Why vegans are simply better people

[Skeptical Greg]

I see where you were confused. I was saying this in response to the suggestion that we should eat meat because it tastes good or better than vegan food. You maybe didn't read what I was responding to. In answer to that charge, I pointed out that we should not use that as a yardstick, since you could make the case that eating humans tastes good as well. Why would you not? Because you rightly realize there are other questions involved beyond how food tastes. Once you come to that point in your ethical development, you can better understand why vegans propose that eating be done in as ethical a way as possible.

Nowhere in what I just wrote did I say I was "better" than you. But the poster I was responding to didn't have a very good argument. Hopefully now you'll better understand my point.

I accept your explanation, and apologize for reading more into your comments than you intended.

 

[Johny2x4]

Veganism is a step towards addressing and alleviating these issues in one very real, everyday way ... by more wisely choosing what we put in our mouths and subsist on. It doesn't make vegans saints or meat-eaters sinners. Nobody is asking you to don a sackcloth and hobble yourself with a pebble in your shoe.

I really don´t think that line would fly in several nations.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

...
But it would be refreshing to see a few people acknowledge reality.

That would sure be a nice change of pace.

Shall we go into the reality of the exploitation of farm workers, and how that might impact the ethics of vegans ?

 

[citizenzen]

Unfortunately no, not always. Some of the grazing land for cattle simple can't be used for anything else.

Some of you folks were complaining about how farms used up too much land, but now you're trying to make a point that some land that could be left natural is only suitable for grazing and not farming.

I'm confused. Do you want to leave as much land natural or not? You are, after all the stickler for consistency.

 

[citizenzen]

Shall we go into the reality of the exploitation of farm workers, and how that might impact the ethics of vegans ?

You could. But again, the meat-eaters exploit both the farm workers and those who produce meat.

Once again that word "and" pops up.

 

[Johny2x4]

Some of you folks were complaining about how farms used up too much land, but now you're trying to make a point that some land that could be left natural is only suitable for grazing and not farming.

I'm confused. Do you want to leave as much land natural or not? You are, after all the stickler for consistency.

Whatever keeps the cows well fed to make the meat. After all this:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Cozido_a_portuguesa_1.JPG

Is a great combo of meat, witch also happens to be a long and standing tradition of Portuguese cooking (with Jewish roots too).

 

[Furcifer]

Some of you folks were complaining about how farms used up too much land, but now you're trying to make a point that some land that could be left natural is only suitable for grazing and not farming.

I'm confused. Do you want to leave as much land natural or not? You are, after all the stickler for consistency.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. I don't know what percentage of cattle grazing land is "untouched" but there are considerable expanses in the US and Canada (may as well throw AU in there) that can't be used for anything else.(there are places where goats graze that only eagles dare fly) It's what we would call "low impact" farming and certainly is less intrusive than wheat or corn fields. So if YOU want to go "natural" that's up to you. You can gather, I'll hunt.

 

[sgtbaker]

Depends on what's in it Obviously egg noodle type pastas aren't vegan, a lot of frozen pastas contain milk or eggs. Most boxed pasta are flour and water, usually plain old durum wheat, semolina flour, or whole wheat, they're almost always vegan. Rice noodles, udon, and soba noodles are usually vegan, but check the packaging if you're buying the pre-cooked stuff, of course.

I've never actually made fresh pasta, I've just always assumed that pasta had egg in it.

I tell people I don't eat meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin, alcohol, or tobacco, and they're usual response is, "well what do eat". I tell them sticks and pinecones. And you know what, most of them believe me for a second.

My dad still thinks I'm a "picky eater."

No wonder you think tobacco is gross, you've been doing it all wrong.

 

[citizenzen]

You can gather, I'll hunt.

Cool. I'll gather my veggies in the produce section. You can hunt for good deals at the meat counter.

 

[qayak]

Re: Evolution as selecting for survival/replication rather than truth:


This is where you isolate a good argument, but say it's not good because it fails to accomplish something it sought. The observation that evolution selects for survival and replication is brought up to counter "eating meat" is natural argument. If you look elsewhere in this thread, you will find arguments for veganism.

The arguments for veganism don't sway me, especially when they are put alongside the drawbacks to it. They didn't impress me when my step-daughter made them, or when her friends repeated them and they don't impress me now.

By the way, their veganism didn't last long although most of them are vegetarian now . . . well, if you can eat fish and still be vegetarian.

If our goal is to minimize suffering, then we should probably consider stopping the practice of raising animals for slaughter.

No. Our goal is to minimize suffering while still using them for food. As I said, there is nothing cruel about killing animals for food so stopping wouldn't be eliminating any suffering.

There are a lot of food practices that I don't agree with. As a result I don't buy the products they produce. I don't eat veal, shrimp caught in bottom drags, when eating out around Vancouver, or buying groceries, I look for the "OceanWise" http://www.oceanwise.ca/ label.

But cutting out meat entirely just doesn't make any sense to me what so ever.

 

[Furcifer]

Cool. I'll gather my veggies in the produce section. You can hunt for good deals at the meat counter.

That's evolution.

 

[Estellea]

Property destruction is intended to halt to harming animals. Targeting humans for harm -- clubbing someone in the face like a baby seal, clearly violates the principles of the ALF. A more serious argument is that for any actions gone wrong, the group can retroactively disclaim responsibility.

Many groups have done wrong for what they believe is the greater good; saying that doesn't bring anyone back to life. And ALF, ELF and SHAC have committed crimes against humans, not just property regardless of their "principles".

Suppose the people in our society suddenly achieved enlightenment agreed with me-- even you -- and we decided to halt the exploitation of animals, including animal experimentation. Would it be wrong to continue using drugs that were initially tested on animals? No. Is it necessarily hypocritical? No.

FTFY. This is a specious argument; all of these hypotheticals do not change the facts on the ground, which are animal testing is still being performed. Drug development is still using animal models and you, and your loved ones, are benefiting by using them.

Perhaps it requires a level of reasoning that beyond your grasp. Maybe the sort of person ready to cry "hypocrite" when a moral vegan says it's OK to cook and eat road-kill, or to go dumpster diving outside Mickey Ds.

No, it requires a suspension of disbelief that I am not willing to entertain.

Este

 

[citizenzen]

By the way, their veganism didn't last long although most of them are vegetarian now . . . well, if you can eat fish and still be vegetarian.

This is a pet peeve of mine. You can't (or shouldn't) call yourself a vegetarian if you eat fish, bacon, pepperoni, or whatever meat product you still haven't managed to get over craving.

I might as well call myself a vegan even though I still eat eggs and cheese.

Poseurs.

 

[citizenzen]

Many groups have done wrong for what they believe is the greater good; saying that doesn't bring anyone back to life.

Yes. Like republicans.*

I sure hope you aren't voting for them.

Because I wouldn't want to have to call you a hypocrite.




* or ...

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Some wines and beers use isinglass as an ingredient, thus rendering them unsuitable for vegans.

Pointless anecdote: one of my cousins is vegan and most of my family (including one of my children) are vegetarian. Most vegetables, fruits, quorn, soya, pulses and grains make my Crohn's disease worse, so vegetarian or vegan is not an option for me.

Agatha, I am lucky to have no such conditions. Please don't think I am being flippant when discussing food issues with those who do.

 

[Johny2x4]

Yes. Like republicans.*

I sure hope you aren't voting for them.

Because I wouldn't want to have to call you a hypocrite.




* or ...

What if you are European centrist?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

This is a pet peeve of mine. You can't (or shouldn't) call yourself a vegetarian if you eat fish, bacon, pepperoni, or whatever meat product you still haven't managed to get over craving.

I might as well call myself a vegan even though I still eat eggs and cheese.

Poseurs.

Why do you personally concern yourself with the labels others attribute to themselves?

 

[Estellea]

Yes. Like republicans.*

I sure hope you aren't voting for them.

Because I wouldn't want to have to call you a hypocrite.




* or ...

You do like to make suppositions don't you? I'm not republican and you could easily find my omnivorous children out and about noshing on fruit, veggies and nuts.

Este

 

[Kahalachan]

Don't be deliberately obtuse.

What did you just call me?

Son you are forgetting yourself.

 

[RandFan]

Once you come to that point in your ethical development, you can better understand why vegans propose that eating be done in as ethical a way as possible.

That I would agree with.