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Rick Santorum is an idiot, a bigot, and morally inconsistent...

gnome said:
To be honest this doesn't raise my eyebrows about racism at all. It is perfectly ideologically consistent for someone who genuinely believes all abortions are murder to wonder how someone who might feel the Dredd Scott decision more personally doesn't agree.

It is extremism on abortion, not racism. The only POSSIBLE way it could be taken as racist would be if one presumed that he didn't actually believe that, and was using it insincerely to conflate it with the Civil Rights movement, and thus uses the Civil Rights movement as tool.

That's a big if to use to conclude that someone has a problem with people's race. Even if I thought that the above was genuinely true of Santorum I would imagine that tacking on the Civil Rights issue was a matter of cynical expedience rather than a sign of racism.
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A little cherry picking there, gnome?
Last year he suggested that Democrats were fearful Obama could "go to Indonesia and bow to more Muslims" during an appearance on Fox News.
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RandFan said:
I don't think he was talking about black people. I honestly don't. I think it's like listening to records backwards. Once someone tells you what is being said then it sounds like it. Even still it doesn't sound like the word "black" to me. I could be wrong.
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Did you look at the Anderson Cooper piece on the issue?
 
gnome said:
To be honest this doesn't raise my eyebrows about racism at all. It is perfectly ideologically consistent for someone who genuinely believes all abortions are murder to wonder how someone who might feel the Dredd Scott decision more personally doesn't agree.

It is extremism on abortion, not racism. The only POSSIBLE way it could be taken as racist would be if one presumed that he didn't actually believe that, and was using it insincerely to conflate it with the Civil Rights movement, and thus uses the Civil Rights movement as tool.

That's a big if to use to conclude that someone has a problem with people's race. Even if I thought that the above was genuinely true of Santorum I would imagine that tacking on the Civil Rights issue was a matter of cynical expedience rather than a sign of racism.
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That's a pretty strained argument.

First, there's no reason to assume that "a black guy" because he's black would have any particular opinion on abortion.

Second, I find the entire invocation of Dred Scott wrt to abortion to be insincere. It started out as a code for candidates to nod to Pro-Lifers that they are Pro-Life even though they're not willing to say so to the Pro-Choice majority. Saying you oppose Dred Scott is pretty meaningless otherwise. I don't think you'll find anyone at all willing to admit that they support the Dred Scott decision. (That decision by the way essentially said that people brought here as slaves from Africa or their descendants are denied constitutional rights as persons. It is no longer current jurisprudence and is irrelevant to any contemporary discussions.)

Suggesting that black people should somehow oppose Dred Scott more strongly than anyone else (or strong enough that it would take away the option of "a black guy" to be Pro-Choice) is really weird, and, I believe racist.
 
Here's the full quote:

"Welfare just keeps expanding - I was in Indianola a few months ago and I was talking to someone who works in the department of public welfare here, and she told me that the state of Iowa is going to get fined if they don't sign up more people under the Medicaid program. They're just pushing harder and harder to get more and more of you dependent upon them so they can get your vote. That's what the bottom line is. I don't want to make people's lives better by giving them somebody else's money; I want to give them the opportunity to go out and earn the money, and provide for themselves and their families. The best way to do that is to get the manufacturing sector of the economy rolling again."

I highlighted the "you", that's the people in the crowd he was addressing, those are the "people" he was referring to when he said "people's lives".

Take "black" out of the quote and it makes perfect sense, it's completely in line with his opinion on welfare. Add "black " into it and it's a complete non sequitur, why would he suddenly be talking about black people when it is clear he was talking about them, the crowd (which is mostly white), and their money and their families.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Did you look at the Anderson Cooper piece on the issue?
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Heaven help me. Re: Pelly interview. Okay, clearly Santorum doesn't quickly deny his use of the word. If that sentiment doesn't live in him then I would think "hell no" would be the first words out of his mouth. That said, he does seem genuinely perplexed. Now, of course that could be he was caught and that was the best (pathetic excuse) he could come up with.

Let me be clear, I started this thread, I wrote the title. Do I think he could be a racist? Yeah, I think he likely is. Did he say "black" or did he mean black people. I'll grant that he very well could have. I will back off from saying I don't think he did say it but I remain unconvinced. I'll stake out not sure. It's not that clear but I don't care to debate it. BTW: Did you see the TYT episode on it?
 
Pardalis said:
And what if he didn't say black?....
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It still reflects the false belief that people on welfare are all capable of working but prefer the dole. People who fit that description are a very tiny minority of government free lunch recipients. And as for welfare itself, 90% of welfare recipients are poor single mothers. 74% have 2 kids or less and only 10% have more than 3 kids.

The problem is not race or unwillingness to work. Do they need help? Yes. But maybe it's education and available affordable child care they need, not more openings at McDonalds.

Many Welfare Recipients Lack the Basic Skills Needed to Succeed in the Workplace


When the right wing party sells the narrative, as they are currently doing, that the problem is not under-taxation of millionaires and billionaires, it is the lazy work ethic of the poor, that narrative is false and harmful.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
It still reflects the false belief that people on welfare are all capable of working but prefer the dole.
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It doesn't matter, that's your opinion on welfare, not his. The quote makes much more sense without "black" in it. The quote without "black" is consistent with his political position on welfare.
 
RandFan said:
If that sentiment doesn't live in him then I would think "hell no" would be the first words out of his mouth.
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Yep--that he found the charge plausible is in my mind pretty strong evidence that he indeed started to say "black people's lives".

Let me be clear, I started this thread, I wrote the title. Do I think he could be a racist? Yeah, I think he likely is. Did he say "black" or did he mean black people. I'll grant that he very well could have. I will back off from saying I don't think he did say it but I remain unconvinced.
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My take is that it sounded like he started to say "black people's lives" and caught himself as the words were coming out and tried to say only "people's lives". Not a big deal, but the other examples of his making racist comments and his willingness to believe that "black people's lives" was something he might've said, supports my initial impression of the video*: he probably started to say it, but tried to stop saying it as the word was coming out.

At any rate, there are certainly plenty of other reasons to reject him as a good person for the job of POTUS. I doubt anyone will make a decision based on whether or not he said the word "black" in this instance alone.

*ETA: Your point about pareidolia is a valid one though. I read quite a bit of talk about this before I watched the video clip. The hypothesis I had before watching it was that maybe he started by saying "the plight of people" or some such--I was looking for a flub with the word "plight" as a word that was intended and then rejected. When I watched it, it sounded (and looked) mostly like "black" or at least "bl-" to me.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
It still reflects the false belief that people on welfare are all capable of working but prefer the dole. People who fit that description are a very tiny minority of government free lunch recipients. And as for welfare itself, 90% of welfare recipients are poor single mothers. 74% have 2 kids or less and only 10% have more than 3 kids.

The problem is not race or unwillingness to work. Do they need help" Yes. But maybe it's education and available affordable child care they need, not more openings at McDonalds.

Many Welfare Recipients Lack the Basic Skills Needed to Succeed in the Workplace


When the right wing party sells the narrative, as they are currently doing, that the problem is not under-taxation of millionaires and billionaires, it is the lazy work ethic of the poor, that narrative is false and harmful.
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Yep, nail of head meet hammer. Where is the nexus between these Democrat think tanks or grand strategists who are conspiring to keep poor people poor to keep the politicians in office? Where is the evidence that his anecdote is even remotely true. I hate it when any politician pulls that "I talked to so and so". **** you. Do some research and give me the facts. And trust me on this one, I'll say that to Obama or any politician. Stop insulting me.

THE GOP HAS DONE NOTHING TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE POOR! Tell me the jobs bill they have introduced? Tell me the plan that will get poor people to work AND DON;T TELL ME GET GOVT OUT OF THE WAY. I think people like Santorum ought to be ashamed of using the plight of poor people to get them elected when they know that they are only interested in the plight of the rich. Poor rich people. What about their needs?
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
My take is that it sounded like he started to say "black people's lives" and caught himself as the words were coming out and tried to say only "people's lives".
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Again, why would he be talking about black people's lives to a white crowd? He clearly is talking about their lives and their money.
 
RandFan said:
... It's not that clear but I don't care to debate it. BTW: Did you see the TYT episode on it?
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I did just now.

I'm with Jenk there. Maybe Santorum tried to stop his comment midstream, but Paul and Santorum both have made statements reflecting a belief that blacks are looking for that free lunch.


But I'm fine with your move from 'not black' to 'could have been'. :)
 
Pardalis said:
It doesn't matter, that's your opinion on welfare, not his. The quote makes much more sense without "black" in it. The quote without "black" is consistent with his political position on welfare.
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The quote with "black" is also consistent with his political position on welfare if he's equating low income people with black people--or at least thinking that way.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
The quote with "black" is also consistent with his political position on welfare if he's equating low income people with black people--or at least thinking that way.
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But again, why bring up blacks when the full quotes clearly shows he's talking about them, the crowd, the white Iowans?
 
RandFan said:
Yep, nail of head meet hammer. Where is the nexus between these Democrat think tanks or grand strategists who are conspiring to keep poor people poor to keep the politicians in office? Where is the evidence that his anecdote is even remotely true. I hate it when any politician pulls that "I talked to so and so". **** you. Do some research and give me the facts. And trust me on this one, I'll say that to Obama or any politician. Stop insulting me.

THE GOP HAS DONE NOTHING TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE POOR! Tell me the jobs bill they have introduced? Tell me the plan that will get poor people to work AND DON;T TELL ME GET GOVT OUT OF THE WAY. I think people like Santorum ought to be ashamed of using the plight of poor people to get them elected when they know that they are only interested in the plight of the rich. Poor rich people. What about their needs?
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Funny how that seems to be a mainstay of conservative politics everywhere. Exactly the same narrative is given in Germany. And what is the solution? Cutting the support of the already poor and "liberating the job market" that it is easier to fire people and threaten them with it.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
....
*ETA: Your point about pareidolia is a valid one though. I read quite a bit of talk about this before I watched the video clip. The hypothesis I had before watching it was that maybe he started by saying "the plight of people" or some such--I was looking for a flub with the word "plight" as a word that was intended and then rejected. When I watched it, it sounded (and looked) mostly like "black" or at least "bl-" to me.
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I tried over and over to hear, "blah" or something else but could not. I'd love to see one of those digital analyses of the sound byte.
 
Pardalis said:
Again, why would he be talking about black people's lives to a white crowd? He clearly is talking about their lives and their money.
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Again, why not? (Language really does allow us to speak of things other than the people we're addressing.)

Do you deny that he was talking about low income people and people on welfare to a crowd that was mostly middle class (and presumably NOT on welfare)?

If he's talking about the lives and money of his audience, it's in a sense that their taxes are going toward welfare and he means to curtail that.
 
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