Question regarding relativity and "infinite" speed - WTF?!

There is NOTHING wrong with the way it is taught in the textbooks. What is wrong is in intolerance of any variation from the way in which you may have been taught something. That is when something becomes dogma. That intolerance does indeed have my complete comtempt and I have absolutely no interest in indulging it. So I refuse to discuss criticisms of that sort. I will explain things the way that I decide is best and if you don't like you can lump it. What matters in science are the prediction of measurable results. That is where the science is and unless criticisms are on that basis, it is just hot air. That is why the only real issue in the discussion with Maximus that had any substance was when he declared that I was wrong and said

So I replied
You give me a time period and a distance and I will tell you how fast you need to go and what energy it will take.

He was wrong

True. I was wrong on that particular point. But in my defense I had to come here to the JREF Forum to learn why I was wrong, as you didn't seem interested in trying to actually explain anything (your knee-jerk reaction to "dogma" provides a glimpse of this). Fortunate for all involved that there are people here who don't mind explaining things in an understandable way.

and that is the end of the matter. The rest is nothing but hot air. I am just not interested.

You aren't interested in trying to clarify multiple confusing/misleading statements that you've made? Even when that criticism is directed to you from your peers? Okay...

Incidentally, I no longer have any doubts that you know your subject matter, Mitch. I just think you do a poor job of explaining it, and if you are a teacher then that's something you should really work on. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
I don't see much fuss, but the point, as I already mentioned, is that Mitch's simplified explanations are still shrouded in complex language, so instead if helping the peasants (no arrogance really intended), he may confuse them, and at the same time, more knowledgeable people will expect a precise explanation, and find faults with the simplification.

Yes, this sums up my view as well. I suppose what put me off about the manner in which Mitch was approaching this was twofold:

1. I honestly had never seen the topic approached in the manner in which he did it (the "non-dogmatic" version, if you will). And in interacting with him his desire to constantly invoke a dislike of the "dogma" without ever explaining why it was supposedly bad/improper/unlikeable to him didn't do him any favors with me.

2. Since Mitch says he teaches these topics online, and also because he posts about them on public message boards where people who know no better ask questions about it, I think (as a professional physics educator) he bears a responsibility to explain things in as clear and consistent a manner as possible. And running off being inconsistent with his terminology and language makes that extremely difficult and leads to unnecessary confusion (much of which was on display even in this thread).

All of that said, from reading through Mitch's posts over at the C&A forum again and digging through all the helpful posts here, I now understand just what he was trying to say. And I understand that his method really is, as someone upthread stated, kind of a "cheat" that does actually work (in a manner of speaking); I just disagree with this approach because of my criticisms in #2 above.

Lastly, I really would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the thread, including Mitch. I've learned something new, and I can take that back to my students.

Cheers - MM
 
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- the amount of matter in universe is finite (or if expanding, only at its remotest outer edges)

I don't see how this is assumed or implied and I believe that what you have in parentheses has been established to be incorrect.
Finiteness of existing matter is a factor in time travel speculations.

Some theorize that time is fully a dimension, and it is possible to move along it to any direction and to any spot. A bit like choosing to watch a video from time 04:22, then spooling back to time 01:13 of the video. This would apparently require that the entire universe of past moments exists independently from the present one, so you have somewhere to go. Actually the whole universe would need to exist for each separate moment (if this topic is discussed from a layman common sense viewpoint), just like a full screen slide exists for every 1/24 second moment of a video clip.

The Hollywood version of time travel (Back to the Future, Meet the Robinsons, etc.) goes even further than assuming that the whole universe of the past exists: it also adds new matter to universe of the target time, by bringing the time traveller to meet himself in the past or future. The time traveller introduces his own mass as new matter in the universe of the target time. (And not just any new matter, but theoretically another copy of the exact same atoms which are in the brain cells etc. of the younger and older versions of the same person.)
 
Sympathies Mitch, IMHO it's surprisingly difficult to express things simply whilst still keeping everything 100% correct.
 
Most of the replies have been good, and I cannot fault @mitchellmccain either for an unorthodox explication of relativity or the idea that in some metaphorical sense, traveling at c is like infinitely fast travel. Especially as I have done both before.

The concept of infinite speed, however, is still problematic. By going fast enough, you could get to Alpha Centauri in five minutes of your proper time (if you could build such a ship and have it not vaporize, which of course you can't). So it would be like having a ship that could asymptotically approach infinite speed in Euclidean space-time.

However, the proper distance that you traveled would only be a little bigger than five light-minutes, so the speed calculated from that would still be less than c. Lorentz contraction would make you measure Alpha Centauri as only a bit more than five light minutes away when you started.
 
Finiteness of existing matter is a factor in time travel speculations.

Some theorize that time is fully a dimension, and it is possible to move along it to any direction and to any spot. A bit like choosing to watch a video from time 04:22, then spooling back to time 01:13 of the video. This would apparently require that the entire universe of past moments exists independently from the present one, so you have somewhere to go. Actually the whole universe would need to exist for each separate moment (if this topic is discussed from a layman common sense viewpoint), just like a full screen slide exists for every 1/24 second moment of a video clip.
I hope it is obvious that I am not one of these for that is part of what I mean when I say that there really is an arrow of time. Another way that I think of it is in terms of Everett's Many Worlds interpreation of quantum physics. I think these simply represent real possibilities for the future and that once the time passes I would say that this "superpostion" of possible futures has collapsed and that there never is any more than a single universe.

A recording is an inanimate object and I don't believe that such a conception of the universe is consistent with our experience of it. That's just my subjective philosophical opinion anyway.

The Hollywood version of time travel (Back to the Future, Meet the Robinsons, etc.) goes even further than assuming that the whole universe of the past exists: it also adds new matter to universe of the target time, by bringing the time traveller to meet himself in the past or future. The time traveller introduces his own mass as new matter in the universe of the target time. (And not just any new matter, but theoretically another copy of the exact same atoms which are in the brain cells etc. of the younger and older versions of the same person.)
The films that I found more interesting were "Butterfly effect" and "Donnie Darko". Both were pretty undemonstrable examples of time travel and thus more believable than most. Not that I think they were any more than just fun stories that may pose interesting philosophical questions, but not really believable possibilities.
 
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I hope it is obvious that I am not one of these for that is part of what I mean when I say that there really is an arrow of time. Another way that I think of it is in terms of Everett's Many Worlds interpreation of quantum physics. I think these simply represent real possibilities for the future and that once the time passes I would say that this "superpostion" of possible futures has collapsed and that there never is any more than a single universe.

The interesting thing, to me, (as if MW wasn't interesting enough ;) ) is that when one talks about the so-called arrow of time in a thermodynamic sense, the idea breaks down at the quantum level. If we think of the arrow of time as outlined by increases in entropy as usually described, and if we understand the real statistical nature of "heat flowing from hot to cold" and the increase of entropy in a closed system, when the system is a relatively small number of atoms/molecules (such as in quantum scenarios) then it is not uncommon to see "violations" of the laws of thermodynamics.

They aren't really violations per se, because it makes sense when one understands the statistical nature of what's going on (I made a really good post about this awhile back - got me nominated :) ), but it does have weird implications for the so-called arrow of time concept.

Freaky!
 
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I say that there really is an arrow of time. (...)
once the time passes I would say that this "superpostion" of possible futures has collapsed and that there never is any more than a single universe.
There has been tens of pages of discussion about time and existence in a few threads around here, and so far I have been unable to agree with Roboramma etc. about the question of simultaneity of all existence in universe, among other things.

I have (unsuccessfully) tried to get acceptance for this kind of a view on reality:

The present moment is the only moment that exists. Past moments no longer exist (therefore also time travel to the past is impossible, because where you wish to go does not exist). Future moments will soon exist (therefore time travel to the future is possible, simply by waiting, or by delayed waiting by accelerating to a very high speed, which carries you further into the future than you normally would be biologically able to reach).

Many others at this forum have refused to accept the view that existence would be "simultaneous". I tried to prove the simultaneity of existence by saying that everything in the universe interacts with everything, even from a huge distance a dead object can interact with another object lightyears away by blocking light rays (leaving a shadow) etc. The universe is a huge grid of interaction subject to laws of nature, which must be understood as a simultaneously existing entity.

Somehow others refused to accept this view as such. People referred to things such as time dilation and length contraction as obstacles to perceiving whether two moments are simultaneous or not. Some also claimed that the chronological order (which event happened first and which after it) of two events can be sometimes understood in any order, depending from your point of observation, and there might be no way of proving which order is correct. I protested by saying that as everything in universe interacts with everything, it creates a hugely complex chain reaction of A.1 affecting B.1 to become B.2, which then affects C.1 to become C.2, which then affects A.1 to become A.2. This complex chain reaction of universal interaction has only one possible solution, only one correct way to understand in which chronological order events happened. Any other observation is a misperception of reality.
 
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JJM 777 explains why his arguments against Einstein's theory of relativity have failed to convince:

Somehow others refused to accept this view as such. People referred to things such as time dilation and length contraction as obstacles to perceiving whether two moments are simultaneous or not. Some also claimed that the chronological order (which event happened first and which after it) of two events can be sometimes understood in any order, depending from your point of observation, and there might be no way of proving which order is correct.
Those people must know something about Einstein's theory of relativity and its empirical support. In particular, those people may know that simultaneity is relative.

Albert Einstein wrote Relativity: the Special and the General Theory for a popular audience. Chapter 9 is titled "The Relativity of Simultaneity". As Einstein wrote in that chapter:

Albert Einstein said:
Every reference-body (coordinate system) has its own particular time; unless we are told the reference-body to which the statement of time refers, there is no meaning in a statement of the time of an event.


JJM 777 disagrees with Mr Einstein:

This complex chain reaction of universal interaction has only one possible solution, only one correct way to understand in which chronological order events happened. Any other observation is a misperception of reality.
Untrue. There are multiple correct ways to understand the chronological order of events. All of those correct ways place causally related events in the same order, but they may disagree about the order of two events that stand outside each others' light cones.
 
This is nonsense, what the other guy is writing.....

Howdy all,

I am engaged in a discussion on another message board over at the Christian and Atheist forums (you have to sign up to see the thread, sorry), and I'm wrangling with a chap who seems to be pushing some kind of nonsense to me about relativity. This fellow, Mitch McKain, does seem to understand some relativity, but he seems to be explaining things in a really weird way that doesn't make sense to me.

So, I wanted to come check with some of you to see if anyone here can translate just what the hell he's talking about, because from what I know of relativity (though I'm no expert) this just seems like word salad to me...

In the OP he states the following:



That first line is what is troubling me. So I challenged him on it, and he responded thusly...



Can anyone here who has more knowledge of the subject please shed some light on just what the hell he's talking about, or is my initial suspicion correct and he's completely full of crap?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers - MM

This is nonsense, what the other guy is writing.....

If you could escape all gravitational effects and the field effects of other forces, the speed of light would be an absolute CONSTANT. There is in no way shape or form anything infinite about it.

Through an idealized field free vacuum light would travel at 186,000 miles per second. In a gravitational field light travels more slowly. As gravity is everywhere, light is never absolutely free of all gravitational qualifying considerations. But if anything, gravity slows light.

Light's behavior defines the shape, the "geodesic" of the space-time through which it travels. In this sense, its speed reflects the "shape" of space-time and defines the limits of space-time. What is possible within its boundaries as defined by light's speed.
 
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I have (unsuccessfully) tried to get acceptance for this kind of a view on reality:
That's because it is plain wrong.

It is a proven scientific fact that the speed of light is independent of the relative velocities of the source and the observer. It is a proven fact that any two people moving relative to one another will disagree about measurements of space and time on the same object.

The fact that relativity is incomprehensible to you doesn't mean that relativity is nonsense. It means you need to do more critical thinking. Until you do, anything you have to say about the nature of time is irrelevant.
 
Many others at this forum have refused to accept the view that existence would be "simultaneous". I tried to prove the simultaneity of existence by saying that everything in the universe interacts with everything, even from a huge distance a dead object can interact with another object lightyears away by blocking light rays (leaving a shadow) etc. The universe is a huge grid of interaction subject to laws of nature, which must be understood as a simultaneously existing entity.

How can you "prove" something by saying it?

We haven't accepted your "proof" because it is not a proof, but simply an assertion. You have presented no evidence for it. In fact, you have demonstrated complete ignorance of the facts. Experiments - the most precise experiments ever performed, in fact - show quite clearly that your assertion is wrong. Those experiments show that interactions are not simultaneous, but rather that all influences propagate at the speed of light or slower. Moreover, they show perfect consistency with Einstein's theory of relativity, which is in total conflict with your assertion.
 
There has been tens of pages of discussion about time and existence in a few threads around here, and so far I have been unable to agree with Roboramma etc. about the question of simultaneity of all existence in universe, among other things.
I don't really understand what "simultaneity of all existence" could mean. I don't think that anything that I said is inconsistent with the relativity of simultaneity.

The present moment is the only moment that exists. Past moments no longer exist (therefore also time travel to the past is impossible, because where you wish to go does not exist). Future moments will soon exist (therefore time travel to the future is possible, simply by waiting, or by delayed waiting by accelerating to a very high speed, which carries you further into the future than you normally would be biologically able to reach).
But what SR (i.e. the locally Minkowsky nature of space-time) adds to this is that this seperation between past present and future is entirely local and according to the light cone. In other words, there is no now-everywhere, but only a here-now.

Many others at this forum have refused to accept the view that existence would be "simultaneous". I tried to prove the simultaneity of existence by saying that everything in the universe interacts with everything, even from a huge distance a dead object can interact with another object lightyears away by blocking light rays (leaving a shadow) etc. The universe is a huge grid of interaction subject to laws of nature, which must be understood as a simultaneously existing entity.

Somehow others refused to accept this view as such. People referred to things such as time dilation and length contraction as obstacles to perceiving whether two moments are simultaneous or not. Some also claimed that the chronological order (which event happened first and which after it) of two events can be sometimes understood in any order, depending from your point of observation, and there might be no way of proving which order is correct. I protested by saying that as everything in universe interacts with everything, it creates a hugely complex chain reaction of A.1 affecting B.1 to become B.2, which then affects C.1 to become C.2, which then affects A.1 to become A.2. This complex chain reaction of universal interaction has only one possible solution, only one correct way to understand in which chronological order events happened. Any other observation is a misperception of reality.
Well it looks like you are going to have to add me to that list of people who do not accept your view of things, and I very much think that it contradicts the scientific evidence.
 
I protested by saying that as everything in universe interacts with everything, it creates a hugely complex chain reaction of A.1 affecting B.1 to become B.2, which then affects C.1 to become C.2, which then affects A.1 to become A.2. This complex chain reaction of universal interaction has only one possible solution, only one correct way to understand in which chronological order events happened. Any other observation is a misperception of reality.

Well, you're flat wrong, and the way you are wrong is extremely simple. You've ignored the speed of light; while there are many things (those with x <= ct) that I can interact with, there are also many things (those with x > ct) that I cannot interact with, because they're outside my light cone. Many things are causally-disconnected, and it does not disturb the logic of the "chain reaction" if these events get reordered depending on the observer.

And that's exactly what relativity does. It allows that causally-disconnected, light-speed-separated events have ambiguous ordering. It enforces that all observers agree on the order of causally-connected, in-light-cone events. You're correct to say that causality is important and that the laws of physics shouldn't bungle it. You are incorrect to think that SR bungles it.
 
For a light ray itself there is no passage of time....

Wouldn't an infinite speed imply movement in no time, i.e. instant movement?

So, the speed of light can't be infinite in that sense, or 'light-year' would be meaningless.

For a light ray itself there is no passage of time....As the speed of light is approached, time slows. The faster one goes, the slower time goes until one reaches the speed of light and at that point there is no "movement" time wise.

That said, motion is always of course relative and it is commonly pointed out in the context of learning about relativity for the first time, and appropriately so, that everything in a very meaningful sense may be viewed as moving at the speed of light.
 
I don't know if this is OT or a stupid question but if a photon oscillates with a particular frequency we can tell how many times it oscillates from it's source to our eye or whatever but in the photons frame there is no time so how can it oscillate?
 
experiments show that interactions are not simultaneous, but rather that all influences propagate at the speed of light or slower.
I agree that interaction takes time, it happens at a speed. Everything what happens, happens at a speed and takes some time.

This notion alone does not negate the possibility that all existence might be simultaneous. Analogically, I can say kicking a football takes time, yet my foot and the ball exist simultaneously.

this seperation between past present and future is entirely local and according to the light cone. In other words, there is no now-everywhere, but only a here-now.
Is it a proven fact that there is no now-everywhere? See my points below, they are the reason why I assume that a now-everywhere should theoretically exist.

Many things are causally-disconnected, and it does not disturb the logic of the "chain reaction" if these events get reordered depending on the observer.

And that's exactly what relativity does. It allows that causally-disconnected, light-speed-separated events have ambiguous ordering.
My logical obstacle to accepting this thought lies here:

- Local events are subject to causal interaction, and have a strict chronological order. We can write a timeline of local events, second by second what happened at 15:40:45, and what happened a second later, and so on.

- Remote events interact via light rays, among other things. Assume that beings on two planets very remote from each other observe each other with a powerful telescope. These two planets are outside of the lightcones of each other, you would say: they are not part of the same "local here".

On both of the planets X and Y, an observer has a webcam looking out of his window towards a randomly erupting volcano, and another webcam looking at the other planet through a telescope. Both webcams (on both planets, which makes total 4 webcams) record what they see 24/7, and label each frame with a timestamp, and store the data permanently on a hard disk. Thus we have a well documented local timeline on both planets, and well documented observations what was seen happening on the other planet at the same moment. (These seen events happened some time earlier than they are seen, of course.)

By comparing the timestamped recordings of the four webcams, we can prove a lot about the chronological order of events. When we witness a remote event, it is proof of chronological order: what we see certainly happened before we see it. There can be no relative ambiguity about that.

Actually we should be able to synchronize the timelines of all four webcams with the precision of 1/24 fraction of a second, by comparing the timestamps of several volcanic eruptions which are seen in the local and remote webcams of the two planets, and which overlap so that we can limit the chronological order in both directions, not only "all of this happened before all of that". Once we have established a synchronization between the timelines of planets X and Y, we have a universal timestamp (what comes to these two planets) which can be used to synchronize any other event whose timestamp is locally known.
 
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- Remote events interact via light rays, among other things. Assume that beings on two planets very remote from each other observe each other with a powerful telescope. These two planets are outside of the lightcones of each other, you would say: they are not part of the same "local here".
Incorrect, they only observe what is in their own past light cone. Two observers seperated by a space-like interval do NOT observe each other.

On both of the planets X and Y, an observer has a webcam looking out of his window towards a randomly erupting volcano, and another webcam looking at the other planet through a telescope. Both webcams (on both planets, which makes total 4 webcams) record what they see 24/7, and label each frame with a timestamp, and store the data permanently on a hard disk. Thus we have a well documented local timeline on both planets, and well documented observations what was seen happening on the other planet at the same moment. (These seen events happened some time earlier than they are seen, of course.)
...
But this is only true if the two planets remain in the same inertial frame . Otherwise the videos will not agree and you cannot establish any unique time line using them. We already know that we can define a such a time-line for a single inertial frame. The problem is that we have no reason to choose one inertial frame over another one and so the ordering you have made is as arbitrary as your choice of an inertial frame. The only absolute ordering of events is completely local according to the light cone there.
 
I don't know if this is OT or a stupid question but if a photon oscillates with a particular frequency we can tell how many times it oscillates from it's source to our eye or whatever but in the photons frame there is no time so how can it oscillate?
It doesn't. The frequency goes to zero. That is what redshift is -- the frequency approaching zero as your velocity away from the source approaches that of the speed of light.
 
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It looks like I will again end up neither understanding nor believing that the chronological order of remote events would be relative, while the chronological order of local events is not.

If events within 0.9 light cones distance from each other are "local" and "chronologically ordered", I cannot see why events within 1.5 light cones from each other do not become chronologically ordered with each other, by a witness at half-way between them for whom they both are "local" and "chronologically ordered". Similarly, any distance of n light cones is theoretically bound chronologically together by a chain of local observers in between, at intervals short enough not to leave anywhere a gap longer than what is accepted as "local".
 

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