Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[MitNagel]

That always struck me as ludicrously funny. Rudy is too nice a guy to break into his friends house, ergo he would require an invitation before going there to participate in the brutal sexual assault and murder of Meredith. Emily Post would be proud of Rudy.

If you're going to sexually assault and murder someone there's no way you would break into their house first.

What's more, even if you did commit such a breach of etiquette, you would be sure to lock the front door of the now deceased person on leaving.

 

[Teddy2007]

A correction: although (as with all sections) I did do some minor editing, the credit for the section on Quintavalle should go primarily to Newcomer (from IIP).

But in any case I'm sure I speak for the entire translation team when I say that the positive feedback is greatly appreciated.

It most certainly is (appreciated).
Teddy a.k.a. Newcomer at IIP

 

[Grinder]

I don't think either Nara Capezzali or Antonella Monacchia actually checked the time when they heard the scream. Both women had been asleep, they did not know for how long (because you never do know, just like that) and they did not look at the clock. Groupies might find that odd, but if we all went on the alert and called the police every time we heard a scream, the police still wouldn't come, because they'd be too busy answering all the calls from other people who'd heard screams. The Capezzali and Monacchia accounts are credible because they agree with each other on the central fact of the scream.

I am unique in never having heard a scream that concerned me enough to do anything at all. I can't remember ever hearing any scream of the nature that was described by Nara.

Monacchia wasn't awakened by a scream but rather a man and woman arguing in Italian with no noticeable accents, which would leave out Amanda, Meredith and according to Italian PGP Raffaele.

I have never heard an explanation that began to make any sense as to whom was arguing in Italian and why.

 

[codyjuneau]

If you're going to sexually assault and murder someone there's no way you would break into their house first.

What's more, even if you did commit such a breach of etiquette, you would be sure to lock the front door of the now deceased person on leaving.

And would it have killed him to flush that turd away before he left!

 

[LondonJohn]

A correction: although (as with all sections) I did do some minor editing, the credit for the section on Quintavalle should go primarily to Newcomer (from IIP).

But in any case I'm sure I speak for the entire translation team when I say that the positive feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks to you and to everyone else involved in the organised translation effort. I feel a bit guilty for not contributing - although my Italian is only of a rough conversational level - but I was snowed under with work running up to Christmas, and I've been aggressively relaxing over the past week

Incidentally, just as a pointer for any discussion of Nara Capezzali and body clocks vs the end of Summer Time: in 2007, the clocks in Italy went back on the night of Saturday 27th / Sunday 28th October - some five nights before the night of Meredith's murder. So I don't think one can really seriously try to ascribe "time change confusion" over Capezzali's "recollection" of events. Unfortunately, the truth is either that Capezzali heard another "scream of death" that was totally unconnected to the murder of Meredith Kercher (unlikely, in my view), or that she was honestly mistaken (possible), or that she was lying (possible).

Oh, and while I'm at it, it's not hard to divine that Meredith's UK mobile was a regular (i.e. not a flip-phone) model of SonyEricsson K770. It's listed in Massei and in several other sources. It's also not hard to figure out that the button pushes at around 10pm were not "butt calls". If they were, the calls would have connected to the network at least. However, in each case, the call was quickly terminated before a connection to the network had been established. This means by definition that the "terminate call" button was pressed very quickly after the number was dialled by the phone. It's impossible to believe that in both cases the "terminate call" button would have been the one that was coincidentally pressed in a "butt call" situation. Instead, it's reasonable to conclude that someone was looking at the handset at the time of these rogue button pushes, saw the phone dialling the two numbers (Abbey Bank and Voicemail), and immediately pressed the appropriate button to quickly terminate the call.

Since it's also unreasonable to suppose that the person in control of the phone at that moment was Meredith herself (as per the ludicrous and bogus "reasoning" of Massei), the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that at 10pm, the UK handset was in the hands of Meredith's killer. From that, it's then reasonable to suppose two things: 1) Meredith was likely dead (or fatally wounded) by the time of this phone activity, and 2) the killer was trying to do something with the phone - most likely turn it off - when he mistakenly caused two outgoing calls which he then quickly terminated.

 

[Grinder]

If it could be shown that Knox had instead been waiting outside Quintavalle's shop just before 8.00am on the 2nd, I believe this would have been massively damaging to both Knox and Sollecito. After all, this is not something that Knox in particular would be able to have forgotten in her recall of that morning, so the only thing a court could conclude was that she was deliberately lying to the police (and the court) to conceal her presence at the shop at that early time in the morning. I think that even regardless of what she might have been trying to buy (or not buy), the very issue of her lying about her whereabouts the morning after the murder would have been a very serious piece of probative evnidence.

Well, yeah. (That was not a high five or an atta boy) Obviously, allowing Quintavalle to testify was prejudicial. If there was a video of Amanda entering the shop at 7:45, I'd be signed up over at the dreaded sites and calling for conviction.

Had she been buying the day after pill (highly unlikely in Italy I'd imagine) or something embarrassing (enema, tampons) then it would not be entirely serious. It would never be probative to the actual crime unless there had been a cleanup (not just the absence of what Massei wanted to be there) and the video showed a mop head under her coat, but it would and did undermine her credibility

Quintavalle combined with Curatolo were the one two punches that made them the liars some like to call them.

 

[geebee2]

From that, it's then reasonable to suppose two things: 1) Meredith was likely dead (or fatally wounded) by the time of this phone activity, and 2) the killer was trying to do something with the phone - most likely turn it off - when he mistakenly caused two outgoing calls which he then quickly terminated.

or 3) the killer was looking for credit card PINs.

It's very common for people to store these in their phones, and credit/bank cards were stolen.

I think the scream was real but unrelated to the murder.

Witness Monacchia was woken up after a certain time by two persons discussing aloud, a man and a woman, who spoke in Italian, apparently without regional accents, and she added that soon after the strong scream of a woman was heard.

from http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/time-of-death/

The two people could not have been Raffaele and Amanda. Screams are really common, probably you would get one every few nights in an area like that.

 

[Grinder]

Oh, and while I'm at it, it's not hard to divine that Meredith's UK mobile was a regular (i.e. not a flip-phone) model of SonyEricsson K770. It's listed in Massei and in several other sources. It's also not hard to figure out that the button pushes at around 10pm were not "butt calls". If they were, the calls would have connected to the network at least. However, in each case, the call was quickly terminated before a connection to the network had been established. This means by definition that the "terminate call" button was pressed very quickly after the number was dialled by the phone. It's impossible to believe that in both cases the "terminate call" button would have been the one that was coincidentally pressed in a "butt call" situation. Instead, it's reasonable to conclude that someone was looking at the handset at the time of these rogue button pushes, saw the phone dialling the two numbers (Abbey Bank and Voicemail), and immediately pressed the appropriate button to quickly terminate the call.

Since it's also unreasonable to suppose that the person in control of the phone at that moment was Meredith herself (as per the ludicrous and bogus "reasoning" of Massei), the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that at 10pm, the UK handset was in the hands of Meredith's killer. From that, it's then reasonable to suppose two things: 1) Meredith was likely dead (or fatally wounded) by the time of this phone activity, and 2) the killer was trying to do something with the phone - most likely turn it off - when he mistakenly caused two outgoing calls which he then quickly terminated.

Atta boy! Nice work on those butt calls.

Hellmann definitely did a good job of nailing (no offense MitNagel) the TOD even without using the science.

It's too bad that the PGP have Curatolo to deal with because the 10pm TOD is just so difficult to accept with his testimony.

People forget that the original TOD for the PLE was before 10pm. Patrick had an alibi after 10:30 but that didn't get him out until the professor testified he was with Patrick from 8 on.

 

[Draca]

A correction: although (as with all sections) I did do some minor editing, the credit for the section on Quintavalle should go primarily to Newcomer (from IIP).

But in any case I'm sure I speak for the entire translation team when I say that the positive feedback is greatly appreciated.

It most certainly is (appreciated).
Teddy a.k.a. Newcomer at IIP

**Atta Boys!**
High 5s to all of you!

 

[MitNagel]

**Atta Boys!**
High 5s to all of you!


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/401664f0246be5660f.jpg[/qimg]

Begins a chorus of 'How Great Thou Art'.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hellmann-Zanetti on the Alibi

Just finished reading the translation of Hellmann-Zanetti on the "alibi" for Knox and Sollecito.

This one leaves me a tad embarrassed. When I started looking into this case in the summer of 2011, I was taken in by the (then) suggestion that regardless of the nature and reliability of the DNA stuff back at the scene, there was still "plenty of other circumstantial evidence pointing to their guilt", esp. all the minutiae about the alibi.

This leaves aside for a minute what Sollecito said in interrogation that if he was asleep, he could not say with 100% certainty that Knox, herself, had not slipped out. Knox herself briefly got trapped by that canard.

But if I had started posting to sites back in August, rather than in October, I may have pointed out all the minutiae associated with the alibis, that supposedly destroyed them. I'm glad I didn't.

Reading Hellmann-Zanetti is a breath of fresh air. In short, of the 10 issues of minutiae he examines (turned off cell phones, no computer activity, Knox showering twice, Knox not knowing about Mr. Sollectio's 9:30 am, Nov 2nd call) he concludes quite rightly that neither singly nor taken in aggregate do they destroy anything related to stated alibis.

Further, the alibis as they were challenged in those 10 points, cannot trump the larger evidence which acquits! Even if Knox HAD SLIPPED OUT unbeknownst to Sollecito, it is almost certain that she went somewhere else other than the cottage to participate in murder.

Also, the notion that Curatolo destroys Knox & Sollecito's alibi is taken care of very curtly:

The unreliability of witness Curatolo has already been explained (even if, in truth, once the time of the attack on Meredith Kercher has been determined to be around 10:00 pm, he would, if reliable, actually serve to fully exonerate the two current defendants).

So it is not only the bathmat which PGP need to argue, lest they lose that, it is now ToD vs. what Curatolo saw, which he probably saw the night before as it was!

There simply IS no "other evidence".

The only thing missing in this whole scenerio was this kind of crisp logic when the police were initially investigating the crime in 2007.

Once again, wow, just wow. I am so glad I did not post to sites before October.....

 

[Grinder]

So it is not only the bathmat which PGP need to argue, lest they lose that, it is now ToD vs. what Curatolo saw, which he probably saw the night before as it was!
.

He didn't see anything the night before either. He didn't see Amanda and Raffaele there for 2 hours on Halloween. Unless a certain trainee journalist tells all, we will never know why Curatolo told his tale.

Curatolo never was consistent with any scenario - that's why they had to get him to change his original testimony and move TOD to 11:30 well later than anybody but certain "special" people could believe.

Every piece of evidence pointed to the earlier TOD that even Mignini believed in until Nara's and Curatolo's miracle appearances.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

A correction: although (as with all sections) I did do some minor editing, the credit for the section on Quintavalle should go primarily to Newcomer (from IIP).

But in any case I'm sure I speak for the entire translation team when I say that the positive feedback is greatly appreciated.

Everyone involved with the translation is doing an excellent job and you all deserve many thanks.

 

[RWVBWL]

I think he cut himself in Germany to have a wound consistent with his story. He also could have cut himself while stabbing Meredith if his hand slipped onto the blade during the attack.

The cut doesn't look three weeks old - that's when he was caught.

Hi Grinder and everyone else,
I'd like to throw in an opinion, if I may.
Since Rudy did go out dancing just hours after Meredith Kercher's brutal murder, I just can't seem to picture him doing so with cuts on a hand that had bled. I've read that Rudy was a good dancer, wouldn't he have been worried about a cut reopening while on the dance floor, hands raised in the air as he grooved to whatever the DJ was playin?

From what I recall, he was also out at The Domus, clubbing again the next night, and even danced thru a moment of silence given in Meredith's memory. None of his friends have ever made mention of seeing his hand cut on those 2 nights, so either it wasn't cut or he hid it from them very well, not botherin' to shake hands with his boyz. Maybe his crew just touched closed-fisted knuckles, as many of my friends and I do too...

My current thoughts are that Rudy cut it while on the run over the next week, probably doing so if he broke in someplace to crash for the night.

I say this for I doubt that Rudy had 50 Euro's(!) to pay someone to show him a nice place, like a nursery school, to sleep safely, like he said he did in Milan. And he had to sleep somewhere, so howd' he get inside?
Hmmm...

See ya,
RW

 

[simper]

ffs Knox probably did not do it and if I had to bet my life I'd say she very likely did not do it. Occam's razor. If you think you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that she killed then apply to the FBI.

 

[komponisto]

ffs Knox probably did not do it and if I had to bet my life I'd say she very likely did not do it. Occam's razor.

Precisely.

If you think you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that she killed then apply to the FBI.

...where you would be promptly rejected for getting the wrong answer on a no-brainer.

 

[Grinder]

Hi Grinder and everyone else,
I'd like to throw in an opinion, if I may.
Since Rudy did go out dancing just hours after Meredith Kercher's brutal murder, I just can't seem to picture him doing so with cuts on a hand that had bled.

Nice to see back RW .

This deserves a high five atta boy as you have subtly backed my idea that he cut himself after the event. I'm still leaning towards him doing it on purpose, but your scenarios certainly work.

He had Meredith's rent money and he wasn't spending it on rail tickets. He could have run out and cut himself breaking in although his MO was using a big rock. If he stole, it would have to have been cash or something very easy to turn into cash.

At any rate he didn't have those wounds for three weeks without them being pretty damn deep when made.

 

[Grinder]

komponisto thanks for your translations and leadership in putting the Hellmann report online in English in a timely fashion. Please pass the thanks on to all those doing the translations.

Should you see criticisms uttered by the barren minds from far off lands please ignore them and continue your superior efforts allowing intelligent discussion of the most important document relating to the case at this moment in time.

A high five thank you to you and yours!

 

[LondonJohn]

Two men were today convicted in The Old Bailey of the murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence some 19 years ago. They were convicted largely because advances in DNA typing technology over the past decade mean that new DNA evidence tying these men to the murder could now be presented in their prosecution.

Inevitably, some of the less intelligent and/or less well-informed pro-guilt commentators have leaped on this case and have drawn ill-judged parallels to the Kercher case. What they still seem either unable or unwilling to understand is the following:

There is a massive and critically-important difference between

a) forensic evidence which is identified in a timely manner, which is properly collected and handled, which is properly stored in sterile conditions that minimise deterioration, and which is ultimately tested in proper scientific laboratory conditions that meet required protocols & processes, and

b) forensic evidence which is not identified in a timely manner, which is collected and handled in ways which leave the door wide open for contamination, which is stored in egregiously incorrect ways that actively encourage deterioration, and which is ultimately tested in an unscientific manner that disregards internationally-agreed and crucially-important protocols and processes.

In the former case, forensic samples can quite happily sit for years or even decades (provided they are being correctly stored), and will still yield reliable and truthful DNA typing results if they are properly tested. In the latter case, the "Garbage In, Garbage Out" principle means that the evidence was effectively fatally tainted from the very start. When you throw in the dreadful and sub-amateur storage methods, and the incompetent (at best) laboratory testing, it gets even worse.

Here's the truth: in the instances of the kitchen knife and the bra clasp in the Kercher case, these pieces of evidence were completely compromised by the way in which they were identified, handled, collected, stored and tested. It's near-unbelievable that virtually every step in this chain from initial identification through to final interpretation of lab tests was incompetent, shoddy, faulty and potentially maliciously biased.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,
This break in that you noted below in the Massei Report sure sounds just like the staged break-in that the pro-guilt people often state that Amanda and Raff did the night Miss Kercher was murdered:




Were Amanda and Raff involved in that break-in also?
Did they stage that 1 too?

What a sec, how could Amanda and Raffaele,
(using the same MO as they did when they created the staged break-in inside Filomena's bedroom), have done so at the lawyers office break-in on Oct. 13 or Oct. 14?

They did not even meet until Oct. 25 at the classical music concert!
Hmmm, I'll have to ponder this some more...
L8, RW


PS-Happy Holidays everyone!

Nice catch, RW! Nice to see you posting again as well!

Another interesting thing is the spate of second-story burglaries about town, which I've heard was added to in Nina Burleigh's book, ended with the arrest of Rudy Guede. As I recall there was someone here who tracked down that information...