Bentham chips, this should be quite convincing. I would'nt consider here so much the released heat per gram of sample (which can greatly vary e.g. because of attached gray layers), but just the positions of exothermal peaks (somewhere between 410 and 440 degrees C). Once again, in slightly different manner: For me, there is no way that some red-gray chips could be Laclede paint and some others from Bentham paper (with similar DSC behavior under air) could be nanothetmite.

But, maybe I am wrong and I will consider it again tommorow, now I really must leave.

 

[chrismohr]

Oystein: Ergh... you are right, it is not very clear from the Bentham paper. If we can't be sure in this respect (that four chips (a) to (d)) closely studied by SEM are the same as were lately burned in DSC machine), this could be a problem.
Truthers can always say (after any thorough analyses): you perhaps proved that chips (a) to (d) were particles of your beloved red paint, but chips burned in DSC were different and for sure they were evil nanothemite!

(I will think about this matter later, now I am going to be rather busy.)

I have already confronted Kevin Ryan on this matter. I told him that if he refuses to ID the red-gray chips when invited, he'll be in no position to claim we didn't find the thermitic chips. He refused anyway. I told him that if he makes a "wrong chips" claim publicly I will be sure everyone knows he had a chance to do the ID'ing.

 

[Oystein]

I don't think so, Oystein (my duties must wait for the moment).

If selected chips will show similar DSC curves under air as burned Bentham chips, this should be quite convincing. I would'nt consider here so much the released heat per gram of sample (which can greatly vary e.g. because of attached gray layers), but just the positions of exothermal peaks (somewhere between 410 and 440 degrees C). Once again, in slightly different manner: For me, there is no way that some red-gray chips could be Laclede paint and some others from Bentham paper (with similar DSC behavior under air) could be nanothetmite.

But, maybe I am wrong and I will consider it again tommorow, now I really must leave.

If the curves match, that would be nice to have, but it's unnecessary. If they don't match, it means nothing.

I am thinking, among other things, about cost here.


Also, if I understand this correctly, DSC output depends much on specifics of how you do it - heating rate, for example. They habe not specified any heating rate in the paper. Maybe the info is out somewhere else (maybe Farrer talked about it somewhere), but that would then be apokryphal.
In short, I'd expect to see results that differ from Figure 19, and yet that would not touch our case in any way. So why bother?

 

[moorea34]

I think Lefty gave the best solution breaking a large chip.

With the first part, you determine the composition and origin

With the second you realize DSC and show that the results are consistant (value (kJ/g) and position of peak) with those obtain by the truthers.

If everything match, end of game....

 

[Oystein]

I think Lefty gave the best solution breaking a large chip.

With the first part, you determine the composition and origin

With the second you realize DSC and show that the results are consistant (value (kJ/g) and position of peak) with those obtain by the truthers.

If everything match, end of game....

And if not? End of game still, if all the other data matches, because if DSC matches, there are several possible explanations, most of them no problem for us.

So why bother? It's end game either way.

 

[jaydeehess]

This is a brief interruption of Oystein's posts to say I got no actual checks and didn't check mail yesterday. I'll report by tomorrow how we are doing but based on commitments I've received, I am guessing we will be within $100 of our goal by the end of the week. Let's see where we are by Saturday. Thanks again everyone.

cheque sent snail mail today. Give it 10 days to cross the border and head out west.
Sorry about the delay

 

[LSSBB]

This is a brief interruption of Oystein's posts to say I got no actual checks and didn't check mail yesterday. I'll report by tomorrow how we are doing but based on commitments I've received, I am guessing we will be within $100 of our goal by the end of the week. Let's see where we are by Saturday. Thanks again everyone.

My donation is coming via Carlitos' PayPal account

 

[Oystein]

And if not? End of game still, if all the other data matches, because if DSC matches doesn't match, there are several possible explanations, most of them no problem for us.

So why bother? It's end game either way.

Oops, ftfm.


(Chris, you weren't interrupting me after all, I edited my post; I had at first said that would post a series of posts to show all the data we have an all chips, in order to show we have several disjoint individual chips or groups of chips which we can't group together because the data presented by Harrit e.al. is either insufficient, or clearly shows the chips are different from each other.
Then I saw that this would have been massively tl;dr, and I'll write that up in a different fashion somewhere.)

 

[chrismohr]

Good Oystein,
An analysis like this may be of value to Jim Millette. He is receiving input from all sources, as well as carefully studying the Bentham paper, so if you put your analysis out and send to me I will pass it along as raw data for him to look at.

 

[chrismohr]

Second Update on Thermite Test funding

Hi all,

As of today I have also received:
$25 from the Pacific Northwest
$25 from one of the Dakotas
$200 from California

That puts us around $780, with more promised. I think we'll land very close and will let you know as more comes in.

It's worth mentioning that so far it looks like around $160 is coming from "Real Truthers" who deserve kudos because they are making their contribution to this test knowing that it is not approved of by Kevin Ryan. To their credit, they want an independent analysis of the WTC dust and I believe they will get it!

 

[plague311]

Hi all,

As of today I have also received:
$25 from the Pacific Northwest
$25 from one of the Dakotas
$200 from California

That puts us around $780, with more promised. I think we'll land very close and will let you know as more comes in.

It's worth mentioning that so far it looks like around $160 is coming from "Real Truthers" who deserve kudos because they are making their contribution to this test knowing that it is not approved of by Kevin Ryan. To their credit, they want an independent analysis of the WTC dust and I believe they will get it!

/cheers to that

 

[chrismohr]

Here's a "Real Truther" for you: he just submitted the following for posting on LetsRoll.com and 911blogger:

Replication of the Bentham Thermite study is in the works (finally)

Replication of experiments is fundamental to the scientific method.

We Truthers have had about 3 years to do a replication study of the 2009 Bentham Open Chemistry and Physics Journal paper on "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" by Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen.

We should not criticize Chris Mohr for taking the initiative, even though he has made videos supporting the official story of 9/11. Chris has found a reasonably neutral and objective scientist to replicate the study on the WTC dust, James R. Millette, Ph.D. of MVA Scientific Consultants.

If we are confident the dust contains thermitic material, we should support this effort. We should look at the methodology of the study, and give Dr. Millette the same consideration we ask in return. I for one applaud this effort, and am sending a donation for the expenses...

 

[Ivan Kminek]

OK, Chris, my compliments to the truthers who contribute (and announce the incoming research in truthers' sites).

Morea, Lefty's proposal to break some selected chips seems to be ideal for our purpose, since (among others) it would simultaneously prepare fresh surfaces for XEDS measurements. And we already now that this is crucial for the precise determination of the elements in the chips. But, it's up to Jim Millette. If Bentham chips burned in DSC machine were different from chips (a) to (d), it is a complication. Jim can anyway prove that Bentham chips (a) to (d) were particles of Laclede paint, which is our main goal.

Oystein, you wrote "they have not specified any heating rate in the paper," but it is written in Bentham paper (p. 10): "Some samples were also tested in a differential scanning calorimeter (Netzsch DSC 404C) to measure heat flow into or out of the red/gray chips.The DSC tests were conducted with a linear heating rate of 10 °C per minute up to a temperature of 700 °C. During heating, the samples were contained in alumina pans and air was allowed to flow at 55 milliliters per minute during the heating," etc.
Btw, the expression "some samples" leads me to the strong suspicion that those heated chips were really different from chips (a) to (d).

 

[cjnewson88]

This is a brief interruption of Oystein's posts to say I got no actual checks and didn't check mail yesterday. I'll report by tomorrow how we are doing but based on commitments I've received, I am guessing we will be within $100 of our goal by the end of the week. Let's see where we are by Saturday. Thanks again everyone.

Nice one Chris, if my kiwi dollar wasn't so **** against the US I'd try a little harder to paypal someone with 20 bucks from my student allowance, but it would only end up being like $13 or something, hardly worth the effort (unless it's really needed )

 

[leftysergeant]

Oystein, you wrote "they have not specified any heating rate in the paper," but it is written in Bentham paper (p. 10): "Some samples were also tested in a differential scanning calorimeter (Netzsch DSC 404C) to measure heat flow into or out of the red/gray chips.The DSC tests were conducted with a linear heating rate of 10 °C per minute up to a temperature of 700 °C. During heating, the samples were contained in alumina pans and air was allowed to flow at 55 milliliters per minute during the heating," etc.

This seems kind of a flakey way to test for thermite, in that thermite produces alumina as an end product.

I would suggest thsat the environment be kept free of alumina so that noone can claim that the stuff was there at the end.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Deleted...

 

[chrismohr]

A comment of interest from an old Kevin Ryan email to me he sent last spring:

- The red-gray chips tested do not withstand 650 C, do not have Zinc, and don't dissolve in an organic solvent (but known paint chips do). Other analyses, not yet published, also indicate that the red chips are not paint. I have WTC paint samples and can tell you that, in addition to these facts, the paint looks nothing like the red-gray chips.

 

[Oystein]

A comment of interest from an old Kevin Ryan email to me he sent last spring:

- The red-gray chips tested do not withstand 650 C, do not have Zinc, and don't dissolve in an organic solvent (but known paint chips do). Other analyses, not yet published, also indicate that the red chips are not paint. I have WTC paint samples and can tell you that, in addition to these facts, the paint looks nothing like the red-gray chips.

The old problem; There are several different kinds of red-gray chips (representing, most likely, different formulations/brands of red primer), and at least two kinds of primer paint used on twin tower steel (and more on WTC7 steel etc).
Kevin is making statements about unidentified specimen:

• It is unknown which red-gray chips did not withstand 650°C or did not contain Zinc
• It is unknown which paint he compared them to

So these statements are worthless.

 

[chrismohr]

Dust Testing: reaching our goal now

Another $25 came in from New York today. And more is coming in soon, so I'm pretty sure that we're at or a bit above our goal with what's still going through the mail. By next week I will know for sure.