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Why vegans are simply better people

I'm no longer a vegan but I still use all my old recipes and tricks, like black bean burgers or over-ripe avocado in place of butter in carrot cake. The only thing I ever missed as a vegan was cheese and butter. There's something about those specific fats that is impossible to replace.

A proper vegan diet is a little more involved than your standard meat-starch-side dish. If you enjoy cooking, every meal becomes happy science project time. There's a lot more experimenting with grains, trying new techniques, replacing this with that, swapping recipes. Since you're already putting in some effort, making it tasty is pretty easy.

Must admit, when I was a vegan, this question always cracked me up. So many people, no matter what diet, just eat the nearest, easiest thing. It's not always delicious. It's not like the carnivores are sitting down to a perfectly grilled steak every night.

Just FYI, Earth Balance is the go-to substitute for butter, especially for baking. Cheese is a different issue. Some people like the faux cheeses but I'm not a fan. I prefer cashew cheeses that I make myself so I can understand people not liking Daiya or other cheese imitations.
 
Just FYI, Earth Balance is the go-to substitute for butter, especially for baking. Cheese is a different issue. Some people like the faux cheeses but I'm not a fan. I prefer cashew cheeses that I make myself so I can understand people not liking Daiya or other cheese imitations.

I love experimenting with food and tried some almond pepper jack one day.

This is the last time I mention it.

:p
 
You are going to have to show your work on this one. We do not need animal proteins to survive or to be healthy. You're talking to a group of healthy people who are not eating animals and still somehow manage to have the energy to type on this forum, even in our emaciated state. Doesn't that call into question your facts?

BTW, Google "vegan athletes" and you'll find several professional athletes who don't eat animals or animal products.

The fact you have chosen to ignore your natural design doesn't dismiss the FACT that you are designed to consume animal proteins. You are rationalizing a moral decision as I have seen no evidence that shows vegans live longer than non-vegans. (negating any supposed health benefits)

I would submit that said athletes would perform better with animal proteins in their system.(however this is untestable i would assume)



On a side note: Regardless of out little debate here, I would like the vegans input on something.

Did any of you see Supersize Me? (Morgan Spurlock's muckraking documentary on mcdonalds) Well, It's not something I picked up on during my first viewing but it came to me later on , and it's something that totally crashes his "data" out the window of science into garbage.

He had been a vegan for YEARS prior to making the film. His girlfriend is a vegan chef for goodness sake! So he goes from eating no animal protein for a long time right to eating friggin Micky D's 3 times a day.AND THEN using this "evidence" to point at the negative's of fast food and meat in general.

I find this really dishonest horse$%!t..... (now I don't think you'd find too many people that would say fast food is GREAT for you, but it's hardly the devil. But lying for propaganda reasons like that is just low.
 
I tried it for a few months. My supervisor at work was vegan. A conservative who was vegan for health reasons. She convinced me to try. She took me to some restaurants and prepared for me some lunches. I didn't like the food. Now, that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn to like it. Nor does my dislike translate into morality.

Recently I've noticed a trend, some feel that the best strategy to move us forward is to acknowledge the cultural aspect of tastes. Many people raised on an American diet of meat and potatoes just are not likely going to enjoy Balut, Lutefisk or many other international delicacies. However, many people who havent tried it will and as we increase the number of people who do eat a Vegan diet the greater number of people in subsequent generations will.

Some vegans I know would be happy if people who are not going to switch, like Dawkins, at least acknowledge the environmental and ethical problems of eating animals. That could accelerate the trend.

Again, I don't speak for vegans. You can chalk this up to hearsay.

i don't think we will see much of an increase. The amount of people who have so much unreasonable deranged minds as to alter their diet because of some goofy political cause can't be growing. and if it is, at least the ensuing civil war will be swift as they aren't armed. :D
 
It may be a bit of a leap ... but would you ask men who support feminism and advocate respect for women if they enjoy sex?

You seem to insinuate that if one doesn't support feminism that one doesn't respect women. That is a load of self righteous hippy crap.
 
I was at the store the other day (we have a wide variety of great natural food stores in my area) and saw a young boy snacking on a raw leaf of cabbage.

But kids being kids, he'll probably end up eating hamburgers, just to piss off the old man.

Wow, you were able to make numerous assumptions about one single event. Do you see them?
 
The fact you have chosen to ignore your natural design doesn't dismiss the FACT that you are designed to consume animal proteins. You are rationalizing a moral decision as I have seen no evidence that shows vegans live longer than non-vegans. (negating any supposed health benefits)

I would submit that said athletes would perform better with animal proteins in their system.(however this is untestable i would assume)

Why is it untestable? These same athletes used to eat meat and now they don't. But it should be noted that you have zero evidence that humans need animal protein, because that evidence doesn't exist. Humans can live just fine on plant proteins.

On a side note: Regardless of out little debate here, I would like the vegans input on something.

Did any of you see Supersize Me? (Morgan Spurlock's muckraking documentary on mcdonalds) Well, It's not something I picked up on during my first viewing but it came to me later on , and it's something that totally crashes his "data" out the window of science into garbage.

He had been a vegan for YEARS prior to making the film. His girlfriend is a vegan chef for goodness sake! So he goes from eating no animal protein for a long time right to eating friggin Micky D's 3 times a day.AND THEN using this "evidence" to point at the negative's of fast food and meat in general.

I find this really dishonest horse$%!t..... (now I don't think you'd find too many people that would say fast food is GREAT for you, but it's hardly the devil. But lying for propaganda reasons like that is just low.

Actually, it's been a while since I saw that movie, but I thought he wasn't ever a vegan. His girlfriend was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me

As the film begins, Spurlock is in physically above average shape according to his personal trainer. He is seen by three doctors (a cardiologist, a gastroenterologist, and a general practitioner), as well as a nutritionist and a personal trainer. All of the health professionals predict the "McDiet" will have unwelcome effects on his body, but none expected anything too drastic, one citing the human body as being "extremely adaptable." Prior to the experiment, Spurlock ate a varied diet but always had vegan evening meals to appease his then-girlfriend (now wife), Alexandra, a vegan chef. At the beginning of the experiment, Spurlock, who stood 6 feet 2 inches (188 cm) tall, had a body weight of 185.5 lbs (84 kg).

So, sorry, you're not correct.
 
I'm no longer a vegan but I still use all my old recipes and tricks, like black bean burgers or over-ripe avocado in place of butter in carrot cake. The only thing I ever missed as a vegan was cheese and butter. There's something about those specific fats that is impossible to replace.

A proper vegan diet is a little more involved than your standard meat-starch-side dish. If you enjoy cooking, every meal becomes happy science project time. There's a lot more experimenting with grains, trying new techniques, replacing this with that, swapping recipes. Since you're already putting in some effort, making it tasty is pretty easy.

Must admit, when I was a vegan, this question always cracked me up. So many people, no matter what diet, just eat the nearest, easiest thing. It's not always delicious. It's not like the carnivores are sitting down to a perfectly grilled steak every night.

I definitely have to agree here. 80% of my daily food intake is the of the "I gotta eat now" variety. When I have the time, I make the effort to either do something different, or experiment a little with an old favorite.
I was raised in a meat and potatoes home, literally, and even though I'm not vegan, I'm open to anything. "Happy science project time" is how I view cooking anyway, and why I love it.
 
It looks to me like you found a quote that says nothing like "we should treat human and non-human animals exactly equally" and are trying to pass it off then run away fast.

No, sleep beckoned.

Obviously you got me, not "all vegans" are saying animals should be treated "exactly equal".

It would take some really creative twisting to turn Dessi's statement into "we should have the same moral expectations of a weasel that we do of a human", for example.

No it's saying only the human animal has the moral expectation to treat all other animals like they treat other human animals.

I really don't understand what's eluding you here?

As stated repeatedly, nobody ever said "all animals should be treated equal" so this is a straw man.

Again, I don't know if you don't understand or if this is just sophistry.

You're talking about "meme" and "skeptics" but you seem to be falling for the rookie mistake of talking in absolutes.

The point about memes is that these statements are evidence you don't understand in a functional way what special pleading actually is. You've just heard the term used by members of the skeptic tribe to belittle outsiders, and you're parroting it to try to belittle vegans.

Hardly, the whole "vegan", "vegetarian" diet and all of the subclasses "lacto-ovo", "pescatarian", "raw vegan" etc. are all reduced to special pleading once the issue of morality is introduced into the equation.

It's not meant to "belittle" anyone. If anything I was countering Dessi's attempt at belittling everyone by saying "Oh, I've seen this all before". Of course she has, this is what it's reduced to. And it's not just vegans engaging in special pleading, meat eaters do as well. I believe you pointed out the fact that if you're going to eat meat why not humans? The exception to cannibalism is special pleading, but it only becomes a "fallacy" if you don't explain and give reasons for why it's a taboo.

Good luck defending your special pleading with morality though. I think that's why there's such a continued debate over it here in North America. It's much easier to say "Because my religion says so" and be done with it.
 
Just FYI, Earth Balance is the go-to substitute for butter, especially for baking. Cheese is a different issue. Some people like the faux cheeses but I'm not a fan. I prefer cashew cheeses that I make myself so I can understand people not liking Daiya or other cheese imitations.

I stayed away from all the hyper-processed vegan foods. The main reason I was a vegan was to reduce my impact, eating the packaged stuff didn't work for that.

Many plant based oils are less healthy at high heat. I primarily used olive oil for lower heat cooking and corn oil or peanut for frying. Since corn/peanut oil is heavily processed, I eventually just got a non-stick pan. Although I really, really missed crispy edges.

Cashew cheese was a once-in-a-great-while treat. Foods with 12 hour resting periods just never seemed to get made.
 
The fact you have chosen to ignore your natural design doesn't dismiss the FACT that you are designed to consume animal proteins. You are rationalizing a moral decision as I have seen no evidence that shows vegans live longer than non-vegans. (negating any supposed health benefits)

I would submit that said athletes would perform better with animal proteins in their system.(however this is untestable i would assume)



On a side note: Regardless of out little debate here, I would like the vegans input on something.

Did any of you see Supersize Me? (Morgan Spurlock's muckraking documentary on mcdonalds) Well, It's not something I picked up on during my first viewing but it came to me later on , and it's something that totally crashes his "data" out the window of science into garbage.

He had been a vegan for YEARS prior to making the film. His girlfriend is a vegan chef for goodness sake! So he goes from eating no animal protein for a long time right to eating friggin Micky D's 3 times a day.AND THEN using this "evidence" to point at the negative's of fast food and meat in general.

I find this really dishonest horse$%!t..... (now I don't think you'd find too many people that would say fast food is GREAT for you, but it's hardly the devil. But lying for propaganda reasons like that is just low.

One, he never said he was vegan. He ate vegan meals to appease his girlfriend. Two, a fast food diet is about as approximate to a healthy carnivorous diet as eating strawberry flavored twizzlers is to eating fruit.
 
Wow, you were able to make numerous assumptions about one single event. Do you see them?


Please point them out to me.

Also, be sure to point all all assumptions made in a forum ... just to be fair.

Like the one below ...


You seem to insinuate that if one doesn't support feminism that one doesn't respect women. That is a load of self righteous hippy crap.


:rolleyes:
 
I stayed away from all the hyper-processed vegan foods. The main reason I was a vegan was to reduce my impact, eating the packaged stuff didn't work for that.

Many plant based oils are less healthy at high heat. I primarily used olive oil for lower heat cooking and corn oil or peanut for frying. Since corn/peanut oil is heavily processed, I eventually just got a non-stick pan. Although I really, really missed crispy edges.

Cashew cheese was a once-in-a-great-while treat. Foods with 12 hour resting periods just never seemed to get made.

The one we make isn't like those that you have to set up. We use it for pizza, paninis, mac & cheese, sandwiches.

I don't have the link anymore, but from memory:

1 cup cashews
1/4 onion
2 tbsp soy sauce
2 tbsp sesame oil
3 tbsp lemon juice
1/4 cup nutritional yeast
2 cloves garlic
Salt to taste

So sometimes we'll leave out the soy sauce and add more salt if we want it firmer, or add water to make it more saucy for mac & cheese.

You just blend it up and use it.

Oh, and I usually sub out the sesame oil with spicy chili oil.
 
i don't think we will see much of an increase. The amount of people who have so much unreasonable deranged minds as to alter their diet because of some goofy political cause can't be growing. and if it is, at least the ensuing civil war will be swift as they aren't armed. :D

It's not really a "goofy political cause," it's a diet based on response to many documented factors - the over-use of arable land for animal feed, the inhumane conditions of agri-biz slaughter, the lack of nutrition from over-processed foods and so on.

In my case, I thought it was wasteful to use 16 pounds of grain to make a one pound hamburger. Or to use a ton of gasoline to ship all the various cheerios ingredients in to a processioning plant to turn them into boxes of cereal which then use a ton of fossil fuels to ship all over the country.

I've found that "slow food," farmer's markets with local (non-greenhouse) foods, a local butcher, and cooking from scratch can also reduce impact and I've adjusted my diet accordingly. As an adult, I'm responsible for the choices I make and how those choices affect the rest of the world.
 
The one we make isn't like those that you have to set up. We use it for pizza, paninis, mac & cheese, sandwiches.

I don't have the link anymore, but from memory:

1 cup cashews
1/4 onion
2 tbsp soy sauce
2 tbsp sesame oil
3 tbsp lemon juice
1/4 cup nutritional yeast
2 cloves garlic
Salt to taste

So sometimes we'll leave out the soy sauce and add more salt if we want it firmer, or add water to make it more saucy for mac & cheese.

You just blend it up and use it.

Oh, and I usually sub out the sesame oil with spicy chili oil.

Sweet! Thank you.
 
Please point them out to me.

Also, be sure to point all all assumptions made in a forum ... just to be fair.

Like the one below ...





:rolleyes:

No, I don't need to point out EVERY SINGLE assumption or fallacy, if you happen to see one that is relevant, point it out (I happen to agree with the post you noted,the assumption was yours, not his)

As far as your post is concerned, you assume that the boy's father/family is vegan, you assume he doesn't also eat meat, you assume that his apparent love for cabbage is ingrained in him rather than natural, you assume that he is going to rebel against whatever diet you assume he currently has.
My grandfather had a huge vegetable garden when I was young. He and I would go through every day and eat food off the vine, or bush, or whatever. We also ate meat. It wasn't a competition, and eating one didn't preclude ignoring the other.
 
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SkepticalGreg said:
Dessi has repeatedly said in one way or another that we shouldn't treat animals in a way we wouldn't treat humans.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what she's saying. The fact is we treat everybody differently, humans, animals, whatever. What Dessi is advocating for isn't treatment per se, but regard. We should regard and respect animals with the same consideration that we regard human beings. Once we see animals in that light, appropriate treatment follows. It will be different from how humans are treated, but it will be as loving, as compassionate, as respectful. That's what I think she means.
100% correct. Its about equal consideration of interests. I'm really fond of Peter Singer, I think this view sums up my feelings in a nutshell:
Peter Singer said:
If a being suffers there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that its suffering be counted equally with the like suffering – insofar as rough comparisons can be made – of any other being.

I'm fond of excruciatingly long posts, so here goes...

Imagine if someone denied the existence of human rights on the basis that we don't literally treat people exactly the same irrespective of differences. They might say "of course we treat people differently, you deny patients organ transplants if they have an incompatible blood type, you're discriminating on blood type!". Or how about, "its legal to discriminate against white actors who want to portray Martin Luther King in movies, that's racial discrimination!"

What would you do upon hearing that? Would you say, hmmmmmm, equal rights but different treatment, I guess human rights are a fiction? Or, would you laugh in that person's face, "here's your sign".

Sometimes differences between people really don't matter, sometimes differences rationally justify different treatment between others. I like the example given here: If two of my students have the same grades on exams and papers, and have identical attendance and class participation, I am morally obliged to give them the same final grade. That one is blue-eyed and the other is brown-eyed may be a difference between them, but it is not morally relevant to grading them.

There's a whole class of civil rights laws which fall under bona fide occupational qualifications. It's illegal to discriminate against women seeking positions as software developers, yet its legal to discriminate against women who audition for the role of president John F Kennedy in historical films. If someone feels its important to discriminate against female developers, they better have a damn good reason.

With regard to animal rights, we'd likely not strap our cat into a child safety seat because those devices weren't designed to accommodate a cat's safety or comfort. We'd likely not put our children in pet carriers for the same reason. The distinction here has nothing to do with cats and children being different species. We need to care for each one's welfare and safety, but we also need to understand that there are anatomical differences between them which rationally justifies accommodating them in different ways.

We might consider an interest in not starving to death to be important. We'd likely not force a child to graze outdoors, or force a cow to eat pancakes and hashbrowns at the table due to obvious anatomical differences, wants, etc.

Occasionally, I really do compare animals and humans being treated literally equally. I'm quite fond of saying things like this:
I'd say its ok to slaughter animals for food, infect them diseases and cancers, and use their organs for transplantation only in the areas where it would be acceptable to use a mentally similar human in the exact same way.

How do we rationally justify slaughtering and tormenting animals if treating mentally similar humans would be undeniably cruel? Is it due to an anatomical difference? Mental difference? Species difference?

That question pretty much is the animal rights debate in a nutshell. Years of discussion on the subject have lead me to the following view described here:
Dessi said:
Should we treat animal rights as 'equal' to human rights?
Yes, animals and mentally similar humans are moral equals. Arguments against animal rights are problematic because they unavoidably carry over to arguments the human rights. For example, if I make an argument that animals have no rights because they aren't rational moral agents, I must concede that mentally similar humans are no more advantaged; if I argue that non-rational humans have rights, I must concede that rationality is not a prerequisite for moral consideration, and such a principle logically carries over to non-human animals. Animal rights and human rights are two sides of the same coin.
 
... For example, if I make an argument that animals have no rights because they aren't rational moral agents, I must concede that mentally similar humans are no more advantaged; if I argue that non-rational humans have rights, I must concede that rationality is not a prerequisite for moral consideration, and such a principle logically carries over to non-human animals. Animal rights and human rights are two sides of the same coin.

You might concede that, but my opinion is that the majority of human beings wouldn't..
 

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