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"Ron Paul racist rant caught on tape!" (note, in quotes)

BTW, if he did vote against MLK day, what does it have to do with racism? My first thought would be, don't our overpaid federal employees get enough paid holidays? I'm sure that's what Ron Paul was thinking, too.

Now my memory may be failing be, but I seem to recall that the poster who brought up his MLK day voting record was trying to defend Paul while everyone else was using his referring to it as "hate whitey day" as the problem passage.

I think you're falling into some logical pitfalls, you've staked your conclusion so firmly that you'll go to any rationalization to defend it.
 
True, the issue is his total failure to properly manage and oversee the publication of the newsletters.
Alferd, I don't accept that he failed to oversee. And neither does his long-time former staffer:
Dondero said:
[Paul] absolutely read every single article ... was obsessed with the newsletter. Of all the things he’s fibbing about, this is the worst. He's completely telling falsehoods about the newsletters – they were his babies.
 
This is actually consistent with the philosophy he holds regarding the Federal Government, that since the constitution does not expressly give the Federal Government the right to establish national holidays, that power is reserved to the state and the people

Yes! National holidays should be in the hands of the states! I can't wait to celebrate Packer Day this year.
 
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You guys can't stand the fact that a man of peace is gaining traction in the presidential race for a change, as opposed to the usual warmongers who like to kill Asians and Arabs while bankrupting our country in the process.

"Asian" is an ethnic group comparable to Arabs?


Not to mention most Arab countries are in Asia Minor...
 
The principle here is that he would vote yes to a change in day to make the holiday less disruptive - a Monday holiday is usually more beneficial than a mid-week holiday - but vote no on establishing the holiday since that is not one of the powers given to congress by the constitution. A quirky stance, true, but still principled.
I am intrigued by the concept that Congress would not have the power to define the work schedule for the federal government.

One of the powers explicitly granted to the legislature: ”To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

It seems to me that if the legislature decided that it is only necessary to work four days in the third week of January instead of five, that is within the power granted through the above clause.

How are you interpreting it to mean something else?


ETA: I'm not even going to address the whole Monday, midweek, Sunday holiday issue which you seem to be totally confused about.
 
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So your logic is: He didn't write them, but he wrote them. I think most people have the intelligence to understand that he didn't approve of those words, even if you don't.
Nope. The problem is, arguing that they were ghost written in his name and in his persona does nothing to absolve him of responsibility for the comments.
 
He explained, and I'll accept, although you are free not to, that he was advised not to deny the statements when they first surfaced because it would cause confusion for his campaign at the time.
So his defense is that Ron Paul is not his own man? Either he caves into the bad advice of campaign advisors (to the extent of trying to defend the "fleet of foot" comment claiming it's not racist) or he is unable to be accountable for what was written in his name and in his persona in his newsletter.

No, I reject both of those excuses as absolving him of responsibility for the racist comments made in his newsletters under his name and in his persona.



It is clear from your take that the AIDs example is homophobic that you do not understand the line of reasoning that leads to the statements.
Bull. He claims AIDS is at least in part a lifestyle disease and that many AIDS victims are to blame. From the large quote you provided:

"The individual suffering from AIDS certainly a is victim -- frequently a victim of his own lifestyle -- but this same individual victimizes innocent citizens by forcing them to pay for his care."[/QUOTE]
And again, his position on public spending to combat AIDS is not an "example"--it's his actual position. He think spending public money to combat AIDS is the victimization of innocent tax payers. That's not an example of anything else; that's a Ron Paul policy position.

And the stuff where he claims the civil rights movement (which he refers to as "black rights") and women's rights, etc. are anathema to individual rights seems to me compatible with someone at least pandering to racism with the comments in question in the newsletter.
 
I feel like I am talking to rocks. Siri on my iPhone is far more intelligent than some of you people. Haven't you even bothered to read his statements on this matter? He didn't read them and wasn't even aware of them until long after they were published.

As long as you have the rock-like characteristic of ignoring the accumulating evidence that Ron Paul was lying through his teeth when he claimed to have been unaware of the statements written under his name and in his persona in the newsletter that was his obsession for many years.
 
Many people get gonorrhea, syphilis, or hepatitis from sexual activity. Do you think these diseases affords the sufferers to a special set of rights? If you have sex with someone who is infected with an STD, and you subsequently suffer or risk dying from that STD that does not give you the right to demand that others foot the bill for your care. It matters not whether the disease results in merely discomfort or has potential life impact. It also matters not whether the disease can be cured inexpensively or not. If it results from a risky decision you made, you bear responsibility. The government should not mandate that an insurance company has to cover a condition that results from a choice made by the individual, nor should the government force its citizens to pay for grants to fund research into cures for those conditions. The facts remain that the two leading vectors for AIDS are sexual activity and intravenous drug use. Those two sources are both personal decisions that carry risk. If you believe that paying for research to benefit AIDS/HIV victims is a worthwhile endeavor, no one is forcing you not to donate to that cause. Forcing me to donate to that cause through federal taxation is wrong. And if I come down with AIDS due to my own risky choices, I don't expect you to pay for me via taxation. I will request help from my community at that time, but ultimately, with freedom and responsibility comes risk.

A less controversial example would have been smokers, but at the time this was written, 1988, the spread of AIDS as a result of unprotected sex was just entering the national consciousness, hence I see no problem with Ron Paul using it as an example.

Those of us who really get the principle of individual liberty with its associated risks resent being forced by our government to subsidize the choices made by others. Especially when this force comes from the federal government which was established merely to facilitate commerce between the states and provide a common face with which to interact with the world.

I have no problem with people who like having large social safety nets, and paying 20-40% of their income to subsidize those safety nets. If you like that sort of thing, why not campaign for your individual state to support those things on a more local level, and let me move to a state which offers more individual responsibility. Having that kind of thing dictated on a federal level with a one size fits all approach infringes on both individual sovereignty and the right of the people to have a government that reflects their views. The current gridlock and divide in this nation is evidence of the fact that not everyone wants to do things the same way, so the closer to the community the government is, the more people can control the government rather than have the government control them.

Using government to force people to help others is wrong. End of story. I'm not interested in forcing you to subsidize things that I think are important, I'll use my own economic and social impact in my community to affect the changes I want, and I encourage you to do the same, provided you respect my right as an individual to be left the hell alone if I choose, and to make any decisions I want to make provided they do not result in the initiation of force against others.
 
Raz0rama, you and others are defending statements that Ron Paul himself has now denounced. Is he wrong to denounce? Or is he just playing politics? You know, saying whatever it takes to get elected, like all the Tweedledees and Tweedledums. Which do you think it is?

I pose this question under the highly sketchy assumption that Paul was unaware of the contents.
 
Did, Ron Paul ever say "damn liberal crackers think their GED levels the playing field and are too blinded by ideology to even see that they are wrong"?

Maybe I dreamed it.
 
No I am not. Someone is not a racist who tells the truth. I think Ron Paul is insensitive. If someone is racially color blind, he might draw the same conclusions about MLK without recognizing the contributions King has made to society.
And yet you labelled Jeremiah Wright's idea of truth as 'racist rants', then ran away when asked to provide examples. You've impeached your own credibility.
 
No, there weren't at least 50 incidents. If there were 50 passages as blatant as the few that we have seen, believe me, the media would be putting them out there.

They did.

It's anarchism to say that a person's property should not be confiscated for any reason? Why?
Because if a person's property can't be taken for any reason, then it's a given that also applies to his money. So the government has no right to take money from their people - aka. no taxation, period.

That's as basic a definition of anarchism as you can get .

Especially when this force comes from the federal government which was established merely to facilitate commerce between the states and provide a common face with which to interact with the world.
Wrong. That was the Articles of Confederation. And this is by far my biggest problem with libertarianism - a lot of them talk about how state governments are closer to the people and thus should have greater power and stuff. But from my perspective, if that is true, then people should be more loyal to their states over the federal government. We fought a war 150 years ago to destroy that idea, and I will never, ever accept that concept. One nation, indivisible, period.
 
Wrong. That was the Articles of Confederation. And this is by far my biggest problem with libertarianism - a lot of them talk about how state governments are closer to the people and thus should have greater power and stuff. But from my perspective, if that is true, then people should be more loyal to their states over the federal government. We fought a war 150 years ago to destroy that idea, and I will never, ever accept that concept. One nation, indivisible, period.

Well history is anathema to libertarians.
 
Raz0rama, you and others are defending statements that Ron Paul himself has now denounced. Is he wrong to denounce? Or is he just playing politics? You know, saying whatever it takes to get elected, like all the Tweedledees and Tweedledums. Which do you think it is?

I pose this question under the highly sketchy assumption that Paul was unaware of the contents.

I'm not defending anything that he's denounced. I'm defending his denouncement of what I believe does not reflect his views or the platform he stands on today.

Ron Paul has not distanced himself from the views expressed in the book I quoted and linked, the views I'm defending. He distanced himself from the smattering of derogatory and racially charged statements gleaned from 10 years of newsletters under his name that have become the source of controversy.

As I put in one of my previous posts, I'm not defending the newsletters, merely pointing out that it is not unreasonable to believe that he did not write the offending statements, and that he does not hold the offending views. I do not endorse or support the offending parts of the newsletters.

He does not believe that anyone should get special treatment by the government, white, black, Latino, woman, homosexual, or bigot. All should be treated as equal under the law, and none should be subjected to forcible deprivation of property justly acquired. That is a platform I can support and endorse. It is also the least racist position of any that is possible, since it denies the premise that different people should be treated differently because of race.

If Ron Paul was any other politician who makes campaign promises and breaks them, changes views on issues to suit the political winds, or attempts to portray failures as successes, misleads their constituency about what is actually going on under their term in office, then I would probably feel much as you do that there is no reason to believe him when he says he doesn't support those viewpoints and did not write them. By and large however, he is the most genuine, principled, and consistent candidate for the nomination, and as such I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt in this instance.

I believe questions about the newsletters are valid, and that any concerns they raise are justified. I also believe that explanations that he has given are adequate, and that this far down the road (15-20 years later) one should base their opinion of the man on the platform and message he is campaigning on today, which is largely unchanged from what he ran on in the 80's.

As a white man who is married to a black woman, has several family members in active duty in the military, and several close friends who are gay or bisexual, I can't honestly support any other candidate who is currently running for the GOP. I would probably support Gary Johnson if he had enough of a chance to win, but he was already excluded from the national stage by the organizers of most of the publicized debates, and I'd rather have Ron Paul with his baggage than any of the other candidates.



Somewhat off the current topic, but relevant to my views if you're interested, here's how I would compare Ron to our current commander-in-chief:

I think Paul is more principled than Obama, and I think Obama is more principled than most of the current GOP field. But Obama has continued and expanded many of the programs started under Bush that have eroded personal freedom in America, and he has failed to make good on some of the promises he made that helped him get elected that were actually within his power to keep, such as ending the Iraq War as soon as he got into office. I think Obama mistakenly believes that Government can be effectively used as a tool to improve the lives of people, but in order to do so, you have to increase the degree that Government is involved in their lives, increase the amount of funds appropriated from the people to support Government, and decrease the autonomy of individual citizens, make arbitrary and sometimes baseless decisions on who to help and who not to help, what to punish and what to reward, and so on. The same policies do not work for all people, so the closer to the people the policies are enacted, the more control people have over them, and the more freedom people have to vote with their feet if they do not like policies but can't effectively change them.

For what its worth, I don't believe that Obama should be judged by the words or actions of those he has associated with, and found the attacks based on Ayers and Wright to be distractions from the issues and pointless. Obama should be judged by what he actually says and does, as well as what he acknowledges he wrote, such as what is in his books. If I found out that there was an objectionable passage in something bearing Obama's name, and he claimed he hadn't written it and disavowed it, I'd be cautiously willing to accept his word. I just think he was swayed too much by his affiliations after he entered office, and tried too hard to please too many.

I'd rather a president who is principled and can't get any new expansionist legislation passed than one who panders to special interests and winds up allowing the worst parts of both parties to outweigh the actual needs and interests of the american people.

I know that Ron Paul hasn't got a hope in hell of achieving all of what he wants to do even if he's elected president, but the more support he gets the more other politicians will have to shift their views to compete, and the more chance there is for Americans to honestly evaluate the course of a country that was founded on the principle of individual liberty and restricted government, and has become one of the most expansionist, militaristic empires in the history of the world, engaged in everybody's business everywhere, with questionable return on investment for the huge debt its citizens will some day have to repay.

If you're happy with the way things are going and our prospects for the future, and believe we are on the right track, I'm happy for you, it's just not my cup of tea. I will however defend your right to support the ideas you want to support, as long as you do not initiate force against others to support those ideas. I can't grant you any rights - no one can - but I can do my damnedest to keep our rights from being further restricted and ease current restrictions on our rights.
 

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