Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[smkovalinksy]

The PGP are busy piling onto Hellmann as one would expect, but they keep saying he had no criminal experience. I thought that he had had experience and that it included a high profile murder case. so I Googled...

From one of their most trusted sources, Andrea Vogt (where are they now?):
"The new judge assigned to Knox's case is no stranger to allegations of judicial error. In fact, he was one of three judges who, in 2000, overturned a controversial conviction in the stabbing murder of Cinzia Bruno, setting free a man who had been jailed for more than seven years.

Bruno's husband, Massimo Pisano, was convicted along with his lover in the stabbing death of Bruno, who was found in 1993 on the banks of the Tiber River, near Rome. He was sentenced to life in prison, a ruling upheld in all three phases of Italian court process, including the Supreme Court.

Then, a "revision" of the case by a three-man court of appeals panel, including Pratillo Hellman, freed Pisano after he had already served seven years, six months and 12 days behind bars.

The Bruno case is, of course, no indicator of how Pratillo Hellman might approach Knox's case. However, it shows a willingness to go against the judicial grain that is likely to please hopeful Knox supporters."

Perhaps someone could let them know.

Thanks for this. I had recalled reading similar, and was first perplexed, then annoyed, at their insistence that Hellmann was "only a civil judge". I could have sworn I had read somewhere on IIP or via Sfarzo that Hellmann had in fact gained a reputation with the Bruno case. Now, you have brought this home once again. Silly me, I had thought I had imagined the whole thing!(Oh, and do not worry about "letting them know". Nearly each time I post about the appeal here, it is copy/pasted and jeered at there, so they are reading here, to be sure. )

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

You may also wish to consult pp. 152-153 of the English translation of the Massei report: "In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine of Perugia, rather than with the value of 2.72. He [Professor Cingolani?] concluded on this point that that was no pharmacokinetic condition which could justify all three of these values, that is zero in the stomach, 2.72 in the blood and 0.2 in the liver. On the basis of these elements they had concluded that Meredith was not in a condition of alcoholic intoxication." I am not sure which value is most reliable. I recall looking into this a year and a half ago, and I recall thinking that the rate at which alcohol is cleared from the body is a little faster than I had imagined it to be.

The 2.72 number was the sample that was screwed up by, you guessed it, the police by putting it in a container that had alcohol in it or some such thing.

"He could not indicate why the analysis of the blood had given a particularly high value, ‚close to ethylic coma,‛ (page 108) other than in terms of a simple hypothesis: the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample, taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator"

I don't think there is any doubt that she had consumed alcohol that evening. However, it has never been explained as far as I can remember.

 

[smkovalinksy]

From PMF: "The 'unthinkable' thing is strange, because I wouldn't have thought such student-on-student crimes were unknown in the US (or elsewhere) at all. Lawyers will be better informed than me, but I'd think that if a female college student is killed in her college accommodation - that is, not out on the town, or at her parents' place, or away on holiday - the killer is quite likely to be a rival female college student in the same (or nearby) accommodation."

A rival female college student? Female students at colleges are all rivals with each other? Wow, just wow.

For the record, I will wager that when a female college student is murdered it most often is by a male, with the possible exception of a female only facility.

When I read the above over there, I was not sure they could even be serious.

I immediately thought about the case of Laura Dickinson- She was a student at the University of East Michigan. Just before Christmas 2006, she was found raped and murdered in her dorm room. NOT a rival college girl, but a young African American male who had thought the room was empty, and was robbing it, (sorry if pmf finds this "racist", but these, alas, are the facts)happened upon the sleeping girl. (the parallels to the Kercher case should be noted.)

The rest is history. (Oh, and in Guede-like fashion, Orange Taylor III swore to the end that he had not done it. The judge sentenced him to life in prison. Lucky Rudy, huh? )

http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2008/05/judges_sentences_orange_taylor.html

When the case broke, a mother of a college girl who had met the exact same fate in the early '80s spoke out about the need for campus safety. Name one case where "a rival college girl" killed her dorm mate, please someone??? Now, if you are killed in your dorm, it must have been your rivalrous female room mate? Desperation, much?

 

[smkovalinksy]

And let us not forget these college girls who were not attacked by a "rival college female", but by Ted Bundy:

Sometime during the evening of January 14 or the early hours of January 15, 1978—one week after his arrival in Tallahassee—Bundy entered FSU's Chi Omega sorority house through a rear door with a faulty lock.[169]

Beginning at about 2:45am he bludgeoned Margaret Bowman, 21, with a piece of oak firewood as she slept, then garroted her with a nylon stocking.[170] He then entered the bedroom of 20-year-old Lisa Levy and beat her unconscious, strangled her, tore one of her nipples, bit deeply into her left buttock, and sexually assaulted her with a hair mist bottle.[171] In an adjoining bedroom he attacked Kathy Kleiner, who suffered a broken jaw and deep shoulder lacerations; and Karen Chandler, who suffered a concussion, broken jaw, loss of teeth, and a crushed finger.[172]

Tallahassee detectives later determined that all four attacks took place in less than 15 minutes, within earshot of more than 30 witnesses who heard nothing.[169] After leaving the sorority house Bundy broke into an apartment building eight blocks away and attacked FSU student Cheryl Thomas, dislocating her shoulder and fracturing her jaw and skull in five places.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ok - I was wrong. There are 5 things in the PG arsenal. I am not big enought to admit a mistake.

Females kill females on college campuses. I wish I had something more clever to add, than "wow, just wow." But I'm all out of statements of incredulity.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the data points are disparate

The 2.72 number was the sample that was screwed up by, you guessed it, the police by putting it in a container that had alcohol in it or some such thing.

"He could not indicate why the analysis of the blood had given a particularly high value, ‚close to ethylic coma,‛ (page 108) other than in terms of a simple hypothesis: the exchange of samples; a contamination with the passage of alcohol to the sample, taking place when the exhibit was in the refrigerator"

I don't think there is any doubt that she had consumed alcohol that evening. However, it has never been explained as far as I can remember.

Grinder,

I am not at all certain that she did, given the zero alcohol content in her stomach. The determination of alcohol is on the edge of my professional experience, but I have a friend in the profession. Let me touch base and get back to you.

 

[Grinder]

One example of female killing female is the Trang Ho case described over at PMF as caused by jealousy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinedu_Tadesse

Now I'm sure that some Ethiopian PR company has rearranged the facts but the story is that the murderer Sinedu Tadesse had been losing it for some time and that the trigger was that Trang didn't want her as a roommate. This was contested by Sinedu's family as they said Sinedu didn't want to room with her because she went home to her family often leaving Sinedu alone in the dorm.

In other news a PG person wants the news media (steely-eyed reporter) to track down JOH the commenter that said Amanda had pranked someone at the UW. Perhaps Sharon Feinstein can track him down.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/amanda_knoxs_fiction

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

search for JOH and you too can read his comments

He says she broke into her apartment to prank the roommates - does anybody know if she ever lived in an apartment?

 

[smkovalinksy]

One example of female killing female is the Trang Ho case described over at PMF as caused by jealousy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinedu_Tadesse

Now I'm sure that some Ethiopian PR company has rearranged the facts but the story is that the murderer Sinedu Tadesse had been losing it for some time and that the trigger was that Trang didn't want her as a roommate. This was contested by Sinedu's family as they said Sinedu didn't want to room with her because she went home to her family often leaving Sinedu alone in the dorm.

In other news a PG person wants the news media (steely-eyed reporter) to track down JOH the commenter that said Amanda had pranked someone at the UW. Perhaps Sharon Feinstein can track him down.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/amanda_knoxs_fiction

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

search for JOH and you too can read his comments

He says she broke into her apartment to prank the roommates - does anybody know if she ever lived in an apartment?

Yes, I read the book on that case up at Harvard, but it was quite different in its details from the Kercher/Knox scenario:

http://www.amazon.com/Halfway-Heaven-Melanie-Thernstrom/dp/0385487452

Here is a case in which, if one has a certain view of Knox and takes certain liberties, parallels may be drawn:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/21/48hours/main3734408.shtml

*In fairness to those at PMF, there is also the Bernadette Protti/Kirsten Costas case ( one high school girl knifed her "rival"). Viewing the situation somewhat liberally, I must admit, it is not impossible for a female to knife a "rival", and for Knox to have been one of those females. But this is giving psychological theory supremacy over evidence.

I do not know if Knox ever "pranked" a roommate. I would assume, if I wanted to view her as guilty, that a prank would be unlikely as a motive or a catalyst: the closest scenario to my thinking would be a mix of Bernadette Protti (rebuffed by a friend, with some lesbian overtones) and the Laura Hall case (caught up with an insane boyfriend , father issues, and a female rival). So I may have spoken too soon on the unlikelihood of the female on female murder/sex murder scenario.

But this is why Hellmann was supposed to take an objective and fresh view of the evidence, isn't it?

 

[smkovalinksy]

One example of female killing female is the Trang Ho case described over at PMF as caused by jealousy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinedu_Tadesse

Now I'm sure that some Ethiopian PR company has rearranged the facts but the story is that the murderer Sinedu Tadesse had been losing it for some time and that the trigger was that Trang didn't want her as a roommate. This was contested by Sinedu's family as they said Sinedu didn't want to room with her because she went home to her family often leaving Sinedu alone in the dorm.

In other news a PG person wants the news media (steely-eyed reporter) to track down JOH the commenter that said Amanda had pranked someone at the UW. Perhaps Sharon Feinstein can track him down.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/amanda_knoxs_fiction

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

search for JOH and you too can read his comments

He says she broke into her apartment to prank the roommates - does anybody know if she ever lived in an apartment?

I find the comments on slog the stranger to be rather disturbing. I do not think I would trust anything said there. I know many PGP have the "hazing prank" theory, but its origins are dubious at best.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Was this ever corroborated? If not, seems just a silly exaggeration.

Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and *********** nuts.
Posted by Joh | December 2, 2007 2:50 PM

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

 

[codyjuneau]

Anglolawyer:

I will agree with you that at some point Rudy became aware of Meredith's arrival. Apparently Rudy left soiled toilet paper in the unflushed toilet so I will deduce that it was when he became aware someone had entered the cottage he aborted his crap and wiped himself (top that one Agatha Christie!).

I think Rudy's alibi mentioned hearing an English voice saying 'anybody home' or some such thing while he was sitting on the toilet? He said this to try and implicate Amanda but maybe he was once again borrowing from the truth and actually heard Meredith say this when she arrived home. This is something Meredith might say upon seeing the kitchen light turned on and thinking one of the other girls had returned to the cottage.

The knife I surmise Meredith grabbing for her defense would be one of the many kitchen knives available. Probably one drying beside the kitchen sink.

I think I recall RandyN saying the defense had asked for an analysis of something in the kitchen or hallway in case it was blood. RandyN?

I agree the altercation in the kitchen/hallway was minimal. So lets alter things slightly. Meredith cuts Rudy's hand in the kitchen but then retreats with the kitchen knife to the bedroom. I see Meredith doing more of a defensive slash with the knife than actually wanting to hurt Rudy. However if Rudy had just come out of the laundry room when Meredith slashed at him he might instinctively try to block the blow with his hand before he had time to realize Meredith was holding a knife in that hand. This could have been the trigger that escalated Rudy from a cat burglar to an enraged and temporarily insane murderer. This girl that he had liked and he thought/hoped fancied him had physically assaulted him. A destroyed male ego can cause irrational, violent and regrettable results.

So after cutting Rudy's hand, Meredith sees the rage in his eyes and retreats with the kitchen knife to her bedroom. Rudy catches up with her in the bedroom over by the bed and the battle begins. He overpowers her and takes control of the knife, possibly cuts her, she tries to escape by going around Rudy but he tackles and stabs her. I do not have an explanation for the smear of Meredith's blood on the floor partly under the bed. I would surmise it was made after the murder. Do you have an explanation for it?

In my opinion the bloody finger streaks on the wall were made by someone with a large hand and fingers. It would be interesting to get measurements of them and try a match with Rudy or Meredith's hands (another bathmat footprint identification war?)

Sorry if I did not answer every point you made. I tried interspersing my answers in your response but it was too difficult for me to format it in an understandable way. Some of your points are also answered in my response to LondonJohn.

LondonJohn

Yes I am proposing that Rudy murdered Meredith with the same kitchen knife she grabbed to defend herself with. And that Rudy took the knife with him when he fled.

I agree that Meredith grabbing a knife is an aggressive move. But consider her situation. She suddenly realizes there is unauthorized half naked man in her cottage and that she cannot escape by the front door without first retrieving her keys which are in the bedroom. And if Rudy's alibi is based on partial truths then he came out of the laundry room into the kitchen/hallway with his pants still not pulled all the way up. Under the circumstances grabbing a knife for defense seems a reasonable response. As I replied to Anglo above I don't think she intended to hurt Rudy, Just deter him. But what a pickle. Neither her nor he could escape out the front door.

I do not know if anyone ever did an inventory of the knives in the kitchen to see if one was missing. I have read the police did not test any of the many knives that were in the kitchen which implies they did not consider the possibility. The other girls never returned to the cottage so unless specifically asked they would not know if any knives were missing. Would the landlord even care about the cutlery inventory by the time he got possession of the cottage again?

I am trying to understand why Rudy formulated his alibi the way he did. He is of course trying to provide an innocent explanation for himself, but in a way that will be consistent with other evidence that might be discovered later on.

Why did he explain the cuts on his hand as coming from a struggle in the hallway? He could have just said that he was not cut that night. But what if the police then found his blood at the crime scene? Or he could have said that he was cut in Meredith's bedroom while trying to save her. But what if the police find evidence he was cut in the kitchen or hallway? I think Rudy knew his best bet was to stay as close to the truth as possible.

I am also attempting to explain why Rudy became so violent. He had been caught burglarizing before without any serious consequences so it is difficult for me to understand why he would kill Meredith unless something extraordinary happened.

I also recall Rudy saying something about Meredith trying to tell him something in her dying breath and he tried to write it on the wall. Was this Rudy's attempt to explain the bloody fingers streak marks that at that time had not been checked for DNA? Those streaks were later checked for DNA during the second forensics investigation but were apparently mishandled (suspiciously like so many other crucial pieces of evidence) and no persons were identified from them.

Dan O.

Are you talking about a friction cut from the bra strap? Did they find Rudy's blood on the strap?

 

[Kaosium]

In other news a PG person wants the news media (steely-eyed reporter) to track down JOH the commenter that said Amanda had pranked someone at the UW. Perhaps Sharon Feinstein can track him down.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/amanda_knoxs_fiction

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

search for JOH and you too can read his comments

He says she broke into her apartment to prank the roommates - does anybody know if she ever lived in an apartment?

Huh, I thought the Cheshire Cat had Joh's contact, as they spoke through e-mail and it was 'confirmed.' I suppose it might have changed in the past few years.

It is funny that this¹ comment somehow launched a thousand 'motive' theories, all off some anonymous dude in the comments section of a crank commentator. It's also curious that it goes from an 'April Fool's joke' to a rape prank in those scenarios, when Joh mentions nothing about any 'rape.' What, did they have dildos on their foreheads? They come in with unzipped pants?

As for your question about the apartment, was that where she was staying before she left? It would almost have to be, Amanda was a newly-minted twenty year-old when she left for Europe, she couldn't have had that many places between then and when she left the nest. Was that a house she was renting for the party maybe? Not exactly an apartment, but around here for student housing many 'apartments' are really big old houses that have been split into four-eight accommodations, so they can both be used interchangeably.

¹

Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and ******* nuts.

 

[LondonJohn]

In other news a PG person wants the news media (steely-eyed reporter) to track down JOH the commenter that said Amanda had pranked someone at the UW. Perhaps Sharon Feinstein can track him down.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/amanda_knoxs_fiction

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

search for JOH and you too can read his comments

He says she broke into her apartment to prank the roommates - does anybody know if she ever lived in an apartment?

I would have to provisionally concluded that this story has no substance, for two main reasons:

1) There was an intense amount of media attention given to the case in the months after the murder (particularly amongst the UK press, which sent teams out to Seattle to dig for "background" on Knox). I would have thought it fairly unlikely that either a) someone in the media hadn't seen this comment and had at least attempted to seek out its author for verification, or b) the author himself would have contacted the media, which would have paid significant money for a story like that - particularly the UK press, who were basking in the luxury of no sub-judice ban on such reporting (since the judicial process was happening in Italy and not the UK) and who have notoriously large chequebooks for salacious stuff like that.

2) I am not entirely sure what the Italian rules are on "similar fact" evidence, but I should imagine that they are either very relaxed or non-existent, since Mignini went so far as to refer to Knox's party noise-and-rock-throwing ticket in the trial. Therefore, an alleged previous "rape prank" incident instigated by Knox might have been extremely germane to the prosecution case. Given that this incident was never presented in court, one can only suppose three possibilities: a) prosecutors never even found out about the online comment; b) prosecutors knew of the existence of this comment, but either chose not to pursue it or attempted to pursue it without being able to find the author; c) prosecutors found the author, who admitted that the story was false once he was told that he was to be listed as a prosecution witness.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I would have to provisionally concluded that this story has no substance, for two main reasons:

1) There was an intense amount of media attention given to the case in the months after the murder (particularly amongst the UK press, which sent teams out to Seattle to dig for "background" on Knox). I would have thought it fairly unlikely that either a) someone in the media hadn't seen this comment and had at least attempted to seek out its author for verification, or b) the author himself would have contacted the media, which would have paid significant money for a story like that - particularly the UK press, who were basking in the luxury of no sub-judice ban on such reporting (since the judicial process was happening in Italy and not the UK) and who have notoriously large chequebooks for salacious stuff like that.

2) I am not entirely sure what the Italian rules are on "similar fact" evidence, but I should imagine that they are either very relaxed or non-existent, since Mignini went so far as to refer to Knox's party noise-and-rock-throwing ticket in the trial. Therefore, an alleged previous "rape prank" incident instigated by Knox might have been extremely germane to the prosecution case. Given that this incident was never presented in court, one can only suppose three possibilities: a) prosecutors never even found out about the online comment; b) prosecutors knew of the existence of this comment, but either chose not to pursue it or attempted to pursue it without being able to find the author; c) prosecutors found the author, who admitted that the story was false once he was told that he was to be listed as a prosecution witness.

I think all you say here has to be correct, because as stated the monetary value of such a story would be enormous, and it would have boosted the prosecution's case considerably. Thus, it has to be false, since it never was utilized in either manner.

In any case, the theory can always be switched to an argument-with-a-rival-turned deadly, or a sexual paraphilia story, or a row over stolen rent money, or any other over-arching theme of murder; which is why the actual evidence is so important in determining guilt or innocence.

I had actually thought that this is what the appeal's main purpose was: to get away from theorizing and speculation, and to let the evidence speak loudly, but apparently for the PGP, it is not so.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Anglolawyer:

I will agree with you that at some point Rudy became aware of Meredith's arrival. Apparently Rudy left soiled toilet paper in the unflushed toilet so I will deduce that it was when he became aware someone had entered the cottage he aborted his crap and wiped himself (top that one Agatha Christie!).

I think Rudy's alibi mentioned hearing an English voice saying 'anybody home' or some such thing while he was sitting on the toilet? He said this to try and implicate Amanda but maybe he was once again borrowing from the truth and actually heard Meredith say this when she arrived home. This is something Meredith might say upon seeing the kitchen light turned on and thinking one of the other girls had returned to the cottage.

The knife I surmise Meredith grabbing for her defense would be one of the many kitchen knives available. Probably one drying beside the kitchen sink.

I think I recall RandyN saying the defense had asked for an analysis of something in the kitchen or hallway in case it was blood. RandyN?

I agree the altercation in the kitchen/hallway was minimal. So lets alter things slightly. Meredith cuts Rudy's hand in the kitchen but then retreats with the kitchen knife to the bedroom. I see Meredith doing more of a defensive slash with the knife than actually wanting to hurt Rudy. However if Rudy had just come out of the laundry room when Meredith slashed at him he might instinctively try to block the blow with his hand before he had time to realize Meredith was holding a knife in that hand. This could have been the trigger that escalated Rudy from a cat burglar to an enraged and temporarily insane murderer. This girl that he had liked and he thought/hoped fancied him had physically assaulted him. A destroyed male ego can cause irrational, violent and regrettable results.

So after cutting Rudy's hand, Meredith sees the rage in his eyes and retreats with the kitchen knife to her bedroom. Rudy catches up with her in the bedroom over by the bed and the battle begins. He overpowers her and takes control of the knife, possibly cuts her, she tries to escape by going around Rudy but he tackles and stabs her. I do not have an explanation for the smear of Meredith's blood on the floor partly under the bed. I would surmise it was made after the murder. Do you have an explanation for it?

In my opinion the bloody finger streaks on the wall were made by someone with a large hand and fingers. It would be interesting to get measurements of them and try a match with Rudy or Meredith's hands (another bathmat footprint identification war?)

Sorry if I did not answer every point you made. I tried interspersing my answers in your response but it was too difficult for me to format it in an understandable way. Some of your points are also answered in my response to LondonJohn.

LondonJohn

Yes I am proposing that Rudy murdered Meredith with the same kitchen knife she grabbed to defend herself with. And that Rudy took the knife with him when he fled.

I agree that Meredith grabbing a knife is an aggressive move. But consider her situation. She suddenly realizes there is unauthorized half naked man in her cottage and that she cannot escape by the front door without first retrieving her keys which are in the bedroom. And if Rudy's alibi is based on partial truths then he came out of the laundry room into the kitchen/hallway with his pants still not pulled all the way up. Under the circumstances grabbing a knife for defense seems a reasonable response. As I replied to Anglo above I don't think she intended to hurt Rudy, Just deter him. But what a pickle. Neither her nor he could escape out the front door.

I do not know if anyone ever did an inventory of the knives in the kitchen to see if one was missing. I have read the police did not test any of the many knives that were in the kitchen which implies they did not consider the possibility. The other girls never returned to the cottage so unless specifically asked they would not know if any knives were missing. Would the landlord even care about the cutlery inventory by the time he got possession of the cottage again?

I am trying to understand why Rudy formulated his alibi the way he did. He is of course trying to provide an innocent explanation for himself, but in a way that will be consistent with other evidence that might be discovered later on.

Why did he explain the cuts on his hand as coming from a struggle in the hallway? He could have just said that he was not cut that night. But what if the police then found his blood at the crime scene? Or he could have said that he was cut in Meredith's bedroom while trying to save her. But what if the police find evidence he was cut in the kitchen or hallway? I think Rudy knew his best bet was to stay as close to the truth as possible.

I am also attempting to explain why Rudy became so violent. He had been caught burglarizing before without any serious consequences so it is difficult for me to understand why he would kill Meredith unless something extraordinary happened.

I also recall Rudy saying something about Meredith trying to tell him something in her dying breath and he tried to write it on the wall. Was this Rudy's attempt to explain the bloody fingers streak marks that at that time had not been checked for DNA? Those streaks were later checked for DNA during the second forensics investigation but were apparently mishandled (suspiciously like so many other crucial pieces of evidence) and no persons were identified from them.

Dan O.

Are you talking about a friction cut from the bra strap? Did they find Rudy's blood on the strap?

This is all very interesting and coherent, and it is true that often phrases told during a false statement will echo, slightly transposed, phrases that were actually said, or said by some other party ( calls to mind the case of Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, who killed his wife and children, and claimed it was a group of hippie assailants. He claimed his wife kept saying, "Why are they doing this to me?", and the prosecutor pointed out how close this is to, "Why are YOU doing this to me?". - so with the "Anybody home?"---likely was said by Meredith herself. This is very believable.)

 

[Bill Williams]

Was this ever corroborated? If not, seems just a silly exaggeration.

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair

I am starting to see why PGP accuse Knox of having a constantly changing alibi, in other words why they think she lied early on. Call me a slow learner.

But when one follows the information flow between Nov 1 to Dec 1, 2007, one can also see that the accusations of lies told by Knox or Sollecito is pure bollocks.

Right from the Nov 6 interrogations, both Knox and Sollecito were kept in solitary, deprived of lawyers until the moment of their first hearing, ie. deprived of all contact with the outside world, including to each other.

I did not know that until yesterday - that K and S were denied lawyers by the police until the moment of their first hearing!

The police meant this as a strategy so that Knox and Sollecito could not check out each other's stories. The police meant this as making K and S totally dependant on what police were telling them. If you are dealing with obviously guilty people, this is probably a good police strategy.

Yet, Knox and Sollecito are anything but guilty, unless you use the results of assuming them guilty to butress the claim. More specifically, unless you accept the claim of their "lies", such "lies" which came only from being isolated from each other, and more importantly isolated from everything but one source of info.

Think about it. The ONLY thing either knew about the other was what police were telling them. Knox probably thought Sollecito was lying about his supposed statement that she could not have been at his place all night, "because if you're asleep, how do you know someone else didn't slip out?" She thought he was lying because that's what she was told.

So without being able to check with Raffaele or a lawyer, this is all Knox knew - she thought he was suddenly lying, when the origin of the lie is the police not Raffaele.

Similarly, addressing the link above. The Stranger News and Blog now runs with a story that it is now Knox suddenly changing her story. I mean, if the idea is to isolate Knox and Sollecito, what the hell is the media doing reporting on Dec 1, 2007, about their alibis unless the police, who control ALL information, are the ones leaking info?

Follow the control of info!

So for all Knox knew, since she, too, was asleep at Raffaele's, how'd she know it was not him who slipped out when she was asleep? This is a classic game of police playing off witnesses against each other using logical tricks, not evidence.

Yet by Dec 1, 2007, the public is now being told that both Sollecito and Knox are lying, alibi-switchers. The Police control ALL information on this, including what Knox, Sollecito, and the public know, and the perception of them as liars.

I suddenly feel some sympathy for the PGP who cling to this meme of Knox being a lying alibi switcher. That claim is the constant complaint of PGP, even when evidence of their obvious innocence is presented. That claim is why even when the DNA is debunked, PGP say, "What about the totality of the other evidence? What about the lies?"

Yet now, four years later, when their innocence is simply beyond question and beyond debate - save for a bathmat and Hamburger Helper - there are some who still see them as lying alibi switchers, even if they did not need an alibi, and did no harm at all to Kercher.

I know I am late to this discovery, some seem to have smelled this out from the git-go. But it is suddenly becoming obvious the police role in this travesty - a travesty mainly to the Kerchers who'd similarly been lied to by police about the events leading to the death of their daughter/sister.

Follow the information - who knew what, and when did they know it? Do a flow-chart of information on a piece of grid paper.

Knox is no more a liar than you would be if I told you had just had a car accident, then you tell someone else that I'd had a car accident, then you find out I didn't have a car accident, and then the "someone" you told calls you a liar for passing on the info.

When the PGP deal with this reality, they can get a lot of hate off their souls.

 

[Grinder]

Huh, I thought the Cheshire Cat had Joh's contact, as they spoke through e-mail and it was 'confirmed.' I suppose it might have changed in the past few years.

It is funny that this¹ comment somehow launched a thousand 'motive' theories, all off some anonymous dude in the comments section of a crank commentator. It's also curious that it goes from an 'April Fool's joke' to a rape prank in those scenarios, when Joh mentions nothing about any 'rape.' What, did they have dildos on their foreheads? They come in with unzipped pants?

As for your question about the apartment, was that where she was staying before she left? It would almost have to be, Amanda was a newly-minted twenty year-old when she left for Europe, she couldn't have had that many places between then and when she left the nest. Was that a house she was renting for the party maybe? Not exactly an apartment, but around here for student housing many 'apartments' are really big old houses that have been split into four-eight accommodations, so they can both be used interchangeably.
¹

The house is a house not apartments.

I'm not sure who the Cheshire Cat is but if you mean the Queen Shrew ("thanks for stopping by, you're BANNED) then yes she had said she contacted him - his My Space page is still there and linked to the comments. IIRC he was a video fantasy game player. She reported that he confirmed that what he said was true but no one wanted to go public. I'm guessing that he got the call and was scared/bought off. He had heard this story from someone that had heard the story - perhaps SA can comment on why this isn't hearsay.

But the spouse of a lawyer or paralegal over there suggested that this would make for a great investigative story. Like I said before, this is a job for the ace reporter Sharon Feinstein - she could also find the barista Amanda worked with that gave Mudede (he claims) the your people quote. Perhaps she could interview all roommates and cellmates Amanda has ever had and write a coffee table book.

The Slog post Joh commented on was wriitten by Mudede.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O.

Are you talking about a friction cut from the bra strap? Did they find Rudy's blood on the strap?

Look at Rudy's hand and you will see no cut. There is only a superficial scaring of the surface consistent with a friction burn caused by a strap being pulled through his hand. There was no blood of rudy's found anywhere. Only his DNA was found. Rudy's DNA was found on the bra. The bra was torn apart (note, it was not cut) consistent with someone grabbing it at the location where the DNA was found and pulling causing the stiching holding the top strap to the back brand to peal off all the way down to the clasp and this would also pull the stitching holding the clasp itself to the band. When the clasp is released from the band, the sudden imbalance in force on the two sides of the band being held will cause the band to pull through the hand leaving the friction burns.

 

[Fine]

Huh, I thought the Cheshire Cat had Joh's contact, as they spoke through e-mail and it was 'confirmed.' I suppose it might have changed in the past few years.

It is funny that this¹ comment somehow launched a thousand 'motive' theories, all off some anonymous dude in the comments section of a crank commentator. It's also curious that it goes from an 'April Fool's joke' to a rape prank in those scenarios, when Joh mentions nothing about any 'rape.' What, did they have dildos on their foreheads? They come in with unzipped pants?

As for your question about the apartment, was that where she was staying before she left? It would almost have to be, Amanda was a newly-minted twenty year-old when she left for Europe, she couldn't have had that many places between then and when she left the nest. Was that a house she was renting for the party maybe? Not exactly an apartment, but around here for student housing many 'apartments' are really big old houses that have been split into four-eight accommodations, so they can both be used interchangeably.

¹

_____________________

Kaosium,

Amanda never lived in an apartment prior to leaving Seattle for Perugia.

She lived at home during high school.

During her freshman year at the University of Washington, 2005-2006, she lived in a dormitory room, in Terry Hall, just west of the campus. See: HERE.

During her sophomore year, 2006-2007, she shared a house with friends on 17th Ave. N.E., a few blocks north of campus. See: HERE.

///

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

I am not at all certain that she did, given the zero alcohol content in her stomach. The determination of alcohol is on the edge of my professional experience, but I have a friend in the profession. Let me touch base and get back to you.

Alcohol passes out of the stomach relatively quickly.

The Massei report clearly indicates that there is some alcohol in her system.

"He indicated the percentage of alcohol detected by Dr. Lalli and equal to 0.43 as compatible with the consumption of one beer or of one glass of wine. That there was then found to be zero in the gastric content could be explained by the fact of evaporation or by the fact of the digestion of the alcohol"
....

A value substantially of zero had been found in the gastric content and, he stressed, ‚in the gastric content the quantity of alcohol is frighteningly greater than in the blood‛ (page 106). In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine...

It is fascinating that wondering where, when and what she drank is somehow of a different nature than doing the same thing for the mushroom. Since the alcohol didn't show up in the stomach, that would possibly indicate that she wasn't killed right after consuming.