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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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They do not argue a motive Jay, not a meaningful one.....

Moving the goalposts.

Previously you said your approach was more effective than everyone else's because they wallowed around in details of this-or-that evidence without ever putting it in the context provided by a motive. You were better than they, you argued, because you actually had a theory for who was doing these things and why.

Now after it has been shown that they all argue motive too, you come back and say that their motives just aren't as good as yours. You don't realize that this changes the entire character of the argument you were trying to make earlier. You just gave up your qualitative advantage ("I take a different approach") for a quantitative refinement ("We all talk motives, but my motive is more credible").



No.

First, you can't decide which missions were used for what. First they're all warhead testing, then you're back to Apollo instrumenting the Moon, then you say only the unmanned Mercury missions tested warheads. We're still not sure what Gemini does, in your rapidly-changing story. When you have to change the hypothesis several times a day to accommodate facts you just learned about, that means it's obvious that the hypothesis didn't arise out of an examination of the facts, but rather out of your imagination.

Second, I and the other professional engineers ask you on a daily basis questions such as how your version of Mercury satisfies any meaningful test objective? You can't demonstrate even a coherent layman's understanding of test methodology, much less that of an expert. You're still making vague, handwaving claims -- not any detailed propositions. We're asking repeatedly for the details you say you have already provided! Where are they?



Start by proving what you've already claimed. Don't just go on to invent more stuff.



No. I was the one you said your motive had been previously suggested by Bennett and Percy, but I didn't say they did it in their book.



No, my guess is that you're reading it on Google Books, the same place you get all your quotes:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Dark_moon.html?id=uqi7qKZ5dIMC

But you mentioned Percy in the context of your attempts to analyze photographs a week or so ago. You said you had a photo analysis finding that "even Percy would envy." Clearly you knew enough about him before today to know what his particular idiom was. So were you bluffing earlier, or are you lying now?



But you can't make up your mind what claim you're going to make regarding the LM. In some versions it's an off-the-shelf LM that was operated automatically, freeing Tom Kelly's legendary team from any responsibility for fraud. In other versions Kelly knew exactly what the ship would be used for. In still other versions, the military bastardized the LM in some way to operate it as they wished, without Kelly's operational team being able to tell during the flight.

We grow weary waiting for you to test-fit all your tall tales du jour against the facts.



Translation: Google Books won't let me see all of it, so I don't want to be quizzed on it lest I reveal that I haven't really read it.



The book is well over 500 pages of extremely dense text, and an index that is worse than useless. Are you going to represent that in the 48 hours since you first claim to have heard of it, you obtained and read it sufficiently to tell everyone here what it does and does not contain? All the while being a full-time physician at a busy urban hospital?

But yes -- the book is worthless. I said you weren't the first to propose Apollo as a cover for military missions. Nothing in what I said means you should be trying to match every little detail from their book with your ever-shifting claims. Straw man.

They do not argue a motive Jay, not a meaningful one....

matt's point about the Dark Side of the Moon thing may be relevant. He is usually on target with things/references. So if these guys came up with my motive before me, I shall be the first to admit such is the case and will most certainly applaud them for it. I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due.

But Sibrel, Rene, Kaysing, White get no credit for genuine motive elucidation, NONE!
 
I am hardly an expert......

I find it hard to believe that someone who wants to be noted for his expertise in the militarization of space is unaware of the engineering realities associated with orbital platforms for deploying nuclear weapons.

No, there are no orbiting nukes. And if you understood orbital mechanics, you'd know that you wouldn't even need to entertain the possibility.



No, Patrick. Your layman's ignorance of how test methodology works in an industry you know nothing about, and your inability to absorb it when it is explained to you, do not mean you get to establish new "requirements" for everyone. Does it ever occur to you that the world just isn't obliged to work the way your simplistic, uninformed assumptions suggest it should?



No, Patrick -- you are not infallible.



The rockets used in Mercury were not the same ICBMs as used by the military. They were modified by NASA to be stronger and more reliable. How would that serve as a faithful test? You have stubbornly ignored several rebuttals pointing out that if you want to know if X works, you don't test Y.



Loaded language. I've noticed a sharp increase in this kind of verbal pummelling lately in your writings. You apply law-enforcement slang for criminals, not because you have any evidence of wrongdoing or because it's appropriate in historical research, but because it makes you sound tough. You seem to be living out some sort of "space cop" fantasy, rather than taking a credible historical approach. It makes me imagine that you're trying to kick down NASA's door and rush through the door with a pork-pie and .38 revolver and say, "All right, Neil the jig is up! We know all about the map!"

And more often these days you seem to be loading down your posts with phrases such as "actors in the Apollo fraud," or "according to the Apollo script." You generally don't refer to the procedures or people of Apollo without slipping in some sort of accusation. Real scholars are confident enough with their claims and support without having to beat the reader over the head with them in every sentence. You come off sounding very desperate.



So you have no actual evidence. You just suppose that they are "perps."

All you have, at every stage of your "theory" is a chain of suppositions. You have provided no evidence at all of any part of it.



Something need not be a lot of things in order also to have a military application. That doesn't mean anyting that has a potential military use was designed as such.

Computer programs originally developed to model fluid dynamics have been adapted to predict the movement of human crowds and vehicular traffic flow. Architects and city planners use them to design more effective buildings, roadways, and public spaces. The military also uses them to adjust convoy routes in real time. Does that automatically taint all those previous scientists, engineers, and architects as "perps" or military pawns?

This who fiasco stems from your personal interpretation of one sentence Joe Wampler made in a popular article, where he says they had to be careful about how they published certain data lest it assist our enemy at the time. From that you've extrapolated a whole elaborate house of cards that is based on nothing more substantial than your personal belief. The rest of us can see how Wampler's statement can be true, but your house of cards still be false. Why is that such a problematic process for you?

I am hardly an expert.....Simply a layman pointing out the obvious......
 
It's a metaphor, sorry if you were mislead.....

You used the phrase "planting bombs atop everyone's head" in the post to which I was responding. How does that not imply that nuclear weapons were positioned in space long-term?




For about the hundredth time, you have not even begun to provide any meaningful proof for this claim.




Jay gave you a basic overview of how ballistic missile warheads are actually tested that completely contradicts your assertions; is he lying, crazy, or incompetent? What's your answer, Patrick?

Also, you have failed to explain how these purported secret tests would have provided meaningful data, when the warheads didn't actually detonate, and in most cases the wrong launch vehicles were used.




That is absolutely true, but not in the way you claim it to be.




No. Only two US nuclear weapons have ever been "battlefield tested"; those two models were designed to be delivered by aircraft, and both had been retired by the time of Sputnik I.




You have provided zero evidence for this claim; further, as I mentioned, Project Mercury was concluded before the limited test-ban treaty took effect, and a live-fire Polaris test occurred in the same timeframe. So why the need for a secret testing program?




Begging the question of whether Project Mercury or any of the other programs were fraudulent. Also defaming a large number of American heroes, including several who gave their lives in pursuit of space exploration. :mad:




Neil Armstrong and Harrison Schmitt were civilians. Further, the term "soldier" refers to a member of a nation's army. There were no US Army astronauts prior to the Space Shuttle program. Fail.




GPS was originally designed to allow American ballistic missile submarines to fix their positions more accurately so that they could launch their missiles more accurately, and to allow American bombers to navigate to their targets more accurately. However, GPS was encrypted so that the Soviets couldn't use it for the same purposes (a far less accurate, non-encrypted system was included for civilian use). These facts were public knowledge years before the first GPS satellite was ever launched. So please explain why all the nations of the world didn't "freak out" over GPS.

As noted, even if the LRRRs were intended as targeting devices (and you have provided no evidence that they were, nor have you explained how they could be used as such), there was nothing to prevent the Soviets from using them as well. So I pose the question, Patrick, why would the US military have bothered to do this, and why would they have tried to keep the true purpose a secret?




Please explain what this has to do with your argument.

Finally, you still haven't answered my original question: Why wasn't the side that first put nuclear weapons in space (whether temporarily or indefinitely) outed by the other side?

It's a metaphor, sorry if you were mislead.....Sword of Damocles type thing.

They would have to be crazy I think to leave nukes up there because of problems with discovery by the public. Too risky for that reason...

Again, planting bombs overhead is/was a figure of speech/metaphor.....

They flew nukes through the air a' la Mercury test flights to check on nuke viability/functionality.
 
I am hardly desperate Jay, I feel rather relaxed in all of this actually.....

It was a non-correction. You wrote at length on why the computer missed the target, in the guise of telling him that it hadn't missed. I simply revealed your hair-split.

You seem to be trying desperately to establish yourself as some sort of teacher of Apollo elements, so that some imaginary lurker will see you "correcting" your critics, and parlaying your crude understanding as if were that of a master. You drop names of people who disagree with you, cite works you haven't read, and embark on lengthy and irrelevant descriptions where they don't belong. Yet you ignore meaningful questions and detailed rebuttals. Who do you think you're fooling?

I am hardly desperate Jay, I feel rather relaxed in all of this actually.....Quite confident.

The guy, vtbub, needs help with fundamentals, what can I say. His was an honest post. I was just trying to steer him in the right direction.

He may well be the one who proves me wrong ultimately, though I think not.
 
Same with White.....

As noted, Rene claimed that pi is equal to 3.146264. Any bright secondary school student who's taken geometry can demonstrate that this is incorrect (see here). What does that say about Rene's credibility, Patrick?

And Jarrah White is still offering to sell people Rene's pamphlet "proving" this incorrect value. What does that say about his credibility?

Same with White as with Rene.....

Agreed his overall vision is anemic, but the guy makes good points from time to time and his skill with film is undeniable. I give him plenty of credit. He, White, should be applauded by the community of alternative Apollo historians.
 
I know, I feel silly, on the other hand.......

Except that's the wrong book, as has been pointed out to you already. How about you address the long list of substantive questions that you have outstanding instead of going off on another pointless detoru?

I know, I feel silly.

However, on the other hand.......now that I know, I am super excited to see if these guys came up with the same ideas I have.

On some level, it would not surprise me.
 
I am checking the Kelly book and will respond after I have reviewed the book...

Yes, his posts imply just that. And the proposition they imply is correct. That proposition has been verified according to the most authoritative source that can exist: the actual computer program code. And just to be safe, it is further covered in depth in a book from which you have quoted and must therefore consider correct.

As I've already written, your suggestion that the LM could land on the lunar surface without a human pilot is based on your personal interpretation of words like "autopilot" and "automatic" as used in an article in the popular press. You interpret these words to mean "without human intervention," but that is not a correct understanding of those words, either in their broad context of avionics or in the specific context of the lunar module's control system. And to be sure, specific examples of required pilot input were given to you.

You appear unable to distinguish interpretation from fact. That makes you a poor reporter of fact, and a poor analyst of the situations from which those facts arose. You cling desperately to one brief article, and ignore the reams upon reams of technical data that -- while consistent with the article's theme -- do not support your beliefs.



Irrelevant, since Loss Leader will undoubtedly call upon me to defend it according to my substantial education, expertise, and experience. And it is highly disingenuous of you to accuse Loss Leader of dereliction when you have failed for months now to address the actual demonstrated and documented behavior of the Apollo lunar module. You are the one running from the debate, Patrick. Make no mistake.

Is that why you've suddenly come up with this new claim that the military secretly modified the lunar module? Is it so that you'll have some reason to disbelieve what other people tell you about the technical details of flying it? Is it so that every time I show you just how and why the lunar module couldn't be flown without a human pilot, you can just suppose that this must be one of the ways in which the military changed it?

Of course you've provided zero evidence that this actually occurred, despite my numerous requests. How does your claim then achieve any more strength than wishful thinking?

I am checking the Kelly book and will respond after having reviewed Kelly's book and other relevant materials from the Grumman engineering team.
 
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The projections for the Apollo 10 and 11 flown maps are the same.....

Differently gridded maps are a function of different projections. There is nothing inherently wrong, or surprising, in having maps gridded differently. That you think there is some great mystery about one map being gridded differently from another map merely exposes your woeful misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of cartography.

Just because a map is gridded differently from another map does not mean that the features of the earth or moon have shifted; if you actually believe that is implied by a map with a different grid then quite frankly I am amazed. I had not thought it was possible for someone who is old enough to write with a relatively good grasp of grammar and spelling (though poor and immature in content and understanding) to be so ignorant of something which is taught to schoolchildren in the UK, and I suspect in every developed country in the world.

Every time you claim intentional misgridding you will be showing yourself up as a wilfully ignorant person, given how many times you have been corrected on this.

As to the highlighted part, as long as you persist in making kindergarten errors while claiming to be an educated person, what do you think I am forced to believe?

The projections for the Apollo 10 and 11 flown maps are the same.....Check that out for yourself.

Also, if such were the case, that the map was accidentally misgridded, they would have mentioned the misgridding/projection problems as a reason as to why Collins and the NASA boys in Houston could not find the Eagle. Nothing was ever said and so the misgridding "secrecy" is confirmed as ever so ever so ever so intentional.....,
 
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The point about the bet between the Grumman engineers and the Grumman pilots has to do with the perception on their part of at least the POSSIBILITY, HOWEVER LIKELY OR REMOTE, of an automated/non humanly piloted lunar module landing Loss Leader.

The equipment was viewed by the engineers and pilots at Grumman and the character played by Jim Lovell in the fraud's script as having the capacity to land without pilot input, however likely or unlikely such an event's actual occurrence might have been as viewed by those in and out of the Apollo fraud know, not to mention however likely or unlikely such an event's actual occurrence might have been viewed by the Grumman pilots and engineers themselves, those involved in the "famous" wager.

Are you arguing that in the article the Jim Lovell character is presented as having said something other than that the lunar module had the capacity to land without human piloting? Are you arguing Loss Leader that the Grumman pilots and engineers were NOT of the opinion that the lunar module could be landed without human piloting?

You're arguing with straw men. You have inverted the meaning of the posts and are now arguing with that inverted meaning.
 
Fair enough, I read the article differently.

You read the article incorrectly. You cannot seem to comprehend that there is a right and a wrong answer to the question of LM automation, and that your belief has no power to change that.

I don't have to quibble with you over the meaning of some article or the words it contains, because I know the facts independently of the article. You're trying to warp the argument into what some Smithsonian author meant. The argument is not what the article says, but how the lunar module behaved. Every single bit of factual evidence available to us confirms that the lunar module required a human pilot at every step of its operation, despite that some of the tasks a pilot would ordinarily have to perform were being done by a computer program.

With a comprehensive knowledge of how the lunar module autopilot worked, I can go back and understand what the Smithsonian author is trying to say. First, after the initial braking phrase, the lunar module can be operated either manually or automatically. In Program 64, the pilot may designate a new landing point, which the autopilot then translates into specific engine and steering commands, but he is not obligated to.

And second -- at any time P64 is supposed to be running, he can switch over to P66. P66 requires manual attitude control, but has a semi-automatic throttle. This is what a few of the pilots elected to do, Armstrong especially. And this is what the Grumman folks are talking about. When there is a choice between automatic or manual control, then it makes sense to debate over which one to use.

But it doesn't make sense to bet on whether to fly in manual or automatic when the pilot has no choice. P64 doesn't take the ship all the way down to the surface. This is the part you don't seem to realize. Because that program's internal representation of the lunar surface contour is too coarse for terminal control, and because altitude data from the landing radar is not precise enough, P64 stops working at an indicated altitude of about 200 feet. The pilot is then required to acknowledge the transfer to P66 and take the attitude and descent-rate controls to fly the terminal maneuver manually. If he did not do this, the ship would crash.

You wrongly believe that because the Smithsonian author focuses the subset of the landing procedure that has an option for automatic or manual control, that should characterize the entire landing. This is the kind of mistake you make when you Google around for ammunition to fire at your critics, rather than trying to understand the whole problem.
 
Regardless, my point about the map satnds and stands well......
In this very thread, you have demonstrated that you cannot tell radians, from degrees, from gradients. No, your point does not stand at all.

Whether one can do long division or not,
If one cannot do long division, one has no business doing rocket science.

the Apollo 11 LAM-2 flown Map's status remains unchanged. At the center of its landing ellipse are the coordinates for the targeted landing site as given in the 6 July 1969 Apollo 11 Press Kit; 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east. No none can change that FACT. One need not even be able to add and subtract to understand the horrific implications.
Yet you have yet to provide any evidence outside of your supposition.

I note that you have also ignored the responses provided to you. When will you be addressing those?
 
Is it not the case then Garrison that......

Patrick it's been demolished every single time you bring it, that's the only fact. Your knowledge of cartography is actually worse than your maths. It's past time you stopped with the dodging and addressed the hard issues. Explain where NASA got all of those moon rocks if the Apollo astronauts didn't collect them? Come up with one shred of evidence for your automated/modified LM and all those military 'toys'. Explain all those photgraphs and video of astronauts on the moon that is back by the telemetry and the rocks? Come on Patrick, show us you have some semblance of an argument instead of flaunting your ingnorance of maps and mathematics time after time.

Is it not the case then Garrison that the landing ellipse center on the LAM-2 map is at the very coordinates listed in the Press Kit as those of the targeted landing site; 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east, or am I wrong about that?

I thought that was a pretty straight forward undemolishable simple point of looking..... No?
 
I am checking the Kelly book and will respond after have reviewed Kelly's book...

You mean after frantically searching through the excerpts of it available on Google Books.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Moon_Lander.html?id=W2IDQgAACAAJ

Kelly's book is the wrong book. He doesn't even discuss the software, and he only mentions the chief software engineer, Don Eyles, once. I already gave you the appropriate references.

...and other relevant materials from the Grumman engineering team.

Please be sure to give verifiable references for these "other relevant materials," since you seem to have a hard time straying from popular magazines and Google Books.

While you're at it, please comment on the Luminary computer program code.
 
The projections for the Apollo 10 and 11 flown maps are the same.....Check that out for yourself.

Also, if such were the case, that the map was accidentally misgridded, they would have mentioned the misgridding/projection problems as a reason as to why Collins and the NASA boys in Houston could not find the Eagle. Nothing was ever said and so the misgridding "secrecy" is confirmed as ever so ever so ever so intentional.....,
"Misgridding" is something you have made up out of whole cloth. There was no misgridding. Differently gridded maps are NOT misgridded; it is common for maps which are gridded differently to be used together and a correction factor applied to one or the other. There is no one "correct" grid. That you still appear to be unable to grasp this despite it being explained to you several times by many people merely serves to demonstrate once again your ignorance of cartography, your inability to read for comprehension and to learn.

You cannot ignore the substantive points which people like JayUtah make if you wish to retain any shred of credibility. You are on a hiding to nothing here as every one of your 11 so-called "points" have been thoroughly refuted. Were you to have the education and understanding you claim, you would realise this and withdraw the points you have made thus far.
 
I am hardly an expert.....Simply a layman pointing out the obvious getting it wrong.

Fixed that for you.

If all this is so obvious, why has it escaped all the experts? And if it's so obvious, why are you so adamant that you're the only one who sees it? Why do you think you would deserve being written up in the history books for seeing the obvious?
 
I read about why it started late Jay. We have been over this material have we not? I don't think any of us disagree on the story line there with respect to how it is that the bird went long...

So if someone else says the bird went long, you write several paragraphs trying to tell him how wrong he is. Then you try to tell us we're all in agreement after someone calls you on your hair-split. Whatever.
 
I need not go over this in too much detail again...

But you do anyway, and it's the same as it has always been -- a dogged repetition of your original belief, with no accommodation for the rebuttal.

No math is required to understand this deception.

Math is required to understand how it is not a deception. You think it's a deception because you don't understand the math.
 
What????

Those are great points Erock. So far they all stand and stand well.....

That's it is it? I posted Jayutah's complete dismantling of everything you wrote...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7869912&postcount=5621

And your reply to the rebuttal is, 'they stand well'?
kool_105-albums-animated-gif-s-picture18876-facepalm-anim-test-03.gif


Now try answering the rebuttal, go on, make a first - this is just such tedious behaviour
smi20.gif
 
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