So show where in that segment matt where it is that Karel claims what I do......
This is where you stole the idea. Your other thousands of words of useless text is just an obvious smokescreen.
And it didn't say "more or less". It said it was military.
So show where in that segment matt where it is that Karel claims what I do......
I am semi stunned by your response matt. It is beyond anemic, downright aplastic matter-o-fact.
Your claim is that my views with respect to Apollo; Motive, Method, Personal are those of the talented French writer, photographer and filmmaker William Karel, as Karel presented those hoax themes in his film, "OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON". Your claim is that I plagiarized Karel's work, stole his perspective as presented in that movie and that my ideas about Apollo therefore are not my own.
I hardly know where to begin, so I shall keep it simple. "Plagiarism" in the latest edition of the electronic New Oxford American Dictionary is defined as;
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own"
So by definition, in order for me to plagiarize the good Director Karel, my major Apollo fraud themes, and the details of my views with regard to method employed in the Apollo fraud, and the details regarding my views as to who the fraud perpetrators were and how they might be identified as such, must be contained and clearly so, within the body of Karel's work OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON.
First I'll present in outline the broad Apollo Fraud themes I have developed, my personal views on method and my views on how fraud perpetrators may be spotted and who those perpetrators are. As best I can, as anyone can, I'll do the same for Karel's work so as the comparison between the two views can be made as easily as possible. One must keep in mind however that my overall view of Apollo and Karel's overall view of the American manned lunar effort as presented in his film OPERATION LUNE, are very different. My overall view is that Apollo was a real high tech American space effort in which various military objectives as discussed below were defined and carried out under the guise or cover if you will, of fraudulent Apollo. In OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON Karel presents a world very different from mine. Karel's film leaves the question of a landing up in the air. Men, Americans, may or may not have landed on the moon. For Karel, whether they did or not is almost irrelevant. His aim is to show that it did not matter as to whether we landed or not. Nixon had forged photos in his hip pocket which were to serve as the defining images of Apollo history. IN THE CONTEXT OF KAREL'S FILM/TALE, THE LUNAR MOONSCAPES OF STANLEY KUBRICK ARE THE STORY AND THE HISTORY. THEY CONSTITUTE THE HISTORY IN AND OF THEMSELVES. THE DETAILS AS REGARDS ACTUAL EVENTS ARE NOT MEANINGLESS IN THE SENSE THAT THEY DID NOT OCCUR, BUT THEY ARE MEANINGLESS IN THE SENSE THAT THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INFLUENCE UPON THE PUBLIC. ONLY THE IMAGES COUNT, ONLY THE IMAGES MATTER AND IN THE CASE OF KAREL'S APOLLO FILM, THE IMAGES ARE FORGED.
Certainly, in this regard Karel's film is flat out brilliant. It falls short of being a great film because it simply is not executed nearly as well as it could have been. On the other hand, Karel's film is satire, to repeat the point I made regarding this subject in my last post. After the End Credits first come up, various principals are featured delivering their lines and cracking up as they blow it here and there, much as Peter Sellers was featured as doing in that brilliant segment after the end credits for his film BEING THERE. Again, it is worth noting that when Karel made the film, he first thought that people would be able to spot it as "feigned documentary" within 15 minutes. He says in his personal interview featured on the movie DVD that they purposely left CLUES so people would catch on early, perhaps so that they would be able to pick up on the real theme, the one about the manipulation of images/history/reality. For example, Karel has his narrator say the von Braun "worked for NASA" starting right after WWII. So from 1945 until the time of Apollo project, the subject matter of the film, von Braun, per the film is said to be working for NASA. But we all know NASA started way after that and that von Braun made rockets for the U.S. Army right after the war NOT NOT NOT NASA. So Karel is hoping, I guess in a sense, that people will immediately pick up on this, and in so doing, move themselves to a different level in terms of "reading the film" and understanding what the filmmaker is after. Again to emphasize, in this case, the Karel film case, the subject matter is image manipulation, NOT APOLLO REALITY VS HOAX. Karel pushes, not too subtly by the way, to show the impact images, manipulated images, have on what VERSION of history becomes history.
This background material is critically important in one's understanding of the Karel film in a broad sense theme wise, and interestingly, on that basis alone, understanding the film's broad themes, one may easily dismiss matt's plagiary charge as beyond less than baseless. That said, I still believe it important/worthwhile to move on and provide further detail regarding Karel's film. It is worthwhile for the most obvious of reasons. As such, I shall move on now and discuss my own themes, my own views on perpetrator methods, and my own views on how to catch a perp. Then I'll present the same for Karel's "view of Apollo" as presented in his film, keeping in mind the important caveats that I mentioned above. One last comment is ever so critical in making at this time, the issue at hand, the charge of plagiarism, has absolutely nothing to do with the merits/truth or lack thereof as regards my views on fraud theme/method/personal(perpetrators). My views may prove to be as nutty as they come. However, if they are not Karel's views as well, then I am not a plagiarist, despite my theories' deficiencies, no matter how substantial those identified deficiencies may be. On the other hand, I may have everything "right", "correct", "perfect". If Karel has them too, it may be the case that I did steal them, however innocent I may seem.
OK, on with my themes, methods and perpetrators!
I'll cover these themes again and again and again in much greater details in later posts. Here I just want to give enough detail to demonstrate how my own themes dwell several lightyears outside the Karel film sphere of influence….
THEMES: I believe that NASA manned space programs were covers for important American military programs. Activities were carried out under the guise of Mercury/Gemini/Apollo Shuttle that could not be done openly given treaties signed such as the Partial Test Ban Treaty. Fear of public opinion was just as important as treaty limitation. These NASA activities carried out under the cover of manned space programs included but were not limited to;
1) Testing ICBMs, guidance systems and WARHEADS! LIVE WARHEADS!!! needed to be flown through space and then allowed to reenter to see if the equipment functioned properly. "Did the tritium make it back through the atmosphere OK?"
2) Making computerized star maps and the hardware and software to read those maps and utilize them effectively. ICBMs could be better guided by way of stellar inertial systems which required detailed and insanely accurate star maps.
3) Planting stuff including the renown LRRRs in various places, planting stuff in earth orbit including at libration points, and on the moon itself. Such equipment was used in reception, transmission, surveillance, guidance, location and tracking of objects on the surface of the earth and of other non-terrestrial objects orbiting themselves.
4) Empirically determining the Newtonian Gravitational Constant, the Gaussian Gravitational Constant, earth-moon and earth-sun distances, earth barycenter position/determinations, weather monitoring, harmonic determinations. All this and more would be useful in tracking soviet ICBMs and guiding our own.
I'll just pause here for a moment. Where matt, in OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON, does Karel present ANY ideas with regard to the LRRR and lunar ranging as a means to calculate the Newtonian Gravitational Constant and use that empirically determined insanely accurate figure to guide one's own nukes/ICBMs? NOWHERE!…….
Where does Karel mention that ICBMs were flown through he atmosphere to be sure that the "tritium was OK" , survived the flight in such a way that it could find and blow up Baryshnikov? NOWHERE!
OK, I shall move on;
METHOD: I believe that essentially all Apollo workers were of the opinion Apollo was a genuine manned moon landing program. Even the genius types like Thomas Kelly who designed the lunar module. This is essential in terms of fraud function. If it was not run like this, run as a bona fide manned landing program, it would not work. The equipment, the flight officers(almost) to a man, are genuine. They launch Saturn Vs, land unmanned LMs on the moon and so forth and it is all real, except Armstrong is not in the Bird and the things landed function to survey , reconnoiter , track, locate etc. The ruse is not fool proof however, and even casual researchers note odd/funny/bogus things that indicate fraud. Things such as my 11 points of Apollonian bogus light;
<snip>
Edited by Loss Leader:
Previously posted material removed in accordance with rules against flooding.
So the METHOD is to run a real space program, only you don't land dudes, you land equipment, military equipment as described above.
Let's pause here for a moment. Does Karel's film argue for Apollo as an unmanned program matt? Does the Karel pseudo-documentary narrator site any of those 12 points as substantive in terms of demonstrating Apollo fraud matt?
Remember, my 12 points need not be good. If Karel's film does not feature my 12 points, or something close to them, which it does not, then matt's charge is utterly baseless, which it is.
I'll move on, last issue perps…….
PERPETRATORS: My view is that one can often times spot Apollo Fraud Perps at "decision points". As Apollo is script and not real life improv, there are no substantive decisions to be made. There are other ways to catch perps, but again, this post is not intended to be exhaustive. It is an outline. That said, here is the most extensive/complete list of perps published to date;
1) All of the Apollo astronauts flying on missions 8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 were fraud insiders. They knew that Apollo was one phony program manned lunar landing wise and one great ICBM military program. One knows this to be the case as Apollo 8 has been identified as bogus given the phony Borman illness, with the reasons for the incredibly patent and ludicrous phoniness as provided in numerous previous posts above. Of course one may pick and chose from the other 11 reasons for Apollo fraud as well. the Borman illness example is a special reason as it provides for comprehensive coverage of all missions, showing them all to be fake. Apollo 8 was alleged to have shown cislunar space was navigable. As one may conclude that such was not the case, Apollo 8 never navigated through cislunar space, one may conclude NONE OF THE APOLLO SHIPS DID.
The Mercury and Gemini Astronauts for the most part must have been aware of the American manned space programs as being in reality "unmanned military".
Deke Slayton, obvious perp for obvious reasons. Astronaut chief. Picks each phony astronaut for each phony landing, each phony orbiting, each phony case of phony diarrhea.
2) Harrison/Jack Schmitt deserves special attention/mention as an astronaut fraudster. Schmitt worked Apollo as a geologist first, NOT as an astronaut. As a man who became one of the renown scientist astronauts, Schmitt was the only one of these to make it to the moon. Of course the NASA/Apollo fraud insiders had to get at least one of these dudes to the moon to sort of prove the thing was legit. I mean you couldn't have all of these military types going to the moon, one pair of soldiers after another you know and have people continue to buy into this notion it was all on the up and up, peaceful and blah blah blah. So Schmitt was the anointed one, to walk upon the moon and show the world, and prove to the 400,000 Apollo workers that it was all about science. Now Schmitt was a fraudster from the get go. His role as a geologist was to feed the astronauts lines so that when they regurgitated this stuff for Shoemaker and the legit geologists, guys like Armstrong would sound like they were really paying attention and were hot stuff. See?
3) Steve Bales and Jack Garman, one or the other and probably BOTH are fraud insiders because the 1202 program alarm decision point is NOT a decision point. there really are no legit decision points. As Bales and Garman both said "GO!!!" when the only thing one could say was "GO!!!" given this thing was a fraud, one recognizes the "GO!!!!" as a piece of script and not an authentic utterance. Garman and/or Bales, more than likely BOTH are fraudsters.
3) John Aaron, flight controller was undoubtedly in on the fraud. He knew what was wrong with Apollo 12. Knew how to get the instruments to read correctly again after the lightening strike on Apollo 12. Since Apollo 12 was going to the moon no matter what, the lightening strike and subsequent readout problems were in no way shape or form going to keep the ship from making it to the moon. Apollo 12 was going to the moon no matter what. John Aaron identifies the fake problem and so because the "fix" is so vital to the script, one may identify it as a fake fix. Aaron reads a script to get Apollo back so that it can go to the moon after all.
4) George Mueller, Associate Administrator of the NASA Office of Manned Space Flight from September 1963 until December 1969. Mueller was a key figure in the decision to send Apollo 8 on its simulated mission to the moon after the Saturn V Apollo 6 problems were ignored and a Saturn IB rocket was used for Apollo 7. Were Apollo a real program, Mueller and colleagues would have tested the Saturn V UNMANNED after the Apollo 6 debacle.
5) Samuel Phillips, Director of NASA's Apollo Manned Lunar Landing Program from 1964 to 1969, the seventh Director of the National Security Agency, 1972-1973. Phillips gives the word for Apollo 8 to continue to the moon despite Borman's illness. His decision is made outside of the context of meaningful medical input and as such, given the fraudulence of the illness, one may easily identify Phillips as a perp.
6) Emil Schiesser, mathematician, Apollo guidance/navigation/trajectory specialist. Knew all about the shenanigans with respect to the LAM-2 map and "Hiding the Eagle" with respect to the first landing. A major player. One of the Apollo fraud's key figures. Much depended on his skills. Unlike the astronauts, I would imagine Schiesser was an actor of some ability.
7) James Webb, Thomas Paine and John F. Kennedy. Webb and Paine were the chief NASA administrators during the years of the Apollo run. Kennedy was prez early in the 60s and gave the famous moon speech. More likely than not it was understood that these programs were primarily military from the get go and had little to do with actually landing men on the moon and returning them safely to earth.
8) David Harland, Author of popular and sometimes fairly technical books about Apollo. One can now hang his/her hat on this dude's proven perp status. He knows about the bogus LAM-2 map rotation and the ellipse misplacement.
OK, so much for my themes, method and perps.
KAREL MENTIONS NONE OF MY STUFF IN HIS FILM, NONE OF IT , NADA, ZIP ZILCH, ZERO. I CANNOT HAVE POSSIBLY PLAGIARIZED MATERIAL THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THERE, THOUGH I INVITE MATT OR ANY FORUM COLLEAGUE TO SHOW ME WHERE MY STUFF APPEARS IN KAREL'S FILM OPERATION LUNE/THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.
A few details with respect to Karel's film. His THEME actually has to do with photos/images and the fact they can be manipulated and so used as tools to shape how history is read. That said, matt suggests the reference made to Apollo as military in the film is relevant here. I'll take a close look at that.
First of all, I did not see the film until last evening for the first time. I watched it a second time today. I can hardly plagiarize something I have not seen.
Assume for the sake of argument that I had seen OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON back in April when I started in on all of this. How does that film take me to the March 1970 LRRR edition of Scientific American and the seminal SCIENCE articles on the LRRRR by Alley, Faller and the others?
With respect to the specific details of the film; 7 minutes in more or less is where there is a little bit of dialogue/narration about Apollo as military. This culminates in the statement that Apollo was the feeler program, the intro to Ronald Reagan's "STAR WARS". It is an open statement made without support or rationale. Why STAR WARS? I actually know absolutely NOTHING about STAR WARS Reagan style except that it had to do with the creation of an anti-missile defensive shield that was/is speculative.
The hardware and software of my fraudulent Apollo program are very much NOT SPECULATIVE, I CLAIM AND CLAIM CONSISTENTLY THIS STUFF WAS TESTED AND DEPLOYED IN THE REAL-TIME OF MERCURY/GEMINI/APOLLO/SHUTTLE. I IMAGINE THIS POINT SHOULD SETTLE IT MATT. AN LRRR WORKS!!!! STAR WARS as far as I know is still in development. That said, as I have mentioned in the past, I would imagine there always were and are contingencies to nuke things in space, go after satellites and what not should a shooting war begin.
So with respect to THEME, mine is as above, real-world, here and now, LRRR, surveillance, reconnaissance, targeting, location(earth and supra atmospheric), guidance(ICBMs) . Karel's Apollo Program Theme is not well defined, sometimes it is Bart Sibrelesque, about U.S. esteem, in one place the military is mentioned but in the context ultimately of STAR WARS which has no direct relation to my Apollo systems.
In Karel's film, the question of method is brought up in an old fashioned sense. Flags waving, boots that should not imprint given the lunar soil conditions, problems with lighting. These are fraud modalities that I do not work with. Additionally, and to emphasize, in Karel's film, the astronauts' landing on the moon is presented as possibly being real, and as such, there is no definite "hoax" element.
With regard to "evidence" for fraud, Karel's Nixon character has the bogus photos that Stanley Kubrick made for him in case the landing did not work out or in case the landing did but the "real" pics turned out bad. I don't know what to do with that……… the guys who made the phony picks are all killed to keep 'em quiet except Kubrick. Nixon first orders this, chickens out and then a CIA type follows through. This stuff does not register with me.
Finally, in Karel's film, there are no identifiable perps accept the astronauts and only they would be IDed as such if they really did not land, and Karel purposely keeps that ambiguous . so in Karel's film, no one is identifiable as a perp in any meaningful sense, certainly not the sense in which I name the perps in my schema.
In summary matt; you will need to show that somewhere in the film OPERATION LUNE/THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON; reference is made to my THEMES(Lrrr, surveillance, reconnaissance, targeting, locating, warhead testing), METHODS(Apollo is real but unmanned, see my 11 points for showing it phony), PERPETRATORS(I have spotted dozens, Karels's film has none, the landing may be TOTALLY LEGIT, it is ambiguous.
