Why vegans are simply better people

[Dessi]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

I really dislike soymilk, except for baking. I almost always buy almond milk, maybe rice milk once in a blue moon, its so much more palatable.

But usually, I really love the food I eat I take a food vacation every year to Chicago, where I meet up with a friend who is a vegetarian, she knows where all the best mainstream and hole in the wall places for veggie Chicago. There's a couple of these great vegan diners on Halsted street, there's a chain of 3 or 4 ethiopian restaurants side by side with one another, we went to this amazing vegan Korean restaurant, WOW. Mouthgasm and a half. I sampled some food by the Loving Hut in the 2011 Taste of Chicago, I was floored, I'm going back to Chicago just to eat at the Loving Hut, for totallyz.

I don't like to cook, so most meals I eat are whatever I can throw together. I like pita bread with veganaise, spinach, lettuce, yellow peppers, maybe tomatoes and cucumbers if I have them, a small bit of balsalmic vinegar, other stuff that makes a nice sammich. Healthy, filling too.

I made these cherry tomato tapenade as hor dourves for a little get together. They were a big hit, had a perfect balance of olivey kick, very nums.

I like to make a lot of pasta. Lately I've been experimenting with different kinds, not just eating canned sauce all the time. I've been enjoying some really simple pastas, with nice chopped up tomato and red pepper, seasoned with oil and fresh basil. Not too bad. Last week I got these jumbo pasta shells, stuffed with a tablespoon of tofu ricotta and fake ground beef since I was serving to non-vegans, slathered nicely in marinara sauce, the result was incredible.

I bought a juicer, I can't tell you how much I like juicing I've had enough salads to be sick of them for the next 12 lifetimes, so I end up eating more breads and pastas than other kinds of food. I bought my juicer so I could work more veggies and fruits into my diet. When I have a nice glass of apple + orange + carrot + celery juice in the morning, I have the energy to benchpress a buick all day.

Pizzas rock! Sometimes I buy the Amy's No Cheese Pizza, other times I'll order pizza from the vegan friendly pizza place in Omaha, sometimes I make it at home. Artichoke on pizza, I can't tell you how much I love artichoke

I go through spells where I end up eating the same thing over and over for a few days or weeks when I'm feeling lazy, followed by spurts where I want to make something new everyday.

Believe it or not, Omaha has unreasonably good Indian, Thai, and Vietnamese food, and they're always so polite and accommodating for people with special dietary needs.

I'll do fake meat once in a while, like veggie dogs or veggie ground beef. They're... really not that good. Most of the time, if I want something I can put on a bun or eat with a steakknife, I'll make falafel, make these nice yummy chickpea cutlets, sometimes I make homemade seitan. Seitan is actually pretty fun, it starts out as small balls of wheat gluten dough, you simmer it in veggie broth for about an hour, the dough expands with the appearance, taste, and texture of baby brains. You can do a lot with seitan, throw it in stir fry, put it in salad, eat it with barbecue sauce and mashed potatoes. Last year, for the super bowl, I made some seitan, cut it into strips, rolled it in chili powder and bread crumbs, fried it oil and slathered in tobasco, it was a big hit.

I don't generally do a lot with rice, I don't remember the last time I used it for anything other than occasional stir fry or spanish rice for tacos.

I have a few favorite cookbooks, Vegan with a Vengeance, Veganomicon, and Color Me Vegan which I've been using a lot lately I also like Vegweb.com when I have miscellaneous cans of stuff, and I have no idea what to make with them.

I really like the Color Me Vegan book because there are lots of great soup ideas, recipes require a lot of less oil and frying than my other books. The Veganomicon book has some fantastic recipes for cakes, brownies, cookies, and other unhealthy things for special occasions.

Mostly I'd say my diet is high carb, low fat. Somehow I'm not a fat vegan. Still, I'm trying to avoid too many fried foods like falafels, hash browns, and stir fries, and trying to keep toward lighter things like soups, colorful spinach salads, sammiches.

So yeah, I really do like the food I eat I haven't used enough smilies in this post.

 

[sgtbaker]

I'm no longer a vegan but I still use all my old recipes and tricks, like black bean burgers or over-ripe avocado in place of butter in carrot cake. The only thing I ever missed as a vegan was cheese and butter. There's something about those specific fats that is impossible to replace.

A proper vegan diet is a little more involved than your standard meat-starch-side dish. If you enjoy cooking, every meal becomes happy science project time. There's a lot more experimenting with grains, trying new techniques, replacing this with that, swapping recipes. Since you're already putting in some effort, making it tasty is pretty easy.

Must admit, when I was a vegan, this question always cracked me up. So many people, no matter what diet, just eat the nearest, easiest thing. It's not always delicious. It's not like the carnivores are sitting down to a perfectly grilled steak every night.

I wasn't asking to say open up an attack on what vegans eat. My experience is limited and I figure, here's a thread with quite a few vegans participating, it's a good opportunity to ask a question. Like I said, I know one vegan, in real life. He loves the foods he eats. The OPer came back and said that he/she loves the foods he/she eats. The one person I know that attempted to go vegan but decided to go back to an omnivorous diet, did so because of the foods she was missing. At this point, I think a lot has to do with comfort level.

A noble gesture is a noble gesture. I don't think a vegan liking their diet takes anything away from the changes they decided to make for a cause. Naturally, though, my whole perception would change if you showed me a vegan that destest the foods they eat.

 

[citizenzen]

As far as your post is concerned, you assume that the boy's father/family is vegan, you assume he doesn't also eat meat, you assume that his apparent love for cabbage is ingrained in him rather than natural, you assume that he is going to rebel against whatever diet you assume he currently has.

My god, the nitpicking in this thread is astounding. The Dessi Principal* is at work in full force here.

I made a casual observation. I saw a 10 year-old boy snacking on a whole cabbage leaf in a natural foods store. I didn't say that I knew his diet, or the diet of his family. I didn't say whether his love of cabbage was "ingrained" or "natural". I joked (and people think it's vegans who can't take a joke) that he was going to rebel against father by eating hamburgers.

It would seem to me that you're pointing out assumptions that I've made while making just as many, if not more assumptions yourself.

Or did you not notice?





*Some people cannot discuss this issue without flying off the handle.

 

[sgtbaker]

I like to make a lot of pasta. Lately I've been experimenting with different kinds, not just eating canned sauce all the time. I've been enjoying some really simple pastas, with nice chopped up tomato and red pepper, seasoned with oil and fresh basil. Not too bad

That surprises me. I thought pasta was something you would have to give up and one of those things, me in my lack of knowledge, would profess to never be able to live without. Where were you, two weeks ago, when I stressing over having vegans at my house and not knowing what else I could make beyond a toss salad? I felt so simple.

ETA I have to admit, though, I didn't know that the vegan diet was that broad. I just thought it was all veggies.

 

[Dessi]

That surprises me. I thought pasta was something you would have to give up and one of those things, me in my lack of knowledge, would profess to never be able to live without. Where were you, two weeks ago, when I stressing over having vegans at my house and not knowing what else I could make beyond a toss salad? I felt so simple.

Depends on what's in it Obviously egg noodle type pastas aren't vegan, a lot of frozen pastas contain milk or eggs. Most boxed pasta are flour and water, usually plain old durum wheat, semolina flour, or whole wheat, they're almost always vegan. Rice noodles, udon, and soba noodles are usually vegan, but check the packaging if you're buying the pre-cooked stuff, of course.

I have to admit, though, I didn't know that the vegan diet was that broad. I just thought it was all veggies.

I tell people I don't eat meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin, alcohol, or tobacco, and they're usual response is, "well what do eat". I tell them sticks and pinecones. And you know what, most of them believe me for a second.

My dad still thinks I'm a "picky eater".

 

[Furcifer]

It would only be special pleading if vegans all argued "All human and non-human animals should be treated exactly equally in all respects" and then tried to argue that there should be higher moral expectations of humans.

Occasionally, I really do compare animals and humans being treated literally equally. I'm quite fond of saying things like this:

See there, she did it again.

I think maybe the problem you're having is with the wording. If things aren't equal (the way humans and animals are treated) and you try to equivocate them it's still special pleading.

If it makes you happy you could say any rebuttal to the above by "meat eaters" is special pleading. Again it's only fallacious if the reasons aren't true. If you say "They shouldn't be treated equal because humans are more intelligent" the exception is demonstrably true and therefore not a fallacy.

I do agree with your premise however, I've noticed an up swell of people listing fallacies as if they mean something on their own. In fact if you look back that's exactly what I was responding to

 

[TheGoldcountry]

My god, the nitpicking in this thread is astounding. The Dessi Principal* is at work in full force here.

I made a casual observation. I saw a 10 year-old boy snacking on a whole cabbage leaf in a natural foods store. I didn't say that I knew his diet, or the diet of his family. I didn't say whether his love of cabbage was "ingrained" or "natural". I joked (and people think it's vegans who can't take a joke) that he was going to rebel against father by eating hamburgers.

It would seem to me that you're pointing out assumptions that I've made while making just as many, if not more assumptions yourself.

Or did you not notice?





*Some people cannot discuss this issue without flying off the handle.

I can only go by the actual words that you choose to use. If "the Dessi principle" refers to logic and comprehension, than I certainly hope that is in full force.

Your "joke" says more about you than any anecdotal observation that you claim.

By the way, I am not "flying off the handle." Please don't resort to dismissing my response by using attacks like that. It won't add any value to your arguments.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Depends on what's in it Obviously egg noodle type pastas aren't vegan, a lot of frozen pastas contain milk or eggs. Most boxed pasta are flour and water, usually plain old durum wheat, semolina flour, or whole wheat, they're almost always vegan. Rice noodles, udon, and soba noodles are usually vegan, but check the packaging if you're buying the pre-cooked stuff, of course.


I tell people I don't eat meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin, alcohol, or tobacco, and they're usual response is, "well what do eat". I tell them sticks and pinecones. And you know what, most of them believe me for a second.

My dad still thinks I'm a "picky eater".

How is alcohol or tobacco "non-vegan." I understand why it's unhealthy, but I thought you were specifically addressing the definition of vegan.

 

[Unabogie]

That surprises me. I thought pasta was something you would have to give up and one of those things, me in my lack of knowledge, would profess to never be able to live without. Where were you, two weeks ago, when I stressing over having vegans at my house and not knowing what else I could make beyond a toss salad? I felt so simple.

ETA I have to admit, though, I didn't know that the vegan diet was that broad. I just thought it was all veggies.

Here's a menu from Millennium in SF:

http://millenniumrestaurant.com/menus/entrees.html

And another from a wonderful vegan Italian place in Portland (PDF!):

http://portobellopdx.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/NEWNEWNEWMENU3.pdf

 

[Unabogie]

Is there a big difference in claiming an ethical superiority rather than a moral one ?

You snipped so much of what I wrote I'm not sure what your point is or what the context should be. But how is explaining the ethical case for veganism, and explaining my opinion that our choice of foods involves value, moral, and ethical judgments the same as me claiming to be superior? Perhaps we can get back to the improved topic of the thread, instead of the dumb trollery of the OP, but if you're seriously arguing that by merely making the case for ethical choices in food, I'm making you feel inferior, then I guess I made my point pretty well.

 

[Dessi]

How is alcohol or tobacco "non-vegan." I understand why it's unhealthy, but I thought you were specifically addressing the definition of vegan.

Oh its probably vegan, its just really really gross.

 

[Dessi]

blarg blarg

A bork bork bork.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

This thread is headed for doom. Why do I always get involved in threads that I know are destined for AAH?

 

[Earthborn]

All of those people believe experiential welfare is a moral characteristic. (snip) - almost all of them accept a distinction (snip)

"All of those people" <> "almost all of them".

Whatever this "something special" is, its not equivalent to species membership, its absent at the point of brain death,

Many people believe this "something special" exists before the brain is formed, and is not necessarily absent at the point of brain death. And they may believe that it is unique to humans. It is not "experiential welfare" the way you understand it, though it is no less poorly defined.

and it marks a very important difference between living people and dead people.

Many people believe that dead people need to be treated with greater respect than dead animals. Moral considerations don't necessarily end with death. They don't necessarily end at the moment a human being stops experiencing what is done to them; not many vegans will eat their dead relatives.

The only thing I really want or care about is to guide people in the direction toward being consistent with their own principles, whatever they are.

Good luck with that. You are assuming that people don't have conflicting principles, and that they can act consistently with all of them. I am still not convinced any morality can be made internally consistent, let alone that you have a morality consistent enough to be able to guide others toward greater consistency.

Its really about being consistent with our own principles regarding the way we think of human and non-human welfare.

I think you just shifted the inconsistency a bit further down the phylogenetic tree, to include a few more species to the moral category normally assigned to humans. Without a good definition of the term, or scientific evidence to back up the claim, you still exclude (without justification) the vast majority of lifeforms from your concept of "experiential welfare".

I have a feeling you're going to ask me why I should care at all about whether people are consistent.

I have a better question: do you think you are consistent, and if so how do you know?

Probably not.

I probably shouldn't have used a negation in my question, because I can't make out from your answer whether you do or do not have moral objections to eating insects.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Oh its probably vegan, its just really really gross.

I agree with your general description, but you have espoused the value of drug use (personally) before; why are some better than others?

(mods: I sincerely believe this is on topic; so does the USFDA)

ETA: Dessi, forget my question, I see that you have bigger fish to fry. (no pun intended)

 

[citizenzen]

This thread is headed for doom. Why do I always get involved in threads that I know are destined for AAH?

Because you're part of the reason they go there?

 

[Cain]

Judging from the posts they have made in this thread, I think you are mistaken.

And you're welcome to your opinion, even if it's mistaken.

Re: Evolution as selecting for survival/replication rather than truth:

Where is the truth in your vegan dogma? You have made assertions about what you think but that doesn't make it anymore true" than anyone else's assertion about the morality if killing animals for food.

This is where you isolate a good argument, but say it's not good because it fails to accomplish something it sought. The observation that evolution selects for survival and replication is brought up to counter "eating meat" is natural argument. If you look elsewhere in this thread, you will find arguments for veganism.

We can agree that animals should be treated in a manner that minimizes suffering and that it is a morally good thing to do but we don't agree that it is cruel to kill animals for food as long as it is done on a manner that minimizes suffering.

If our goal is to minimize suffering, then we should probably consider stopping the practice of raising animals for slaughter.

-------
Conspi-

On the prosecution of people torturing dogs versus carrots question: We humans can be considered subjective about this. It's a limitation. Yes - we rip carrots out of the ground and feed them into a Veg-O-Slicer, or Carrot-Juicer. Is that torturous to the carrot? I have no idea. I'm limited that way in my moralistic decisiveness, as I'm sure most everyone is.

Even though you supported Hillary Clinton, I know you know better. You honestly have no idea if a carrot suffers? I'm not saying certainty. I'm saying on balance.

You sound like a post-modernist -- we're trapped in this bio-cultural matrix where we've been socialized with dogs but cannot relate to plants. Well, maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe it's because we share more in common with mammals than with plants. Maybe. Can bacteria feel pain?

Post-modernists are correct that science is revising itself, overturning older theories, but you go with the best evidence at hand. Just because you cannot know something for certain does not excuse doing whatever it is you've always done.

 

[Cain]

Ya know, the more I read all of this stuff and consider it.... The more I come to the conclusion that humans are really really stupid.

We are the only species on the planet who would change our DIET due to some delusional ideas about the treatment of our food....... No other species would ever do this. The ability to read ,write and have debates not withstanding, it's diet..... It's the fundamental base of our existence. Yet , the more technological we get and the more "developed" we become, the more often we will do strange things like this.

I'm impressed you continually live up to your name.

Anyway, the "logic" of this post suggests you have a problem with humans subverting one of the most important biological functions: reproduction. What species on earth would limit reproductive success? Humans who decide to have fewer children so they can spend their retirement traveling the world with a life-long mate. Stupidity. At least half those spouses are not even fertile!

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Because you're part of the reason they go there?

Are you serious? I have arguments here all the time, with people whom I respect, and enjoy conversing (on this very thread). If you have a personal problem with me, send a PM. Otherwise, take your self-righteous attitude elsewhere.

 

[ConspiRaider]

...You sound like a post-modernist...

And with that, I leave you to your veganism and judgmentalism. Hope it serves you well.