Why vegans are simply better people

[Kahalachan]

Yes, a silly idea, but hey, it's not my place to tell idiots that they can't have a purebred animal. Just make it damn expensive and prohibitive to anyone who finds the idea so compelling.

I don't blame them, I think their perceptions silly and does nothing to solve the overpopulation problem. People want pets. If we made owning purebreds difficult and expensive many people might actually find that a pet from the local shelter is actually a great idea.

You need to look into puppy mills. In any event, I seriously don't give a damn. IMO, any policy that leads to unnecessary suffering and does little to nothing to reduce suffering is irrational. I'm not calling for a prohibition (though I wouldn't cry if we had one). I'm saying we should make it far more difficult and far more expensive than it is now. Increase the health requirements, fees, regulations of breeding and provide higher fines and stiffer penalties for those who violate the regulations. The fees should cover inspectors to check breeders and cover the costs of closing down puppy mills. Anyone dealing with an unlicensed breeder would lose their license and face stiff penalties and I would carry that to store owners and property owners. I was an insurance inspector and I know how relatively easy it is to enforce compliance.

This is America. I suppose I can be persuaded to put up with the whims of perception as it relates to dogs and cats. That would be consistent with my primary argument. Just make it far more difficult and far more expensive. Far more. Did I say "far more"? Okay, well, I mean that.

I agree it is fairly arbitrary. I like how Siberian Huskies look but anything remotely similar could pass for my ideal pet really. Because of the classification from toy dogs to giant mastiffs, breeding sorta helps people know what ballpark animal is best for their household. But that's as far as I'll stick up for breeding dogs.

Dogs, cats, horses, rodents, and many other domesticated animals will be around and cared for as long as humans exist, whether we're vegan or not.


See here:

You bring up existing animals used as pets which I understand. We don't eat horse and like riding them. Although I thought PETA was against horse riding too. Since it's more like using an animal as a beast of burden and less companionship related like a dog. But animals used purely as food I don't see being around if we were all vegan.

And seeing your link I'm not using what I said as a criticism against veganism. Veganism cuts down on the meat demand which is good. But more of a theoretical scenario of how veganism doesn't seem a good idea as a universal adaptation.

I see the rest of your point, but personally if it came between cows being used for food and existing and no longer existing and not being harmed, I'd opt for cows existing.

Animal rights are a tough issue cause we can't project our human wants on animals. We evolved differently. So yeah it's kind of sad to see a cow just eat grass then get killed, but we also bred them to pretty much be content with that. It seems we often project ourselves into that scenario where we are jailed for no reason and then are aware of our impending doom to be food for something else. When it's not the case with cows.

This doesn't mean I'm all for factory farming cause our technology and demand for meat rose so fast that it passed what cows were bred to be in the first place and I can imagine the cows not liking that scenario. They don't get to move and graze as their biology demands they should.

Ideally I should like to see vegans and meat eaters get to the point where it's like the Western days with cows roaming and a few cowboys to care for them. Or shepherds for sheep. Where the animals live as they were bred and we get to enjoy meat as the omnivores we are.

 

[BravesFan]

What about all the poor bacteria that get murdered every time someone cooks their greens?

Besides, if various groups want change people's opinions on eating meat it would seem that their efforts would be better spent on inventing the bacon tree rather than inflammatory propaganda that just creates eye rolling and face palming from the general public.

 

[dafydd]

What about all the poor bacteria that get murdered every time someone cooks their greens?

Besides, if various groups want change people's opinions on eating meat it would seem that their efforts would be better spent on inventing the bacon tree rather than inflammatory propaganda that just creates eye rolling and face palming from the general public.

You sprung that on us with no warning. It's a hambush.

 

[BravesFan]

Can you imagine the glories of the bacon tree? I would buy land just to plant my own private orchard!

 

[RandFan]

What about all the poor bacteria that get murdered every time someone cooks their greens?

Besides, if various groups want change people's opinions on eating meat it would seem that their efforts would be better spent on inventing the bacon tree rather than inflammatory propaganda that just creates eye rolling and face palming from the general public.

Just an observation, however, this is one of those points that I think actually has some validity (bias alert, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian and don't mean to speak for them. This is JMO). Now, by some I mean tiny. And that value can be found in the following, life is a continuum. Loki's wager. At what point do we draw the line? I will let someone else provide a counter.

We need to understand that people with ethical objections to the killing of animals for food (and other reasons for killing animals) have carefuly considered the argument and find it lacking. I will tell you that most vegans and vegetarians are well informed and live an examined life. They understand their intellectual reasons very well. If you want to use this argument I would suggest you find a better way to make it because as it is, and this is JMO again, it will float as well as a lead balloon.

 

[BravesFan]

Just an observation, however, this is one of those points that I think actually has some validity (bias alert, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian and don't mean to speak for them. This is JMO). Now, by some I mean tiny. And that value can be found in the following, life is a continuum. Loki's wager. At what point do we draw the line? I will let someone else provide a counter.

We need to understand that people with ethical objections to the killing of animals for food (and other reasons for killing animals) have carefuly considered the argument and find it lacking. I will tell you that most vegans and vegetarians are well informed and live an examined life. They understand their intellectual reasons very well. If you want to use this argument I would suggest you find a better way to make it because as it is, and this is JMO again, it will float as well as a lead balloon.

I was just being silly. I have a friend who's a vegan and I constantly pepper her with silly little jokes like that. She told me if I could grow bacon tree she would be in line for an orchard herself! (and fought off the bacteria argument with "they don't have faces" )

 

[RandFan]

I was just being silly. I have a friend who's a vegan and I constantly pepper her with silly little jokes like that. She told me if I could grow bacon tree she would be in line for an orchard herself! (and fought off the bacteria argument with "they don't have faces" )

Got it.

 

[Rat]

I was just being silly. I have a friend who's a vegan and I constantly pepper her with silly little jokes like that. She told me if I could grow bacon tree she would be in line for an orchard herself! (and fought off the bacteria argument with "they don't have faces" )

I'm fairly sure there isn't a vegan alive who doesn't face those sorts of questions every single day.

 

[Estellea]

So spoiled, white college-age civil rights activists broke the law in various sit-in protests, creepy old guys molester teh children, and "criminals are criminals." The ALF and ELF are explicit on the means to their ends, not sure what more can be said after it has been quoted and emphasized.

They're terrorists. The rest of what you said is meaningless.

Perhaps you should do the unthinkable and define terrorism (be sure to carefully avoid the FBI's understanding of the term).

Why should I avoid the FBI's label of terrorist as it pertains to ALF and ELF? Why should that make you uncomfortable? They seek to obtain their objections through the use of fear, intimidation and violence perpetrated against civilians. They torch buildings, threaten scientists and their children with violence, beat people and harass/threaten students involved in biomedical research. Cutesy pictures of hooded yobs bottle-feeding little lambies doesn't diminish the fact that they are terrorists.

What it comes down to is this: "terror" groups want to defend animals harmed by property while our resident couch-warriors want to defend the property used to harm animals. Little wonder these "terrorists" are branded "crazy" -- it takes effort and thought to not only recognize oppression at one's own hands, but to risk one's neck doing something about it is... utterly alien. "What's to gain?" So we can spend hours pondering how Jefferson must have wrestled with a lifetime of slavery, really try to empathize with the guy, but I'll be goddamned if we don't snap at a PETA representative who made an intemperate remark in a Q&A.

What's with the scare quotes? Embrace it already. And the irony is, all of you defending these groups have and do benefit from most animal experimentation.

Este

 

[BravesFan]

I'm fairly sure there isn't a vegan alive who doesn't face those sorts of questions every single day.

If she wasn't my friend I wouldn't tease her like that. (what do I care what somebody wants to eat?) She's not militant about it and she also chimes in with statement such as this text from yesterday after she asked what I was doing and I responded with eating a ham sandwich"so after you gorge on some pigs behind (and you know where they lay) wanna go do something?" lol

 

[Stout]

So long as your efforts don't promote the increase of population of cats then I'm happy.

Around here we have a shortage of cats due to spay/neuter regulations and practices that require up front payment for the services before an animal is adopted from a store or shelter.

So why did I decide to get a cat from a pet store rather than a shelter ?

THB these shelters or rescue agencies are full on control freaks.

My application to adopt a cat wanted to know such things as
-Do I own or rent ? If i rent, I need written permission from the landlord
-What are my plans for the animal should I decide to move...or die ?
-What do I think of declawing ?
-How much am I prepared to spend on veterinary care and can I afford it ?

And to cap it all off, The rescue agency wanted me to sign a form granting them the right to do an on site inspection of my house at any time they please for the lifespan of the cat.

Even after agreeing to all that crap ( with the idea that I'd make them sue me for access to my house if they went all inspection on me down the road ) I was still rejected because I let it slip that I'd be letting the cat have free access to the outdoors. On no, they say at the last minute when I'm there with my cat carrier, my 5 year old son and the $150 they wanted for an adoption fee. Apparently "the big cheese" in the rescue agency doesn't want cats going outside and doing cat things, something the foster family who was looking after the litter didn't know at the time I applied.

So I decided to go the pet store route, unfortunately every one was out of stock.

Eventually I had to go to another city to adopt from a rescue agency where they weren't so anal and control freaky about my decisions on how my cat is going to live.

Really, the cost wasn't a factor both pet stores and rescue agencies get the same deals on vaccinations and spay/neuter so it was $150 whatever route I went with the same guarantees that I'm getting a healthy animal from both places.

Given the choice between a rescue agency with an invasive application process and a pet store that simply believes me when I tell them I've had cats my entire life and I know what I'm doing, I'll take the people who take me at face value.

 

[citizenzen]

Animal rights are a tough issue cause we can't project our human wants on animals. We evolved differently. So yeah it's kind of sad to see a cow just eat grass then get killed, but we also bred them to pretty much be content with that. It seems we often project ourselves into that scenario where we are jailed for no reason and then are aware of our impending doom to be food for something else. When it's not the case with cows.

You warn against projecting, yet that's exactly what YOU did. Please explain how you know the state of mind of cows, their level of contentment and how well they accept confinement and impending doom.

Many people used to believe that slaves were content and better off living they lives they did. How easy it is to project that some beings don't deserve or desire the same freedom other humans take for granted.

Excerpt from The Planter's Northern Bride, Caroline Lee Hentz, 1800-1856 ...

When we have seen the dark and horrible pictures drawn of slavery and exhibited to a gazing world, we have wondered if we were one of those favoured individuals to whom the fair side of life is ever turned, or whether we were created with a moral blindness, incapable of distinguishing its lights and shadows. One thing is certain, and if we were on judicial oath we would repeat it, that during our residence in the South, we have never witnessed one scene of cruelty or oppression, never beheld a chain or a manacle, or the infliction of a punishment more severe than parental authority would be justified in applying to filial disobedience or transgression. This is not owing to our being placed in a limited sphere of observation, for we have seen and studied domestic, social, and plantation life, in Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. We have been admitted into close and familiar communion with numerous families in each of these States, not merely as a passing visiter, but as an indwelling guest, and we have never been pained by an inhuman exercise of authority, or a wanton abuse of power.

On the contrary, we have been touched and gratified by the exhibition of affectionate kindness and care on one side, and loyal and devoted attachment on the other. We have been especially struck with the cheerfulness and contentment of the slaves, and their usually elastic and buoyant spirits. From the abundant opportunities we have had of judging, we give it as our honest belief, that the negroes of the South are the happiest labouring class on the face of the globe; even subtracting from their portion of enjoyment all that can truly be said of their trials and sufferings. The fugitives who fly to the Northern States are no proof against the truth of this statement. They have most of them been made disaffected by the influence of others -- tempted by promises which are seldom fulfilled[.] Even in the garden of Eden, the seeds of discontent and rebellion were sown; surely we need not wonder that they sometimes take root in the beautiful groves of the South.​

 

[BravesFan]

I think you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole comparing cows to HUMAN SLAVES!

Have you been around a cow? they aren't struggling in bitter bondage awaiting just one chance to be free and be able to raise their families on their own terms and not at the whims of their master!!!!

You can choose to not eat meat all you want, and you can choose to make your case all you want. but your statement above is fairly offensive.

 

[RandFan]

Around here we have a shortage of cats due to spay/neuter regulations and practices that require up front payment for the services before an animal is adopted from a store or shelter.

I don't mean to be flippant but, well, cool. Your community is one serious exception.

So why did I decide to get a cat from a pet store rather than a shelter ?

THB these shelters or rescue agencies are full on control freaks.

My application to adopt a cat wanted to know such things as
-Do I own or rent ? If i rent, I need written permission from the landlord
-What are my plans for the animal should I decide to move...or die ?
-What do I think of declawing ?
-How much am I prepared to spend on veterinary care and can I afford it ?

And to cap it all off, The rescue agency wanted me to sign a form granting them the right to do an on site inspection of my house at any time they please for the lifespan of the cat.

Even after agreeing to all that crap ( with the idea that I'd make them sue me for access to my house if they went all inspection on me down the road ) I was still rejected because I let it slip that I'd be letting the cat have free access to the outdoors. On no, they say at the last minute when I'm there with my cat carrier, my 5 year old son and the $150 they wanted for an adoption fee. Apparently "the big cheese" in the rescue agency doesn't want cats going outside and doing cat things, something the foster family who was looking after the litter didn't know at the time I applied.

So I decided to go the pet store route, unfortunately every one was out of stock.

Eventually I had to go to another city to adopt from a rescue agency where they weren't so anal and control freaky about my decisions on how my cat is going to live.

Really, the cost wasn't a factor both pet stores and rescue agencies get the same deals on vaccinations and spay/neuter so it was $150 whatever route I went with the same guarantees that I'm getting a healthy animal from both places.

Given the choice between a rescue agency with an invasive application process and a pet store that simply believes me when I tell them I've had cats my entire life and I know what I'm doing, I'll take the people who take me at face value.

I never take issue with individual decisions and I won't render a judgement either way as to your actions. As for the overall issue your situation highlights, given the serious nature of the very real problem of over population I don't care. I've never heard of such a thing and I suppose it's possible but IMO it sounds like my idea is feasible and it actually argues for me.

And I apologize that I'm being dismissive. I'm not against pet ownership. I think it is a good thing. And I would gladly fight against any proposal to prohibit pet ownership (if the label rubs anyone wrong please substitute any other label for having a domestic animal in your care) The problems you highlight really have nothing to do with my argument. We just need to address those problems and find solutions without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And, I have to say, given a choice between your situation and overpopulation I would find it a no brainer to go with your situation. But, given the volume of dogs and cats we destroy each year (3-4 million) I personally would find such a proposed dilemma to be at best academic and could not take seriously any real life claim.

Change the regulations for adopting from shelters.

 

[Dessi]

What about all the poor bacteria that get murdered every time someone cooks their greens?

Besides, if various groups want change people's opinions on eating meat it would seem that their efforts would be better spent on inventing the bacon tree rather than inflammatory propaganda that just creates eye rolling and face palming from the general public.

I know you're being silly, but I get questions like this every single day, and for what its worth, see here:

Ethical vegans will almost universally acknowledge that life, in and of itself, isn't valuable. Its not biological life that matters, but biographical life and life which has an experiential welfare -- like the capacity to feel pain, pleasure, satisfaction, suffering, see one's self over time, have wants, expectations, and so on.

Plants, salmonella, ants, AI opponents in video games and such have no mental life. In what way is something harmed if it has no experiences whatsoever? How do you make an argument that being killed or staying alive is in an organisms best interests if it cannot, even in principle, prefer one outcome or the other? What moral characteristics do they have at all? Name just one which makes them comparable to an organism with experiential welfare.

This is not a controversial point of view. I'm quite certain that you support abortion up to a certain point, likely support non-voluntary euthanasia for people in a permanent vegetative state -- you might have your talking point reasons in debates, but if you're anything like me, you've probably wondered what moral characteristics early term fetuses or vegetative humans even have, how do you even harm something without a mental life in principle?

Long story short, unless you're talking to a Jainist, you will likely never meet a vegan on the planet who believes life, for the sake of life itself, has any value whatsoever.

 

[Furcifer]

You should know by now that in this world of diverse beliefs and opinions that there will always be some people who'll judge viewpoints as "whacko" while other people see them as valid.

It is your opinion that "they sound like complete whackos".

It is my opinion that they are just ahead of their time. So their message is lost on those who lag behind.

You seriously don't mean that about calling an animal he or she instead of an "it" do you? That's what I'm talking about, because that type of stuff just draws fanatics to the cause. These are the ones that like to personify their dog and think it understands them. They're the suicide bombers of the animal rights cause.
As for PETA and their attempt to get people to understand and maybe even empathize with animals, I think we all get that. Some of us more than other maybe, but we all get it to some extent.

 

[Dessi]

I think you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole comparing cows to HUMAN SLAVES!

Have you been around a cow? they aren't struggling in bitter bondage awaiting just one chance to be free and be able to raise their families on their own terms and not at the whims of their master!!!!

You can choose to not eat meat all you want, and you can choose to make your case all you want. but your statement above is fairly offensive.

I think its a perfectly apt comparison. Interestingly enough, the argument for human slavery is identical to arguments people use for animal agriculture.

 

[citizenzen]

My application to adopt a cat wanted to know such things as
-Do I own or rent ? If i rent, I need written permission from the landlord
-What are my plans for the animal should I decide to move...or die ?
-What do I think of declawing ?
-How much am I prepared to spend on veterinary care and can I afford it ?

And to cap it all off, The rescue agency wanted me to sign a form granting them the right to do an on site inspection of my house at any time they please for the lifespan of the cat.

While I'll agree with you that on-site inspections of your home for the life of the cat is extreme, every other condition you list is a valid condition for anybody wishing to care for an animal to meet.

True Story ...

My wife takes care of a number of feral and stray cats down at the town's waterfront. My coworker, who lives in a very rural area, asked me the other day, "does your wife have any good mouser cat she can give me? The one I had disappeared the other day. I think it got taken by a mountain lion."

"Why would my wife want to give you a cat that you're going to leave out for mountain cats to eat?" I asked.

"It's not that bad," he replied, "that cat lasted for five years. My other cat didn't make it past the first week."



Needless to say, he didn't get a cat. And I didn't pass on his request to my wife. I didn't want her hating an otherwise nice and kind person. But even nice and kind people can be clueless when it comes to caring for animals.

 

[Dessi]

You seriously don't mean that about calling an animal he or she instead of an "it" do you? That's what I'm talking about, because that type of stuff just draws fanatics to the cause. These are the ones that like to personify their dog and think it understands them. They're the suicide bombers of the animal rights cause.

Insisting on using animate pronouns for pets == suicide bombing. Got it.

 

[Rat]

I think its a perfectly apt comparison. Interestingly enough, the argument for human slavery is identical to arguments people use for animal agriculture.

No, an argument that some people used for human slavery is similar to some arguments used for animal agriculture.