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Rick Santorum is an idiot, a bigot, and morally inconsistent...

Lowpro said:
Didn't you hear that the Obama administration rejected the FDA's plan to provide Plan B over the counter?

But I guess that's not a contraceptive...
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That was only for minors. The drug is available for women 18 and over.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That was only for minors. The drug is available for women 18 and over.
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Ah, I'm sure the decision was made in the light of stringent scientific data to protect those minors /sarcasm

The opposition was unwarranted, and it was Obama's Administration that made it.
 
Lowpro said:
Ah, I'm sure the decision was made in the light of stringent scientific data to protect those minors /sarcasm

The opposition was unwarranted, and it was Obama's Administration that made it.
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Yes, and I disapprove of Obama's decision, but it's not remotely equivalent to Santorum's position on contraceptives.

Again, nothing about Obama's decision on the morning after pill is relevant to Santorum's position on contraceptives and recreational sex.
 
Lowpro said:
Agreed but my context was more to be wry with Johnny Karate (who actually deleted the post's content that I was referring to)
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I don't see any relevance. JK's observation about mainstream views on contraceptives vs. Santorum's views are spot on.

If you're attempting to make a tu quoque fallacy (saying Obama's position is also outside the mainstream) you've failed.


Look Santorum's jaded but what's worse is his platform will do little for those wishes anyways. Even if he did get elected these decisions would be gridlocked and he'd fail so hard he'd walk out worse than W if he doesn't get impeached first. At the moment my only worry is that Obama will actually lose the presidential election (a fear that may be warranted, I don't know...I think he's shot himself in the foot once or twice unless he's trying to gain new favor from somewhere that's not where I am in the political scheme)
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Oh, Santorum stands no chance of even getting the GOP nomination.

But that's not relevant to discussion of his positions on these issues (or the thesis given in the thread title). He might win or lose, he might be able or unable to enact any of his bizarre social conservative agenda, and none of those things changes whether or not he is "an idiot, a bigot, and morally inconsistent", or as I prefer to say, someone whose views are far outside those of mainstream American society. (If anything, there is causality going the other direction: that his views are so fringey is a reason he won't get nominated, elected or be effective in enacting his agenda.)
 
Lowpro said:
Ah, I'm sure the decision was made in the light of stringent scientific data to protect those minors /sarcasm

The opposition was unwarranted, and it was Obama's Administration that made it.
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It doesn't surprise me that a man with two young daughters would believe a parent should know about their choice to take said form of birth control. My own father, for example, would have been shocked to find out teens could go to Planned Parenthood without parental consent. Parental rights is a separate issue from the pro-choice decision per se.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I don't see any relevance. JK's observation about mainstream views on contraceptives vs. Santorum's views are spot on.

If you're attempting to make a tu quoque fallacy (saying Obama's position is also outside the mainstream) you've failed.



Oh, Santorum stands no chance of even getting the GOP nomination.

But that's not relevant to discussion of his positions on these issues (or the thesis given in the thread title). He might win or lose, he might be able or unable to enact any of his bizarre social conservative agenda, and none of those things changes whether or not he is "an idiot, a bigot, and morally inconsistent", or as I prefer to say, someone whose views are far outside those of mainstream American society. (If anything, there is causality going the other direction: that his views are so fringey is a reason he won't get nominated, elected or be effective in enacting his agenda.)
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I guess you don't know what "wry" means. Calm down
 
Convicted Lobbyist Is Santorum's S.C. Aide

Senator Rick Santorum's campaign Saturday defended the candidate's reliance in South Carolina on a former lobbyist convicted of bribing a Senate staffer.

The lobbyist, James Hirni, figured in the Jack Abramoff scandals, and his campaign presence may resonate with critics' attacks on Santorum as a creature of Capitol Hill. Hirni pled guilty in 2008 on charges that included giving Senate staffers World Series and strip club tickets in exchange for legislative action. He reportedly stayed out of prison by promising to work as an undercover informant for authorities. The Daily Beast described him as "The GOP's Donnie Brasco."
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Lowpro said:
I guess you don't know what "wry" means.
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I do understand what wry means, thank you.

Your argumentation doesn't seem wry at all. It seems like you're genuinely continuing to offer criticism of Obama's decision on making Plan B require a prescription for minors in the context of my criticism of Santorum's position on contraception. There's no logical relevance.


Calm down
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I'm quite calm, thank you. In fact, I've been running a lot lately and my blood pressure is quite low. But please, let's not discuss me anymore.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I do understand what wry means, thank you.

Your argumentation doesn't seem wry at all. It seems like you're genuinely continuing to offer criticism of Obama's decision on making Plan B require a prescription for minors in the context of my criticism of Santorum's position on contraception. There's no logical relevance.



I'm quite calm, thank you. In fact, I've been running a lot lately and my blood pressure is quite low. But please, let's not discuss me anymore.
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No I had made a wry response to JK, YOU got uppity on it because you thought that I was sincerely trying to conflate the Obama Administration's choice to decline the FDA request to make Plan B over-the-counter (for minors, as Skeptic Ginger made more accurate for me) with Santorum's just straight up hate for contraception, funsies sex, etc etc of which I have not done AT ALL other than the post that I qualified as being a wry post of humor to have a fun poke at JK, which he even DELETED so it's actually quite irrelevant now. Of course there's no logical relevance, YOU'RE the only one here who's run off with the (wrong) association.

Oh, I'm also about three weeks into quitting smoking cold turkey, so the slightest thing just pisses me the hell off, including this.
 
RandFan said:
Yeah. I was not in happy mood when I posted it. :) No way in hell I would apologize though.
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If you don't want to get even more disgusted by this guy, I suggest you not read the details on the Daily Kos link about the Saipan forced abortion/sweatshop connection to Santorum. Since Abramoff's name came up, I thought I'd look into that and my recollection was correct. Santorum was involved along with Tom DeLay and more than a few more supposedly Jesus loving Republicans.

Santorum may be too nice a name for that guy...
According to Open Secrets, Satorum's FightPAC recieved $5,000 just before the sweatshop owner and his employees went to his fundraiser and another $5,000 just after Abramoff won a Santorum supported legislative victory for his sweatshop dependent clients. Both payments to his PAC were from John Pangelinan, a long-time Tan Family employee.

The crimes and human rights abuses of these sweatshop owners and the system of labor abuse they created in the Commonwealth of the Norther Marianas Islands--a US Territory in the Western Pacific--are epic and well documented.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
If you don't want to get even more disgusted by this guy, I suggest you not read the details on the Daily Kos link about the Saipan forced abortion/sweatshop connection to Santorum. Since Abramoff's name came up, I thought I'd look into that and my recollection was correct. Santorum was involved along with Tom DeLay and more than a few more supposedly Jesus loving Republicans.

Santorum may be too nice a name for that guy...
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If true it disgusts me to no end. Exploiting and furthering human suffering is a fairly immoral thing to do. What a smug self righteous bastard.
 
RandFan said:
If true it disgusts me to no end. Exploiting and furthering human suffering is a fairly immoral thing to do. What a smug self righteous bastard.
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If true?

Were you still on the dark side when Al Franken was campaigning for the rights of the exploited Chinese women who were locked up on Saipan in these sweat shops after being lured there with promises of jobs in America? It's one of the things that motivated Franken to run for office. People know (barely) about Abramoff going to prison for bribery schemes involving casinos, but anyone paying attention at the time is all too familiar with the Saipan scandal.

From the Daily Kos in 2006:

Forced Abortions & Sweatshops: A Look at Jack Abramoff’s Ties to the South Pacific Island of Saipan & How Tom DeLay Became An Advocate for Sweatshop Factory Owners

Jack Abramoff explains how the GOP protected sweatshops


J. Jill, Ann Taylor, Liz Claiborne: Made By Slaves, Backed by Congress
The workers, mostly Chinese women, some of whose stories are told in the Ms. Magazine article, sew clothing for J. Jill, Elie Tahari, Ann Taylor, Liz Claiborne, The Gap, and Ralph Lauren, among others. They pay so much money to obtain work and for shelter and food, that they can labor for a decade and still not pay it back. They serve, therefore, as indentured servants, sharing rooms and beds, lacking health care, and working extra unpaid hours for the reward of being permitted to also work paid overtime. Pregnancy is unacceptable, costs of it not covered, and amateur abortion encouraged.
The island of Saipan does great business in prostitution for Asian businessmen and American soldiers. Approximately 90 percent of the prostitutes, according to Ms., are former Chinese garment workers. Others had been recruited for jobs like waitressing but were forced into prostitution instead.

Over the past decade, 29 bills in Congress have sought to apply a minimum wage standard and/or immigration law to the Mariana Islands or to deny use of "Made in USA" to items produced there. Every one of these bills has failed. Some have won support in the Senate but been blocked by the House Resources Committee. Others have won the support of a majority of House Members but still been killed in that same committee.

Guess who earned $11 million in fees from the Marianas government and garment manufacturers? A fellow by the name of Jack Abramoff. The Ms. Magazine article details his extensive lobbying of the Republican leadership in the House, and in particular of Tom Delay.
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Robert Prey said:
I see nothing racist there.
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Are you one of those who attempt to re-define racism such that it doesn't exist? (On one of the Ron Paul threads, someone tried to re-define racism such that a person is only racist if he says explicitly, "I hate blacks".)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If true?http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/...Claiborne:-Made-By-Slaves,-Backed-by-Congress
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I've been burned too many times. I try not to accept 100% any story at face value. i know most of the elements are true. I don't know to what extent Santorum's involvement was. Again, not sure how much clearer I can paint the picture, I despise the man (see thread title). Now, that's not to say there isn't sufficient information for me to form an opinion. There likely is and I will likely accept the story. My caveat exists because for me it's the right thing to do. Doesn't mean I'm always as rigorous but given that I was the one who came up with the thread title I think it particularly important here. I'd very much like to be taken seriously. My disgust of the man arises from his bigotry, stupidity and moral inconsistency. I'm not attacking him because of his politics or because of that stupid grin or his smug demeanor. So I want to be certain. I'll get up to speed. But that's that. I won't apologize.

But I thank you for the additional info. I will gladly read anything you got on this particularly odious excuse for a human being.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Are you one of those who attempt to re-define racism such that it doesn't exist? (On one of the Ron Paul threads, someone tried to re-define racism such that a person is only racist if he says explicitly, "I hate blacks".)
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The allegation is that RS is racist. A url cite was given. There is nothing racist there. Please give a direct quote from RS to prove your point.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Are you one of those who attempt to re-define racism such that it doesn't exist? (On one of the Ron Paul threads, someone tried to re-define racism such that a person is only racist if he says explicitly, "I hate blacks".)
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He's either a troll or hopelessly clueless. Checkthis thread about JFK. If you can stomach. He's all about saying things against all evidence and never engaging about any of it.
 
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