Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Katody Matrass]

Addendum: Probably it would have been more effective for Hellmann, regarding the various aspects of Knox and Sollecito in terms of behavior and character, to have simply stated, "Speculation regarding this is of no consequence; no evidence points toward their involvement."

But behaviour and character was evidence according to the prosecution. Hellmann was absolutely correct to leave nothing unanswered and show how he can easily and plausibly incorporate those facts into a scenario for innocence. It is not symmetrical wrt burden of proof - he only has to show that such resulting scenario is reasonable, voila, we have reasonable doubt.

To my thinking, this would have sounded stronger (now that I see what this has given rise to elsewhere re race and class issues).

I'd say that the despair and meltdown "elsewhere" is best indicator that Hellmann did exactly right.

 

[Dougm]

Another crazy idea of pro guit people is that Guede was from the same social circles and the same "class" as the rest of the students, especially Amanda and Raffaele.
The prominent poster, the "one who speaks with Mignini" wrote a half mad, lenghty and vicious rant about it, calling the judges "fascist", "racist pigs" etc. just because they made the obvious observation that Guede's background totally differs. Others in the echo-chamber nod their heads in approval. Stilicho already proposed that they should organize the "essay" to be published somewhere in western media, because Americans are so sensitive about racism..

Reality check guys! Guede had nothing in common with the students. The only thing that connected him were the guys downstairs that he got acquainted with at the basketball court and was their uninvited and rather burdensome guest a few times.
There is not a shred of communication record, no emails, no facebook friends, no sms, no phone calls with AK and RS.
He was not a student, he didn't even have full secondary education!
He had no work, no school, nothing to do, while Raffaele was finishing his degree and Amanda was studying diligently while working part time, when she came to Italy she found herself a job, too.
Guede was an immigrant orphan left by his natural parent and dispossessed by his foster family for being no good. He was hanging around, bothering and harassing girls while drunk, breaking into properties, stealing things and threatening people with knife when caught. Amanda and Raffaele had loving and caring families, and their total "criminal record" amounted to a noise ticket and cannabis using.
Well, I guess I'm a fascist, racist pig too, for noticing those obvious differences.

Agree. And the PGP seem to forget what the most important thing is that separates Rudy from Amanda and Raffaele. He left his prints in Meredith's blood, and they didn't.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I'd say that the despair and meltdown "elsewhere" is best indicator that Hellmann did exactly right.

I guess you are right. I think I take those "elsewhere" too seriously. In any event, their "meltdown" has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. Just wish I knew why people say it will take 2-10 years, when an official news report said one or two days, with only very narrow and technical disputes. ?? Anyone know that this last was incorrect?

 

[smkovalinksy]

Agree. And the PGP seem to forget what the most important thing is that separates Rudy from Amanda and Raffaele. He left his prints in Meredith's blood, and they didn't.

This is the crux of it, yes. Others, however, will tell you that Knox and Sollecito did indeed leave evidence, as per Massei. They have not budged from the Massei/Michelli motivation report. For them, the conclusions of that report will eternally be the truth (even if they disagree with some of the theories or wordings).

 

[smkovalinksy]

It is alleged on pmf that the independent experts were merely enlisted so that there would be an official record backing up what Hellmann himself wanted to say (that Knox and Sollecito were not involved with the murder in any way) - what Hellmann himself could not believe, the idiots which made up the jury, did.

My question: What would be Hellmann's motive for being so biased?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I want to throw out a quick question about the footprint. This seems to be the major PMF argument against Hellman. I'll leave it to others to argue the case about whether the footprint could have been Guede's or not...

But... what I'm failing to understand is why the footprint presents a problem. Raffaele had been over, he could very easily have stepped on the bathmat at a different time. Further Amanda admits she took a shower and in her statement on the 6th indicates she actually sex in the shower.

So assuming for the purpose of argument, this was RS' footprint, why does that matter? Did the footprint have to happen on the 2nd. Does the final version of the timeline indicate for certain that RS and AK didn't have sex on the 2nd...?

The bathmat print was visible to the human eye and was set in diluted blood (blood/water mixture).

The guilters put so much on that print because if it belonged to Raffaele it would almost certainly have put him at the cottage on the night of the murder. Of course the print was not a match for Sollecito. In fact the print was inconclusive.

This case is over but amazingly enough people are still online discussing the evidence over and over and over and over and over again. Hopefully these people will eventually realize they were wrong and find something more productive to do.

 

[Grinder]

But behaviour and character was evidence according to the prosecution. Hellmann was absolutely correct to leave nothing unanswered and show how he can easily and plausibly incorporate those facts into a scenario for innocence. It is not symmetrical wrt burden of proof - he only has to show that such resulting scenario is reasonable, voila, we have reasonable doubt.

I'd say that the despair and meltdown "elsewhere" is best indicator that Hellmann did exactly right.

When people on this side complained about Massei people on the over side said similar things. I don't believe we should take the same attitude.

If, I said if, the translations are accurate that have come out so far, I do have some problems with his report. I don't like the Rudy lost his shoe explanation or that they didn't do it because they were from the right side of the tracks. They shouldn't have been convicted because the police botched the investigation and there isn't enough solid evidence to convict them.

They themselves few favors in how they handled the days after. I don't think Amanda's lawyers did enough early on about the interrogation.

It is not a sign of weakness to question some of Hellmann's conclusions. It is fine to remind the PGP that they didn't bother to worry about Massei's possibles turning into probables or the cleanup being created without evidence.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Excerpt from TJMK, where they are awaiting the pending prosecutorial slamming of the Hellmann report:

First Italian Criticisms Of The Hellman Verdict Statement Now Starting To Appear

The Appeal Court is ridiculous to think that Guede is the only one guilty

The reasons set forth by the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia for the killing of Meredith read oddly. According to the criminal court Rudy Guede alone did it.

This is ridiculous. Prosecutor Manuela Comodi spoke in court of the ‘embarrassing performance of’ experts’ on the testing of the murder weapon and the victim’s bra clasp.

“Too bad that the judges of the Court of Appeal have slavishly married the thesis of these so-called ‘experts’‘’ says Massimo Montebove, the president of the National Council of Police Unions.

. . .

Do not forget that attempts at delegitimization will always be directed at the police. . .

One thing is certain: the game is not’ over. We are only sorry that Amanda Knox may not pay for her responsibilities if she is again found guilty following a new appeal trial that could be decided by the Supreme Court

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

 

[Katody Matrass]

When people on this side complained about Massei people on the over side said similar things. I don't believe we should take the same attitude.

If, I said if, the translations are accurate that have come out so far, I do have some problems with his report. I don't like the Rudy lost his shoe explanation or that they didn't do it because they were from the right side of the tracks. They shouldn't have been convicted because the police botched the investigation and there isn't enough solid evidence to convict them.

They themselves few favors in how they handled the days after. I don't think Amanda's lawyers did enough early on about the interrogation.

It is not a sign of weakness to question some of Hellmann's conclusions. It is fine to remind the PGP that they didn't bother to worry about Massei's possibles turning into probables or the cleanup being created without evidence.

Obviously we have here better theories about how Guede created the bathmat print. But remember that it was not Hellmann's task to 'explain' it. His speculation is just speculation, not an explanation. He has no ambition to solve the case - it is openly said in the motivation. Before he goes on with his speculation, he makes a valid finding about the compatibility of the bathmat with Sollecito vs Guede footprints.


"they didn't do it because they were from the right side of the tracks" - this is not what Hellmann is saying. He uses their lack of connection with Guede, good character and lack of criminal or violent behaviour in places when it is actually a very valid argument - when he discusses with previous court's ideas about motive and alibi.

 

[smkovalinksy]

When people on this side complained about Massei people on the over side said similar things. I don't believe we should take the same attitude.

If, I said if, the translations are accurate that have come out so far, I do have some problems with his report. I don't like the Rudy lost his shoe explanation or that they didn't do it because they were from the right side of the tracks. They shouldn't have been convicted because the police botched the investigation and there isn't enough solid evidence to convict them.

They themselves few favors in how they handled the days after. I don't think Amanda's lawyers did enough early on about the interrogation.

It is not a sign of weakness to question some of Hellmann's conclusions. It is fine to remind the PGP that they didn't bother to worry about Massei's possibles turning into probables or the cleanup being created without evidence.

The Rudy losing his shoe is pretty lame, yes.

But the "innocent because they are from the right social strata", to me, is not what Hellmann is saying at all.

He is saying that given the precedents, it does not seem rational to link them with Rudy.

And I believe this is Guede's own fault, and due not to his skin color or race, but to his own antecedents.

 

[Grinder]

Obviously we have here better theories about how Guede created the bathmat print. But remember that it was not Hellmann's task to 'explain' it. His speculation is just speculation, not an explanation. He has no ambition to solve the case - it is openly said in the motivation. Before he goes on with his speculation, he makes a valid finding about the compatibility of the bathmat with Sollecito vs Guede footprints.

"they didn't do it because they were from the right side of the tracks" - this is not what Hellmann is saying. He uses their lack of connection with Guede, good character and lack of criminal or violent behaviour in places when it is actually a very valid argument - when he discusses with previous court's ideas about motive and alibi.

As I already said, I wish he had just said not enough proof to convict and not discussed the character of Amanda and Raffaele as a reason they couldn't have done it. Yes Rudy seemed on a downward spiral but he wasn't really a guy with a record as long as your arm even if the PLE had run him in when they should have.

I liked the analysis of the bathmat because he used basic common sense in looking at the two prints and seeing that if it matched either it was Rudy. The shape of the big toe, the indent to the right of it and the general shape of the foot all are similar to Rudy's not Raffaele's.

The lack of connection to Rudy is very valid. If the translation turns out to be skewed at this point I will reevaluate.

Fair minded people should not compare this to Massei and say "hey no worse than he did" but rather be honest when we disagree with Hellmann.

It funny that he is being criticized over there for not using the defense arguments when just yesterday they were criticizing the report for using defense arguments.

 

[smkovalinksy]

By the way, I now realize my confusion over how on earth the SC appeal could possibly stretch out over a matter of years, stems from the fact that I have been presupposing Hellmann being upheld:

The idea that the acquittals would not be had not really occurred to me.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I like his enumeration of the main points of the Hellmann report, and his closing:

• No logical motive.
• DNA evidence condemned by court appointed experts
• Lower court did not prove Knox was at the scene of crime.
• Faulty time of death used by lower court (Hellmann moves the time of death back an hour).
• Amanda Knox behavior dismissed as not a sign of guilt as people behave differently under stress.
• Hellmann disputes Knox and Sollecito involvement with Guede as improbable. No evidence of communication with Guede exists (no e-mails, no phone calls or text messages).
• Hellmann condemns police questioning as causing great psychological stress leading to falsely accusing Lumumba. Hellmann states that Knox told the police what she thought they wanted to hear out police induced psychological stress. In fact, Hellmann says, that to use the word 'stress' would be understating the event.
• Witnesses produced by the prosecution were unreliable.

At this point in time, some may be wondering about the prosecution appealing the verdict. My thinking is- good luck with that.

An appeal will not change the facts. The prosecution would still need to find fault with the Hellmann report in a rational manner in order to gain an appeal- in other words they would have to dispute common sense with nothing more than foolish speculation.

And even if the prosecution managed to pull off another trial, you can take it to the bank that Amanda Knox will not be present. The United States will never extradite Knox to Italy and the prosecution knows it. It would all be just a foolish waste of time. The 'Foxy Knoxy' circus is worn out; the witch-hunt is over.

http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspot.com/2011/12/amanda-knox-appeal-hellmann-motivation.html

 

[RWVBWL]

Breakin' in...

Kaosium,
This break in that you noted below in the Massei Report sure sounds just like the staged break-in that the pro-guilt people often state that Amanda and Raff did the night Miss Kercher was murdered:

The thief or thieves had entered through a window whose panes had been smashed with a rather large stone; the glass was scattered around, and they had found some of their clothing on top of the glass (p. 10, hearing June 6, 2009). From the first inventory they did, they found that a computer, a cell phone, USB keys and a portable printer were missing. On October 29, a colleague in the law office had called the lawyer Paolo Brocchi to tell him that in the corridor was a person who said that he had been found with some goods in Milan, goods that had been declared stolen by the lawyer Brocchi, but which he claimed to have purchased legitimately in Milan. Later, the lawyer Paolo Brocchi recognised this person as Rudy Guede (p. 20, hearing of June 6, 2009).

The lawyer Palazzoli, who testified at the same hearing, and who was a colleague in the same law firm as Brocchi, declared that the broken window was "a French window opening onto a small balcony overlooking the inner courtyard of thebuilding; beneath it, corresponding precisely to our window, there is a door equipped with a metal grille..." (p. 41, hearing of June 26, 2009). He also stated that he had been notified that the computer which had been stolen from him had been found in Milan.

Were Amanda and Raff involved in that break-in also?
Did they stage that 1 too?

What a sec, how could Amanda and Raffaele,
(using the same MO as they did when they created the staged break-in inside Filomena's bedroom), have done so at the lawyers office break-in on Oct. 13 or Oct. 14?

They did not even meet until Oct. 25 at the classical music concert!
Hmmm, I'll have to ponder this some more...
L8, RW


PS-Happy Holidays everyone!

 

[TruthCalls]

Excerpt from TJMK, where they are awaiting the pending prosecutorial slamming of the Hellmann report:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

I wonder if anyone at TJMK or PMF would accept being convicted of murder based on the DNA presented in this case -- A spec of biological material so small, even LCN testing couldn't be reliable.. and a minor trace (one of three or more male traces) found on a piece of evidence left lying on the floor for 46 days. Both items are so obviously suspect that no one in their right mind would accept them as reliable and/or verifiable.

It has always fascinated me how the guilt crowd can argue with a straight face that it doesn't matter that the bra clasp sat on the floor for 46 days because it had Raffaele's DNA on it and how else could his DNA have gotten there. But this is exactly what contamination is - transference of DNA through improper collection or testing - and it's why there are standards that must be followed to prevent it from happening. If you don't follow the standards you create the potential for contamination of the evidence and the results must be considered unreliable. It is not up to the defense to prove that contamination did happen, only that the potential existed as a result of failing to comply with documented standards. But I guess for some, the ends justify the means. They got what they wanted so, for them, it did not matter how they got it.

 

[Grinder]

Kaosium,
Were Amanda and Raff involved in that break-in also?
Did they stage that 1 too?

What a sec, how could Amanda and Raffaele,
(using the same MO as they did when they created the staged break-in inside Filomena's bedroom), have done so at the lawyers office break-in on Oct. 13 or Oct. 14?

PS-Happy Holidays everyone!

Happy Holidays to one and all.

Good to see you RW, even if it's on a tape delay.

This point was discussed during the first trial and the PG POV I remember best is that Rudy had told them about the burglaries on meeting at the boys downstairs (always a good way to impress the ladies) or even better that the kids had read about the break-ins in the local papers. No newspaper reports were ever produced, shocking.

Now if it was just coincidence, what a bummer for Rudy.

To add to the wonder of this method being used: why would the kids look out that window, not notice that it was rather high and then go get a 11 pound rock? Why wouldn't they just leave the balcony shut but unlocked and put a little blood on the door handles. Staging is a fairly sophisticated move, not on every CSI, in fact rarely.

Since any cleanup could have been done in half an hour, max; I would have gone back to Raf's and then leave in the morning for Gubbio and then back to Raf's waiting for the word by phone.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

scientific training

It has always fascinated me how the guilt crowd can argue with a straight face that it doesn't matter that the bra clasp sat on the floor for 46 days because it had Raffaele's DNA on it and how else could his DNA have gotten there. But this is exactly what contamination is - transference of DNA through improper collection or testing - and it's why there are standards that must be followed to prevent it from happening. If you don't follow the standards you create the potential for contamination of the evidence and the results must be considered unreliable. It is not up to the defense to prove that contamination did happen, only that the potential existed as a result of failing to comply with documented standards. But I guess for some, the ends justify the means. They got what they wanted so, for them, it did not matter how they got it.

Truthcalls,

The problem with the clasp to which you allude, and one of the problems with the knife (low template DNA without the usual precautions) are reasons why people doing forensic police work should have an advanced degreee in science. Good scientific training includes learning how to challenge your own beliefs with well designed experiments and learning how to do good controls. Ms. Stefanoni did not have an advanced degree, and I think that some of the mistakes she and her team made would not have happened if someone who considered himself or herself a scientist first and foremost were leading the forensic investigation. Happy holidays to everyone.

 

[Grinder]

One more (I think it hasn't been mentioned) false pieces of evidence:

I read a comment where the PGP said that an earring had been torn from Amanda's ear - this was the epiphany a PGP had by looking at pictures of Amanda during a trial.

There is another of the Examiner type stories out and one of the comments demonstrates the ongoing spreading of misinformation.

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474980921945

Here's just one item of a "casual" follower of the case:

12) Amanda has a neck wound and her first earring hole on one ear was torn. Amanda claimed that the neck wound was a hickey but looking at pictures of her neck make that unlikely. The earring was explained as a piercing that got infected. That also seems unlikely.

 

[Grinder]

Re: PGP coming back here to discuss the case.

I would like them to admit out of the gate that the ILE did a sloppy job.

I would like them to admit that being questioned for a number of hours over 3 days can wear a person down and that the final 2 hours "finished" her off. I'd like them to admit that the police had decided they had solved the crime and just needed Amanda to say anything about Patrick so they could bring him in. Further, the police asked her about the text message from PL and led her into "remembering" the events that weren't true and yet the police were sure they were correct.

On the top of my list of issues that PGP just don't allow themselves to get is that after the final night of interrogation and being locked in solitary without access to a lawyer or anybody, it is not surprising that she didn't completely "recover" and deny the whole "accusation" in words that even Bill W would accept.

 

[Bill Williams]

On the top of my list of issues that PGP just don't allow themselves to get is that after the final night of interrogation and being locked in solitary without access to a lawyer or anybody, it is not surprising that she didn't completely "recover" and deny the whole "accusation" in words that even Bill W would accept.

Hellman offered a reason to convict on callunia I had not thought of - ie. that to him the original signed statements (memorandums #1 and #2) were signed not because she agreed with the detail, but to get the cops out of her face and stop the interrogation. Also, in ordinary circumstances it is no crime to ask for a pen and paper to write down supplementary thoughts once free of the duress - except in this case that instinct was disasteroud, producing memorandums #3 and #4.

I'm afraid that Hellman's reasoning around this has only strengthened my opinion. Still, I am obviously not understanding Italian sentencing, because I maintain that the proper thing to do would have been to convict, but to suspend the sentence. Eg. not even give three years, for all the reasons the rest of the innocentatii say should be used to avoid the conviction.

My huge sirprise at this point is that this reasonsing is not made use of by PGP folk. They are busy massaging the evidence like Sollecito scrunching is toes - I mean, it's four years people, and you're not even settled on what the basic evidence is?

Let's move on.