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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Uninitiated means someone who has never looked at the original SCIENCE articles previously....

You missed the important parts of my post in favour of an irrelevant answer. Do you not realise I was being sarcastic? You are as uninitiated a person in the sciences pertaining to Apollo as you could get.

Why do you think your opinion carries more weight than experts dismantling your hopeless arguments?

Explain how 840lbs of Moon rocks came about, that convinced experts in the relevant fields of their veracity.


It is just so facepalmingly obvious why you never answer 90% of the posts back at you, or hardly any of the questions. You are out of your depth.

How ironic that you don't answer the questions in a post pointing out that you don't answer the questions:rolleyes:
 
Actually beachnut, the "mathematics" of the Apollo fraud is quite simple....

One doesn't even need "mathematics" per se.

Which is good because as you demonstrated during the Apollo budget debacle you don't know the difference between multiplying and dividing.
 
Nuclear weapons may or may not be in space in any kind of permanent arrangement....
You are stating that you have no idea if such projects exist in reality. We know this already.

I would say that more likely than not nukes ARE NOT positioned in such a way that they orbit above our heads 24/7, though I do not know that to not be the case for a fact.
And again, you state that you have no knowledge of such a project or program.

They, nukes, might be floating above us 24/7, as unlikely as I personally think that to be the case.

Again with the repetition. We get it. You don't know.

Nukes did fly through space regularly on the front end of missiles during extensive testing in the 1960s.
Indeed.

Much of this testing occurred under the guise of the American manned space programs given the terms of the Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, not to mention public safety concerns. They had to have been tested in such a way.

So of the hundreds of launches, what was "special" that had to be hidden by means of faked manned missions? You don't know that either.

Otherwise, we would never know, we never would have known, that these missiles/ICBMs/SLBMs were functional to begin with, and that given their "live warhead" flight tested functionality, we were safe from a Ruskie attack.
Jay already toasted you on testing principles, but as usual you ignore posts inconvenient for your conjecture.

As an engineer by training and profession, I concur with Jay, and you are flat out wrong.


Our nuclear arsenal was and is a well tested arsenal.
Indeed YOUR arsenal is. You constitute less than 5% of the worlds people. I am not American, nor are most of the people in the world. Lay off your racist bias.

Battlefield tested, meaning SPACE TESTED. THIS MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST BE THE CASE. IT CANNOT BE OTHERWISE.
Already explained ad nauseum. You are not an engineer of any colour. Your unevidenced expectations are not evidence, as you have no training or experience in those fields.

Mercury was a program that tested ICBMs. I did not say that it was a program that parked ICBMs in space.
Wrong. Mercury was a manned space flight system which used boosters proven on the preceding ICBM testing.

By the way, this places the 7 Mercury Program astronauts provisionally on my list of perps.
Childish slur noted. Lack of content noted.


More likely than not, these 7 knew of Mercury's military roots/intentions. These 7 astronauts may not have known that Apollo was fraudulent, but more likely than not would have. Another way to say this is that John Glenn probably knows Apollo was fake, and knew it all along. This, given his role in NASA's Mercury Program, a "civilian front" for an ICBM testing program. Ditto for the Gemini astronauts. These men are soldiers, front to back, top to bottom.
In a single paragraph, 3 wild claims, yet not a single piece of evidence.


Space IS WEAPONIZED SpitfireIX. THE LRRR IS A WEAPON. It was used to obtain data employed in the targeting of ICBMs. IT IS A WEAPON PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Something need not be a nuke to be a weapon.
Why didn't the Russians use it against the US? It is a corner cube reflector, it's not like you can turn it on and off.
Why would the US provide such a facility free gratis to the USSR?
Why would the US provide for free what, according to you, would allow the USSR to more accurately target US cities?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't warheads considerably more rugged than the missles designed to deliver them? They really shouldn't need identical testing to missies even if carrying one inside a manned space capsule on top of a relativly gentle booster like the S-V did somehow qualify as identical testing.
 
I have made the claim that I am the first to propose a meaningful motive for the Apollo Program fraud, actually for fraud in the context of all the American manned space programs. The programs are civilian covers for weapons testing and weapons deployment in outer space.
You have provided no meaningful motive.
You have provided no evidence of fraud.
You have made unsupported claims only.

Mercury/Gemini/Apollo/Shuttle sought to test ICBMs themselves such as was the case with the Mercury Program, set up equipment to track ICBMs, set up equipment to assist with ICBM targeting among many many many other things. My previous posts are already rather detailed in providing examples of American manned space program weapons testing and weapons deployment. There is much more to come from me in this regard.
Sure, because Saturn V and the Shuttle are like ICBMs, not.

Others such as Sibrel have proposed meaningless motives such as "American vanity", our trying to "one-up" the Ruskie's technologically. This makes little if any sense at all.
What exactly differentiates you from Sibrel?

Matt claimed in his post at 5721 that I plagiarized Mary Bennet's and David S. Percy's DARK MOON(APOLLO AND THE WHISTLE BLOWERS), Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999, 20002, 2009. I had never looked at the book previously but own a copy and now have it here before me.
And?

I find nothing in the book about testing nuclear warheads, ICBMs, planting military equipment on the moon, or in libration points. As a matter of fact, in chapter 4 matt, the authors even question if the LM could have landed under any circumstances given its construction and so forth. Keep in mind I am of the opinion that the LM landed and landed quite well. Matter of fact, at this point in my research, I view the lunar module designed by Kelly and the Grumman team as THE piece of machinery that carried the military instruments referenced in my previous posts to the moon.

Non-sequiter. We are discussing your claims, not Percy's and Bennet's.

I do not want to waste anyone's time, least of all my own.
Really? Then stop with the repetitious walls of text which say nothing in thousands of words.

This book is near worthless.
Yay. Something we can agree on.

But <big snip>
Doing a wall of text on Percy and Bennett is a little pointless. They have been soundly battered here and elsewhere. You are simply attempting to pad your post to give the appearance of substance. Drop it, and stick to your own conjectures.

I looked up LRRR(abbreviated and spelled out in full) in the book's index and it was no where to be found.
Your Google-fu is weak. There is much out there.

Perhaps LRRRs are covered in the book, but planting one on the moon and using the device to measure the strength of the earth;'s gravitational field is the farthest thing in the minds of the book's authors with respect to accounting for Apollo's motives as something can be. With respect to their Apollo Program farmd orientation, these guys live on another planet, certainly not mine.
Try reading for comprehension.

Check it out for yourself matt if you have not read this book for yourself. IT IS BEYOND FUNNY!!!!! this book is. Not to mention absolutely worthless when it comes to understanding Apollo.
No research.
No links.
No evidence.
No surprise.
 
Matt claimed in his post at 5721 that I plagiarized Mary Bennet's and David S. Percy's DARK MOON(APOLLO AND THE WHISTLE BLOWERS), Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999, 20002, 2009. I had never looked at the book previously but own a copy and now have it here before me.



I said you plagiarized it from Dark Side of the Moon. But you knew that. That is why you are posting walls of text to try to deflect attention away from your plagiarism by intentionally mentioning the wrong book hoping I would correct you and ignore your plagiarism.
 
What does orbital mechanics have to do with Armstrong's allegedly being surprised by large boulders and west crater Jay? The simulated trip down took them long because the landing sequence started late.

And try to work out why it started late.

I may not be an orbital mechanics expert...

You are obviously not an orbital mechanics expert.

Please elaborate......

No. I've elaborated for you on numerous occasions, only to have you simply ignore what I write. When you have at least addressed my response to your 11 points, then you may ask for elaboration on this and other points. The time has come when I will no longer spoon-feed you expert information. Since my expertise is now well established among the readers of this thread, I will now simply point out your errors and wait for you to figure out how to correct them.
 
One doesn't even need "mathematics" per se. One need simply be able to read numbers and understand what they mean in the context of a map, nothing else.

And you can't even do that. Your error here has been explained to you numerous times, and it does involve mathematics.

The Apollo 11 LAM-2 flown Map of Michael Collins is gridded inacurately and intentionally so.

No, it's simply a different projection. Projections are the mathematical expression of practical cartography.

And your claim that this was done intentionally is a purely circular argument. You don't understand what was done, so you conclude it had to have been done "intentionally" so as to mislead.

Have you figured out yet that no one buys into your arguments for motive when you just invent a motive?
 
Well Rene pressed the Apollo issue in a way that it had not been pressed before..He was not an unintelligent man matt. He was quite capable and made some very good points.

Ralph Rene was scientifically illiterate, shown to be dishonest, and, in many people's estimation, mentally ill. That you would consider him an authority of any kind speaks volumes for your work.
 
The equipment was viewed by the engineers and pilots at Grumman and the character played by Jim Lovell in the fraud's script as having the capacity to land without pilot input...

Utterly false.

I have given you specific examples of what input was required from the pilot, verified from the actual computer program code. You have yet to address any of that, except to make the vague claim that the military modified the LM in some way unknown to its manufacturer. And you have yet to describe or substantiate those modifications.

You are the one interpreting words such as "automatic" and "autopilot" to mean "without the need for a human pilot." That is your interpretation of what you're reading, and I have confirmed many times that it is the wrong interpretation. Further, your source explicitly says that the autopilot relieved some of the tasks from the pilots. That should have given you some clue that the corrections your critics are offering is the right answer.

Are you arguing Loss Leader that the Grumman pilots and engineers were NOT of the opinion that the lunar module could be landed without human piloting?

The Grumman pilots and engineers are not expressing the opinion in your article that the LM could be landed without a human pilot.

Further, if you had actually read the Frank O'Brien's book from which you quoted, you would have seen this covered at length. But since you merely mined a quote from the excerpt you read on Google Books, you aren't aware of what your sources really say.
 
Responding to the reference to William Karel's, Dark Side of the Moon, Patrick writes:
I never read that book...

I actually own a copy.

It's a film. Explain how you can claim to own it, yet get wrong what it actually is.

I have listed my 11 points of fraud and my incomplete list of perpetrators.

Yes, and I responded to it at length, as requested. And you have utterly ignored the response, yet have the temerity to ask me to elaborate again on other points.
 
I have made the claim that I am the first to propose a meaningful motive for the Apollo Program fraud...

Moving the goalposts.

Previously you said your approach was more effective than everyone else's because they wallowed around in details of this-or-that evidence without ever putting it in the context provided by a motive. You were better than they, you argued, because you actually had a theory for who was doing these things and why.

Now after it has been shown that they all argue motive too, you come back and say that their motives just aren't as good as yours. You don't realize that this changes the entire character of the argument you were trying to make earlier. You just gave up your qualitative advantage ("I take a different approach") for a quantitative refinement ("We all talk motives, but my motive is more credible").

My previous posts are already rather detailed in providing examples of American manned space program weapons testing and weapons deployment.

No.

First, you can't decide which missions were used for what. First they're all warhead testing, then you're back to Apollo instrumenting the Moon, then you say only the unmanned Mercury missions tested warheads. We're still not sure what Gemini does, in your rapidly-changing story. When you have to change the hypothesis several times a day to accommodate facts you just learned about, that means it's obvious that the hypothesis didn't arise out of an examination of the facts, but rather out of your imagination.

Second, I and the other professional engineers ask you on a daily basis questions such as how your version of Mercury satisfies any meaningful test objective? You can't demonstrate even a coherent layman's understanding of test methodology, much less that of an expert. You're still making vague, handwaving claims -- not any detailed propositions. We're asking repeatedly for the details you say you have already provided! Where are they?

There is much more to come from me in this regard.

Start by proving what you've already claimed. Don't just go on to invent more stuff.

Matt claimed in his post at 5721 that I plagiarized Mary Bennet's and David S. Percy's DARK MOON...

No. I was the one you said your motive had been previously suggested by Bennett and Percy, but I didn't say they did it in their book.

I had never looked at the book previously but own a copy and now have it here before me.

No, my guess is that you're reading it on Google Books, the same place you get all your quotes:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Dark_moon.html?id=uqi7qKZ5dIMC

But you mentioned Percy in the context of your attempts to analyze photographs a week or so ago. You said you had a photo analysis finding that "even Percy would envy." Clearly you knew enough about him before today to know what his particular idiom was. So were you bluffing earlier, or are you lying now?

Matter of fact, at this point in my research, I view the lunar module designed by Kelly and the Grumman team as THE piece of machinery that carried the military instruments referenced in my previous posts to the moon.

But you can't make up your mind what claim you're going to make regarding the LM. In some versions it's an off-the-shelf LM that was operated automatically, freeing Tom Kelly's legendary team from any responsibility for fraud. In other versions Kelly knew exactly what the ship would be used for. In still other versions, the military bastardized the LM in some way to operate it as they wished, without Kelly's operational team being able to tell during the flight.

We grow weary waiting for you to test-fit all your tall tales du jour against the facts.

I do not want to waste anyone's time, least of all my own. This book is near worthless.

Translation: Google Books won't let me see all of it, so I don't want to be quizzed on it lest I reveal that I haven't really read it.

Check it out for yourself matt if you have not read this book for yourself.

The book is well over 500 pages of extremely dense text, and an index that is worse than useless. Are you going to represent that in the 48 hours since you first claim to have heard of it, you obtained and read it sufficiently to tell everyone here what it does and does not contain? All the while being a full-time physician at a busy urban hospital?

But yes -- the book is worthless. I said you weren't the first to propose Apollo as a cover for military missions. Nothing in what I said means you should be trying to match every little detail from their book with your ever-shifting claims. Straw man.
 
It was not an answer, it was a very simple correction....

...thereby causing the computer to miss the intended target. Open-loop control is famous for missing targets and not knowing it has missed.

What a non-answer.

And really? You don't see nomuse's point? Probably because you have yet to answer any of the questions asking you why NASA committed all these egregious "errors" that have gone unnoticed for decades by legions of highly-trained professionals, just so some anonymous self-proclaimed doctor could discover them.

It was not an answer, it was a very simple correction....
 
They, nukes, might be floating above us 24/7, as unlikely as I personally think that to be the case.

I find it hard to believe that someone who wants to be noted for his expertise in the militarization of space is unaware of the engineering realities associated with orbital platforms for deploying nuclear weapons.

No, there are no orbiting nukes. And if you understood orbital mechanics, you'd know that you wouldn't even need to entertain the possibility.

They had to have been tested in such a way.

No, Patrick. Your layman's ignorance of how test methodology works in an industry you know nothing about, and your inability to absorb it when it is explained to you, do not mean you get to establish new "requirements" for everyone. Does it ever occur to you that the world just isn't obliged to work the way your simplistic, uninformed assumptions suggest it should?

THIS MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST BE THE CASE. IT CANNOT BE OTHERWISE.

No, Patrick -- you are not infallible.

Mercury was a program that tested ICBMs.

The rockets used in Mercury were not the same ICBMs as used by the military. They were modified by NASA to be stronger and more reliable. How would that serve as a faithful test? You have stubbornly ignored several rebuttals pointing out that if you want to know if X works, you don't test Y.

By the way, this places the 7 Mercury Program astronauts provisionally on my list of perps.

Loaded language. I've noticed a sharp increase in this kind of verbal pummelling lately in your writings. You apply law-enforcement slang for criminals, not because you have any evidence of wrongdoing or because it's appropriate in historical research, but because it makes you sound tough. You seem to be living out some sort of "space cop" fantasy, rather than taking a credible historical approach. It makes me imagine that you're trying to kick down NASA's door and rush through the door with a pork-pie and .38 revolver and say, "All right, Neil the jig is up! We know all about the map!"

And more often these days you seem to be loading down your posts with phrases such as "actors in the Apollo fraud," or "according to the Apollo script." You generally don't refer to the procedures or people of Apollo without slipping in some sort of accusation. Real scholars are confident enough with their claims and support without having to beat the reader over the head with them in every sentence. You come off sounding very desperate.

More likely than not, these 7 knew of Mercury's military roots/intentions.

So you have no actual evidence. You just suppose that they are "perps."

All you have, at every stage of your "theory" is a chain of suppositions. You have provided no evidence at all of any part of it.

Something need not be a nuke to be a weapon.

Something need not be a lot of things in order also to have a military application. That doesn't mean anyting that has a potential military use was designed as such.

Computer programs originally developed to model fluid dynamics have been adapted to predict the movement of human crowds and vehicular traffic flow. Architects and city planners use them to design more effective buildings, roadways, and public spaces. The military also uses them to adjust convoy routes in real time. Does that automatically taint all those previous scientists, engineers, and architects as "perps" or military pawns?

This who fiasco stems from your personal interpretation of one sentence Joe Wampler made in a popular article, where he says they had to be careful about how they published certain data lest it assist our enemy at the time. From that you've extrapolated a whole elaborate house of cards that is based on nothing more substantial than your personal belief. The rest of us can see how Wampler's statement can be true, but your house of cards still be false. Why is that such a problematic process for you?
 
Nuclear weapons may or may not be in space in any kind of permanent arrangement....

I would say that more likely than not nukes ARE NOT positioned in such a way that they orbit above our heads 24/7, though I do not know that to not be the case for a fact. They, nukes, might be floating above us 24/7, as unlikely as I personally think that to be the case.


You used the phrase "planting bombs atop everyone's head" in the post to which I was responding. How does that not imply that nuclear weapons were positioned in space long-term?

Nukes did fly through space regularly on the front end of missiles during extensive testing in the 1960s. Much of this testing occurred under the guise of the American manned space programs given the terms of the Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, not to mention public safety concerns.


For about the hundredth time, you have not even begun to provide any meaningful proof for this claim.

They had to have been tested in such a way. Otherwise, we would never know, we never would have known, that these missiles/ICBMs/SLBMs were functional to begin with, and that given their "live warhead" flight tested functionality, we were safe from a Ruskie attack.


Jay gave you a basic overview of how ballistic missile warheads are actually tested that completely contradicts your assertions; is he lying, crazy, or incompetent? What's your answer, Patrick?

Also, you have failed to explain how these purported secret tests would have provided meaningful data, when the warheads didn't actually detonate, and in most cases the wrong launch vehicles were used.

Our nuclear arsenal was and is a well tested arsenal.


That is absolutely true, but not in the way you claim it to be.

Battlefield tested, meaning SPACE TESTED. THIS MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST BE THE CASE. IT CANNOT BE OTHERWISE.


No. Only two US nuclear weapons have ever been "battlefield tested"; those two models were designed to be delivered by aircraft, and both had been retired by the time of Sputnik I.

Mercury was a program that tested ICBMs. I did not say that it was a program that parked ICBMs in space.


You have provided zero evidence for this claim; further, as I mentioned, Project Mercury was concluded before the limited test-ban treaty took effect, and a live-fire Polaris test occurred in the same timeframe. So why the need for a secret testing program?

By the way, this places the 7 Mercury Program astronauts provisionally on my list of perps. More likely than not, these 7 knew of Mercury's military roots/intentions. These 7 astronauts may not have known that Apollo was fraudulent, but more likely than not would have. Another way to say this is that John Glenn probably knows Apollo was fake, and knew it all along. This, given his role in NASA's Mercury Program, a "civilian front" for an ICBM testing program. Ditto for the Gemini astronauts.


Begging the question of whether Project Mercury or any of the other programs were fraudulent. Also defaming a large number of American heroes, including several who gave their lives in pursuit of space exploration. :mad:

These men are soldiers, front to back, top to bottom.


Neil Armstrong and Harrison Schmitt were civilians. Further, the term "soldier" refers to a member of a nation's army. There were no US Army astronauts prior to the Space Shuttle program. Fail.

Space IS WEAPONIZED SpitfireIX. THE LRRR IS A WEAPON. It was used to obtain data employed in the targeting of ICBMs. IT IS A WEAPON PLAIN AND SIMPLE.


GPS was originally designed to allow American ballistic missile submarines to fix their positions more accurately so that they could launch their missiles more accurately, and to allow American bombers to navigate to their targets more accurately. However, GPS was encrypted so that the Soviets couldn't use it for the same purposes (a far less accurate, non-encrypted system was included for civilian use). These facts were public knowledge years before the first GPS satellite was ever launched. So please explain why all the nations of the world didn't "freak out" over GPS.

As noted, even if the LRRRs were intended as targeting devices (and you have provided no evidence that they were, nor have you explained how they could be used as such), there was nothing to prevent the Soviets from using them as well. So I pose the question, Patrick, why would the US military have bothered to do this, and why would they have tried to keep the true purpose a secret?

Something need not be a nuke to be a weapon.


Please explain what this has to do with your argument.

Finally, you still haven't answered my original question: Why wasn't the side that first put nuclear weapons in space (whether temporarily or indefinitely) outed by the other side?
 
It was not an answer, it was a very simple correction....

It was a non-correction. You wrote at length on why the computer missed the target, in the guise of telling him that it hadn't missed. I simply revealed your hair-split.

You seem to be trying desperately to establish yourself as some sort of teacher of Apollo elements, so that some imaginary lurker will see you "correcting" your critics, and parlaying your crude understanding as if were that of a master. You drop names of people who disagree with you, cite works you haven't read, and embark on lengthy and irrelevant descriptions where they don't belong. Yet you ignore meaningful questions and detailed rebuttals. Who do you think you're fooling?
 
Your points are not relevant vtbub........

I'd quote the wall of text directed at me, but there really isn't any point for repeating it again.

Yes, my target information was wrong. Armstrong was around 4 miles off where his guidance computer told him to land. My logic, however, still stands.

I'm not really sure on the best way to explain why the lack of aviation knowledge pretty much destroys the fraud notion, but it goes hand in hand with the lack of orbital science, medical knowledge shown, knowledge of computers and their tolerance in extreme conditions, and all the other things have have been presented by those who have a much more intimate knowledge of NASA and Apollo than this fan will ever have.

I do know through flight simulation how basics of flight and pilot in command works and what Armstrong did that day on the moon was a pretty damn good job of being a pilot under incredibly stressful conditions.

An unmanned probe would have crashed into that large crater as the guidance computer was trying to process two sources of radar returns and choking on the amount of data it was trying to process, if my understanding is correct. Under Patrick's theory of the week, it would have ended there with an elevated risk of not completing the mission and returning pretty much anything safely to the command module.

Instead, Armstrong the pilot realized the error, took over full command of his probe, and guided it safely to a flatter area better suited to complete the mission. As the pilot, he used the same visual training to assess and change the target based on all his hours of training including all his hours in the LM simulator. He was ready for any contingency and performed to his expectations.

Pilots land every hour of every day on airfields that they don't know in areas that do not have flight towers and in weather conditions that vary a great deal. While weather was not a factor for the moon landing, trying to fly a craft in unfamiliar situations in the heat of the moment is certainly something Armstrong shares with all pilots.

You cannot rely on instruments alone. At some point during a landing, a person has to confirm to themselves that what they see is true, regardless of compass settings, altimeters, and instrument panels tell you, the pilot still has to make the final call.

They weren't controlling that craft from Houston as they did not have any live pictures until Armstrong was ready to walk. The only way to pull that landing off was with a pilot inside.

This, of course, will be handwaved away.

Your points are not relevant vtbub........What do the points you made have to do with the fact that the center of the landing ellipse on the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map of Michael Collins is at 00 42' 50' north and 23 42' 28" east per the map's gridding/labeling? Based on the LAM-2 map's degrees/minutes/seconds gridding, "Tranquility Base is at lettered latitude line K .2 and numbered longitude line 5.6 NOT at lettered latitude line J .65 and numbered longitude line 7.52 . Apollo is proven fraudulent right there, based solely on that simple misgridding FACT.

There is no need really to wave away the substance of your comments vtbub because they may well stand and more or less stand perfectly well. They have nothing to do with what I am pointing out are FACTS that prove Apollo bogus.

What do your points have to do with the substance of my charge with respect to the Borman illness matter? Charles Berry said Borman had viral gastroenteritis. That is a FACT. Borman CLAIMED IN WRITING!!!! that he took half of a second seconal tablet to intentionally make himself ill so as to see if the drug was indeed responsible for his cislunar illness. That is a FACT. These FACTS prove Apollo fraudulent. Your points have nothing to do with them. I see absolutely nothing there vtbub. No?

What do your points have to do with the point of my charge that Apollo must be fraudulent if per the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript the "astronauts" are pretending to ride home from the moon and during that ride, more than a day after pretending to leave the moon's surface CapCom MacCandless engages Armstrong in a staged conversation, the substance of which being that Tranquility Base's location was STILL being viewed as posing to all the mission's $64,000 question? The FACT of this incredible conversation proves Apollo FRAUDULENT. Take a look at the landing site coordinate table 5-IV in the Apollo 11 Mission Report published November 1969. The PGNS, AGS, MSFN real-time solutions all match up well for the Tranquility Base location vtbub. No confusion THERE as to where the Eagle was pretending to be.

With all due respect, there is no need to wave away your points vtbub, they do not engage mine substantively. They are more or less irrelevant given the details of my own claims, and the FACTS which support them.
 
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Well Rene pressed the Apollo issue in a way that it had not been pressed before..He was not an unintelligent man matt. He was quite capable and made some very good points.


As noted, Rene claimed that pi is equal to 3.146264. Any bright secondary school student who's taken geometry can demonstrate that this is incorrect (see here). What does that say about Rene's credibility, Patrick?

And Jarrah White is still offering to sell people Rene's pamphlet "proving" this incorrect value. What does that say about his credibility?
 
That is a VERY POOR answer to an excellent question Loss Leader....

I am arguing that you should print out any ten pages of this thread, show them to a family member, and ask for help.

That is a VERY POOR answer to an excellent question Loss Leader....

Your posts imply that in your view the Smithsonian article indicated something other than that the Grumman pilots, the Grumman engineers and the Jim Lovell character all believed the Lunar Module had the capacity to land without human piloting assistance. That issue, that point, that interesting FACT!, the view that the Grumman pilots, the Grumman engineers and the Jim Lovell character all believed the Lunar Module had the capacity to land without human piloting assistance was as I pointed out the VERY THEME of the article.

And now you are not going to answer my question? Your claim about the article Loss Leader MAKES NO SENSE to repeat myself anyway, seeing as you care not to defend your own position.
 
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