100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[Stellafane]

yes, had they stuck with marx's ideas, and not revised them, the story would have been very different.

To be serious a moment, neither you nor I have any clue as to whether or not the preceding statement is true. We can speculate all day whether or not Karl Marx's ideas -- or Groucho's for that matter -- might have worked if implemented a different way. The fact is, communism as it was implemented failed. Personally, I believe that human nature made this outcome more or less inevitable: sooner or later some animals will always want to be more equal than others.

 

[trustbutverify]

they were too busy lynching black folks.
wow, you seem to lack discernment.

To what do you attribute the fact that people are willing to risk their very lives to escape communist regimes, while others are willing to do the same to reach the borders of market governments? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[trustbutverify]

yes, had they stuck with marx's ideas, and not revised them, the story would have been very different.

Are you referring to the ideas expoused by Marx in "The Jewish Question"?

 

[bikerdruid]

Are you referring to the ideas expoused by Marx in "The Jewish Question"?

dude...do try and keep up, eh.
ever heard of one of marx's lesser works, the communist manifesto?
good to see that you always keep a 'jew-hater' card up your sleeve.
they are handy when you wish to pull off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

 

[trustbutverify]

dude, i am proud to say that you and i agree on absolutely nothing.

You taught at the university level?

 

[bikerdruid]

You taught at the university level?

...another example of off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

 

[trustbutverify]

dude...do try and keep up, eh.
ever heard of one of marx's lesser works, the communist manifesto?
good to see that you always keep a 'jew-hater' card up your sleeve.
they are handy when you wish to pull off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

Yes, I have heard of "The Communist Manifesto". I have read it. Have you ever read "The Jewish Question"?

I don't believe you've read either one. In fact, I don't believe you've read any of the complete works of Karl Marx.

 

[trustbutverify]

...another example of off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

Is that a yes or a no?

 

[trustbutverify]

dude...do try and keep up, eh.
ever heard of one of marx's lesser works, the communist manifesto?
good to see that you always keep a 'jew-hater' card up your sleeve.
they are handy when you wish to pull off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

You don't believe the writings of a political philosopher concerning the disposition of an oppressed minority might help in understanding his world perspective? And his attitude towards people in general?

 

[bikerdruid]

You taught at the university level?

...another example of off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

Is that a yes or a no?

if you have to ask, it is obvious you do not know the meaning of 'erroneous'.

 

[bikerdruid]

I don't believe you've read either one. In fact, I don't believe you've read any of the complete works of Karl Marx.

you are free to believe whatever you wish.
really, are you incapable of addressing a topic without baseless, erroneous and smarmy personal attacks?

 

[trustbutverify]

you are free to believe whatever you wish.
really, are you incapable of addressing a topic without baseless, erroneous and smarmy personal attacks?

It's a lifestyle choice.

 

[Virus]

dude...do try and keep up, eh.
ever heard of one of marx's lesser works, the communist manifesto?
good to see that you always keep a 'jew-hater' card up your sleeve.
they are handy when you wish to pull off topic, erroneous and smarmy innuendo.

I've read it. It's the greatest piece of utopian propaganda ever written and a blueprint for totalitarianism.

More important to look at what Communists did though, rather than what they said. And what they did was murder a hundred million people.

 

[Robrob]

More important to look at what Communists did though, rather than what they said. And what they did was murder a hundred million people.

What communist nation murdered a hundred million people?

 

[Toontown]

I'm not disagreeing with you. You can't prove that capitalism was the cause of these deaths. But I do think the most interesting aspect of the concept is that capitalism was by and large the economic environment where these deaths took place. Its interesting (IMO) that capitalism doesn't appear to stabilize or mitigate violence and unrest. One could easily say that isn't its role. However, the amount of war and civil unrest that have occurred under it indicate that it doesn't in itself bring peace and stability.

I actually find the topic quite interesting. Thanks, bikerdruid, for bringing it to the table.

Er...yeah. And I find it even more interesting that tens of billions of deaths have occurred since time immemorial - UNDER THE SUN.

Wow. That's something to think about. Is it possible that all deaths - except the ones that happen at night - are attributable to the sun?

To paraphrase citizenzen: You can't prove that the sun was the cause of these deaths. But I do think the most interesting aspect of the concept is that under the sun was by and large the environment where these deaths took place. Its interesting (IMO) that the sun doesn't appear to stabilize or mitigate violence and unrest. One could easily say that isn't its role. However, the amount of war and civil unrest that have occurred under it indicate that it doesn't in itself bring peace and stability.

Sure, you could argue that nearly everything, both good and bad, has happened under the sun, so maybe...but nevermind that. Thinking that way takes all the fun out of the whole 'sundunnit' thing . It's far more interesting to consider the possibility that the sun might actually be the primary cause of all human suffering and injustice.

I would also like to thank Bikerdruid for bringing this fascinating subject to the table. I mean, wow. Just wow. The sheer intellect of that is just...wow. Are these indoctrinator guys brilliant, or what?

 

[bikerdruid]

Er...yeah. And I find it even more interesting that tens of billions of deaths have occurred since time immemorial - UNDER THE SUN.

........................

I would also like to thank Bikerdruid for bringing this fascinating subject to the table. I mean, wow. Just wow. The sheer intellect of that is just...wow. Are these indoctrinator guys brilliant, or what?

funny, that...
.in dozens of posts and threads over the years, a few here have repeatedly made the claim that communists killed hundreds of millions of people.
that fact is joyfully accepted, without smarm and derision.
however, just intimate that capitalists could be responsible for killing people, and the smarm flows.

capitalists, or at least a number of them here, are hypocrites.

 

[Stellafane]

funny, that...
.in dozens of posts and threads over the years, a few here have repeatedly made the claim that communists killed hundreds of millions of people.
that fact is joyfully accepted, without smarm and derision.
however, just intimate that capitalists could be responsible for killing people, and the smarm flows.

capitalists, or at least a number of them here, are hypocrites.

You do bring up a very good point. Like you say, over the years there's been like dozens of posts by a few posters mentioning communist murders. (Bolding mine, but the words are in the preceding quote.) Dozens of posts over several years, hoo boy...that works out to what, something like one or two a month? Outrageous.

And of course, during all that time no one has ever had so much as a cross word to say about capitalism or the U.S.

It just isn't fair, I tell you.

 

[respect]

What system hasn't been used to justify war and theft?

No one is suggesting that there is any economic or political systems completely immune to abuses of power.

But some are clearly more conductive to it than others. In the case of communism, it demands that the people give up their economic rights and freedoms. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where such a system can stay in place for long without also removing political rights and freedoms from the people. A communist government that does not politically oppress its population will soon be an ex-government looking for jobs.

 

[trustbutverify]

Er...yeah. And I find it even more interesting that tens of billions of deaths have occurred since time immemorial - UNDER THE SUN.

Wow. That's something to think about. Is it possible that all deaths - except the ones that happen at night - are attributable to the sun?

To paraphrase citizenzen: You can't prove that the sun was the cause of these deaths. But I do think the most interesting aspect of the concept is that under the sun was by and large the environment where these deaths took place. Its interesting (IMO) that the sun doesn't appear to stabilize or mitigate violence and unrest. One could easily say that isn't its role. However, the amount of war and civil unrest that have occurred under it indicate that it doesn't in itself bring peace and stability.

Sure, you could argue that nearly everything, both good and bad, has happened under the sun, so maybe...but nevermind that. Thinking that way takes all the fun out of the whole 'sundunnit' thing . It's far more interesting to consider the possibility that the sun might actually be the primary cause of all human suffering and injustice.

I would also like to thank Bikerdruid for bringing this fascinating subject to the table. I mean, wow. Just wow. The sheer intellect of that is just...wow. Are these indoctrinator guys brilliant, or what?

The question is if the Sun is such a boon for the human race, why hasn't it played a more of a role in promoting peace and producing an environment where violent deaths are less likely?

 

[Virus]

Western Capitalism can't be that bad if even Communists can't bring themselves to leave it.

No doubt they know this and are deeply ashamed of it. The hatred they have for their civilization is an externalization of the hatred they have for themselves.