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Debunking Noah, and I need some help

UnrepentantSinner said:
Bah! What do Rabbi's know about reading Genesis compared with chess master chemists, hydrological engineers and pastors who have attended Bible College.
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They love their engineers, scientists, doctorate holders, Mensa members and chess champs, don't they. Its all part of the theater of dressing up as science and rationality what is patent absurdity in the light of modern understandings of the world.

I have just been reading chess master chemist Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati B.Sc. (Hons.), Ph.D., F.M. and his reply to criticisms made by TalkOrigins on the flood narrative.

I love the way he attempts to address the Koala problem:
Finally, the Updated and Expanded Answers Book [reviewed here] has a chapter about how koalas got to Australia, as well as many other “unanswerable” arguments by Isaak. Migration patterns explain some of them, but another important factor is introduction by humans. That’s how the rabbit reached Australia, and the Australian marsupials could have arrived with post-Babel humans. It’s also very important to note that, despite the caricatures by Isaak and other bibliosceptics, Noah did not need to gather the animals from different parts of the world: Gen. 1:9 indicates that there was one land mass before the Flood, and Gen. 6:20 indicates that God brought the animals to Noah.
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http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp

I cannot see how a man as educated and intelligent as Sarfati could think that this is anywhere near an adequate explanation for the distribution of Australian marsupials. The problems are obvious but he avoids addressing clear counter argument to avoid being forced to offer any further lame defense of his position. I think such level of intellectual dishonesty requires willful lying to your audience.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:
Heh, kind of funny that I chose to allude to him in particular. You might enjoy this thread on Theology Web where Glenn Morton and others smack him around when it comes to the Flood.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?11339-Too-many-fossils-for-a-global-flood
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I certainly knew who you were talking about. A friend sent me a copy of his "Greatest Hoax on Earth", which basically says, "We cannot know the past through empirical inquiry, therefore the Bible."

Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading it. I saw mention of another Antipodean there in geologist Andrew Snelling. Comfort, Ham, Sarfati and Snelling - It is disturbing how many of the leading YECs are from down under.
 
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Sideroxylon said:
They love their engineers, scientists, doctorate holders, Mensa members and chess champs, don't they. Its all part of the theater of dressing up as science and rationality what is patent absurdity in the light of modern understandings of the world.

I have just been reading chess master chemist Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati B.Sc. (Hons.), Ph.D., F.M. and his reply to criticisms made by TalkOrigins on the flood narrative.

I love the way he attempts to address the Koala problem:

http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp

I cannot see how a man as educated and intelligent as Sarfati could think that this is anywhere near an adequate explanation for the distribution of Australian marsupials. The problems are obvious but he avoids addressing clear counter argument to avoid being forced to offer any further lame defense of his position. I think such level of intellectual dishonesty requires willful lying to your audience.
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Noah did not need to gather the animals from different parts of the world: Gen. 1:9 indicates that there was one land mass before the Flood, and Gen. 6:20 indicates that God brought the animals to Noah.

IOW, goddidit.

Same as you get from any run-of -the -mill godbothrers proving once again that education and intelligence is no insurance against believing dumb things.
 
Sideroxylon said:
I certainly knew who you were talking about. A friend sent me a copy of his "Greatest Hoax on Earth", which basically says, "We cannot know the past through empirical inquiry, therefore the Bible."

Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading it. I saw mention of another Antipodean there in geologist Andrew Snelling. Comfort, Ham, Sarfati and Snelling - It is disturbing how many of the leading YECs are from down under.
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Leading and YEC seem a bit incongruous.
 
tsig said:
Noah did not need to gather the animals from different parts of the world: Gen. 1:9 indicates that there was one land mass before the Flood, and Gen. 6:20 indicates that God brought the animals to Noah.

IOW, goddidit.

Same as you get from any run-of -the -mill godbothrers proving once again that education and intelligence is no insurance against believing dumb things.
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True enough, mate, but when you listen to some of them defending the indefensible like a global flood, I think it is fair to question their honesty.
 
Resume said:
Leading and YEC seem a bit incongruous.
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You definitely have your leaders and followers. The leaders are the guys publishing the websites and books, and doing the talk circuit. And among these you have your top group.
 
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Mudcat said:
Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story:
Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode]
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In a boat the size of the ark crammed with animals (never mind the claimed number wouldn't fit) the animals would quickly die from heat buildup.

You can prove this by looking at modern day animal transports of a similar size, the massive powered ventilation required, and the temperature plots in a compartment when even a single ventilator goes down.
 
Marcus said:
In a boat the size of the ark crammed with animals (never mind the claimed number wouldn't fit) the animals would quickly die from heat buildup.
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Ok, so we have inadequate room for food storage, inadequate facilities to allow for heat dissipation, so how about adequate storage of potable water for the 40 days after the rains stopped? Except for drinking seawater, where would the larger beasts get their salt?

I'm betting that there were quite a few illiterate, yet skeptical bronze age shepards who, when first told this story, thought it was utter nonsense.
 
I like the allegory explanation the best, but only if you accept it without the cherry picking, i.e., the fantasy about the existence of God is also allegory.
 
Gawdzilla said:
The best debunking comes from the folks who are trying hardest to make it all true. http://accuracyingenesis.com/
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You don't get LIFE from DEAD Stuff

There is DEAD stuff and there is ALIVE stuff,
Our Earth is more than 99.996% DEAD stuff.
But, DEAD stuff don't all of a sudden become ALIVE stuff,
without some HELP!
And I SURE CAN'T DO IT!

Should we tell the plants this?:)
 
The story of the flood is just about the worst one to which to apply the idea of dropping belief in a story's accuracy and just learning from its message. Its message is horrible. There are stories out there that were meant not to be taken literally but to illustrate something for the audience to learn, but in most of those cases, at least the lesson has some kind of actual human value to it.
 
tsig said:
You don't get LIFE from DEAD Stuff

There is DEAD stuff and there is ALIVE stuff,
Our Earth is more than 99.996% DEAD stuff.
But, DEAD stuff don't all of a sudden become ALIVE stuff,
without some HELP!
And I SURE CAN'T DO IT!

Should we tell the plants this?:)
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The human body is ~70% water. So water must be alive.
 
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i suppose you could let your mom know that neither god or noah never actually existed and therefore any interraction between the two is therefore entirely fictitious or to use a scientific term "utter bollocks". (stop me if i'm being too technical)

EQ
 
You need help debunking Noah?

That's laughably one of the most cartoony stories in the Bible.

I'm teasing. I know the intention is more of "Help me choose the best way to debunk it for a devout believer"

But in all honesty I think just laughing it off is the best approach. The world's best zoos with an enormous staff to care for animals are much larger than an ark and doesn't hold anywhere near to every single animal on earth. How could animals from Antarctica, Australia, and every continent just walk to Noah?

No Christian ever has an answer when I ask why god wasn't allowed to put fairy tales in the Bible. It has fictional stories, poetry, proverbs, songs, biographies, etc. Yet for some reason Genesis is not allowed to be one big fairy tale?

The fact that most of us watch and read fiction and do not spend all our lives watching documentaries, it makes more sense for god to have lots of fiction in the Bible since he knows that is what entertains us and enlightens us more.
 
crhkrebs said:
Ok, so we have inadequate room for food storage, inadequate facilities to allow for heat dissipation, so how about adequate storage of potable water for the 40 days after the rains stopped? Except for drinking seawater, where would the larger beasts get their salt?
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Not to mention the logistics of only six people and one window available for the disposal of the vast quantities of manure produced.

Hell, with only one window heat dissipation is the least of your worries. What about fresh air? There couldn't have been that much oxygen available in the depths of the ship after the first day.
 
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