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Two Abortion Doctors Charged With Murder

slingblade said:
That's a bit of a stretch, even for a rousing game of semantics.

"Fully formed" is definable, as is "fully developed."

A fully formed fetus is recognizable as a human, and (barring birth defect), all of its limbs and organs are present in their final shapes. This has happened by the 10th week of gestation, give or take a week.

Yes, the body will continue to develop, which largely means the fetus continues to mature and to grow. And yes, this growth will continue for many years. But your hand won't continue to form fingers; your feet won't continue to form toes; you won't sprout additional lips or eyes or ears. You are fully formed at roughly 10 weeks. Now, you must develop and mature.
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This has the feeling of a legal definition rather than a scientific one. Certainly the important part is brain development and not limbs and fingers.
 
Beerina said:
This has the feeling of a legal definition rather than a scientific one. Certainly the important part is brain development and not limbs and fingers.
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This has the feeling of opinion. If you don't like the way I described it, look it up for yourself.

I got my information from having been pregnant and learning about it then from doctors and medical books, and today I got my explanation from medical sites, not legal ones.

wiki said:
Changes by weeks of gestation
From the 8th week until birth (around 38 weeks), the developing organism is called a fetus. The fetus is not as sensitive to damage from environmental exposures as the embryo, and toxic exposures often cause physiological abnormalities or minor congenital malformation. All major structures are already formed in the fetus, but they continue to grow and develop.
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There you go.
 
kerikiwi said:
If it is utterly uninteresting, why did you introduce the 'fully-formed' descriptor?
I think you were very interested, until the uselessness of the term was pointed out.
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I have very little time to spend on useless people like JJ who only want to relativise and be a contrarian for the sake of it. Everybody understands what I meant. I predict the next thing JJ is going to say is that not all infant have all their parts, some are born handicapped and missing limbs and organs. It doesn't matter, a fully formed fetus is a fetus that has matured into an infant.
 
Let's call "late term abortion" by it's right name - pre=term infanticide.
 
Walrus32 said:
Let's call "late term abortion" by it's right name - pre=term infanticide.
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Yep because shaping language to elicit emotional reactions is much better than debating facts. It is like the great term like partial birth abortion. We need to raise the risk of the god cursed sluts clearly. So that when they face the need to abort their fetus or die they make the right choice and die with their fetus. Anyone else is a selfish slut clearly.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Yep because shaping language to elicit emotional reactions is much better than debating facts. It is like the great term like partial birth abortion. We need to raise the risk of the god cursed sluts clearly. So that when they face the need to abort their fetus or die they make the right choice and die with their fetus. Anyone else is a selfish slut clearly.
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You just don't get it. Those sluts carry babies for 7+ months just for the sick, satanic joy of having life-threatening complications that allow them to commit legally sanctioned murder. It happens all the time!

</sarcasm>
 
Maybe I misunderstood what happened. Were they performing a procedure that was illegal under this law to begin with, or are they charged because something went wrong and it was their fault?
 
Way back in the 1960s when I worked as a porter in a major London hospital, a colleague commented about the A&E record book that “there were a lot of abortions recorded” without realising that what is colloquially called a “miscarriage” is medically recorded as an abortion.

Leaping in and having a go at someone on the limited information which is available is not a good idea.
 
gnome said:
Maybe I misunderstood what happened. Were they performing a procedure that was illegal under this law to begin with, or are they charged because something went wrong and it was their fault?
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Who knows? There was a death, maybe just a complication on a troubled pregnancy, maybe serious malpractice. They got investigated and because of the freezer got hit with a bunch of charges.

This could all be fairly legitimate or total crap.
 
Babbylonian said:
You just don't get it. Those sluts carry babies for 7+ months just for the sick, satanic joy of having life-threatening complications that allow them to commit legally sanctioned murder. It happens all the time!

</sarcasm>
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At least people who actually save their lives do loose their jobs because of it.
 
slingblade said:
all of its limbs and organs are present in their final shapes
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This sounds objective enough, when we omit the "in their final shapes".
slingblade said:
the premise that aborting a fully-formed fetus is "murder," that's not true from the legal standpoint. (...) Aborting a fully-formed 10-week-old fetus is legal, and would not be considered a "murder" according to virtually all abortion laws.
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This is what I wanted to squeeze from Pardalis, I saw a contradiction in his statement. But he found his own incoherence "uninteresting" to discuss.
 
JJM 777 said:
This sounds objective enough, when we omit the "in their final shapes".
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No, because "shape" is a basic term, and is differentiated from "development." The hands and feet are no longer shaped like paddles, you see? They have palms and fingers, soles and toes. They have their "shape." They will grow longer, and acquire a fat pad, but they will not change their basic form, barring accident, no matter how old you get.

This is what I wanted to squeeze from Pardalis, I saw a contradiction in his statement. But he found his own incoherence "uninteresting" to discuss.
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I noted that. ;)
 
gnome said:
Maybe I misunderstood what happened. Were they performing a procedure that was illegal under this law to begin with, or are they charged because something went wrong and it was their fault?
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They were charged because in the aftermath of a medical debacle where a procedure went badly they drove their patient to the ED rather than calling 911, for some reason police decided to search the clinic, and found (perhaps with actual medical professionals making the exam, but the article doesn't say, so perhaps not too) that one of the fetuses in cold storage looked to them to be too far along developmentwise to have been legal to abort. From my perspective, this looks like a couple of out-of-state doctors who didn't want to get involved when their patient had complications, which is despicable but probably not illegal, combined with a witch hunt. They wanted to charge the doctors with something, so they searched till something was found to justify an arrest. My prediction is that actual experts will go into the courtroom and explain how development scales give a range, how the doctors can't ever be precisely certain how old a fetus is, and that the law specifically exempts medical procedures and is aimed at giving an extra charge when angry drunken boyfriends punch their babymommas in the belly. This is going to be dismissed, but at the same time have the outcome desired by the anti-abortion crowd; lots of negative publicity and some doctors tarred and feathered in the court of public opinion.
 
Caper said:
You are right... an appeal of emotion is a tactic. I used it to contrast yours.
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An appeal to emotion is an illegitimate and dishonest debating tactic. Thanks for making sure you've got plenty of contrast between you and me.
 
Andrew Wiggin said:
They were charged because in the aftermath of a medical debacle where a procedure went badly they drove their patient to the ED rather than calling 911, for some reason police decided to search the clinic, and found (perhaps with actual medical professionals making the exam, but the article doesn't say, so perhaps not too) that one of the fetuses in cold storage looked to them to be too far along developmentwise to have been legal to abort. From my perspective, this looks like a couple of out-of-state doctors who didn't want to get involved when their patient had complications, which is despicable but probably not illegal, combined with a witch hunt. They wanted to charge the doctors with something, so they searched till something was found to justify an arrest. My prediction is that actual experts will go into the courtroom and explain how development scales give a range, how the doctors can't ever be precisely certain how old a fetus is, and that the law specifically exempts medical procedures and is aimed at giving an extra charge when angry drunken boyfriends punch their babymommas in the belly. This is going to be dismissed, but at the same time have the outcome desired by the anti-abortion crowd; lots of negative publicity and some doctors tarred and feathered in the court of public opinion.
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Depending on conditions and response times, loading the patient and driving to the ED might be better than waiting for an ambulance. If you say have a 3 minute drive to the ED but a 10 minute wait for the ambulance it is not always a good idea to wait.
 
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