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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Slide Rulez 4 Life
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A group called "Mission of the Shroud" put a full-page ad in today's newspaper, showing some of the 'miracles' revealed in their studies of the Shroud of Turin. Their studies, near as I can determine, involve highly imaginative inspections of close-up photos of smudges. They do the same think to rocks, skies and whatever they can find.

In these images, they claim to see depictions of Jesus, Mary, the Bible, a Chalice, and so-on and so-forth.

As for me, I can't see a thing. Even in the photos they've helpfully labelled, all I see is a smudge. I suspect it's either pareidolia, or it's one of those Magic-Eye things (which I normally have no trouble seeing).

Anyway, have a look and see what you see.
Mission of the Shroud photos page

I was also amused to note that this group of overly-optimistic smudge-gazers is local.
 
I looked, I didn't get it. But if you have to point it out like that - "look there's his nose if you hold it sideways and squint a little" - how reliable is it? It's like getting a Jesus face in your morning toast.
 
ebardos said:
I looked, I didn't get it. But if you have to point it out like that - "look there's his nose if you hold it sideways and squint a little" - how reliable is it? It's like getting a Jesus face in your morning toast.
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I have a vague memory that someone was selling a toaster this year that did that on demand
 
This is a nice collection of blurry images. Since they actually show nothing, they could be used as a sort of Rorschach test for religiosity. It's Jesus on a taco all over again.

They do prove one thing though: Pseudoscience never dies. The carbon dating of the shroud as late 1200s to early 1300s should have ended the debate. What is particularly an aspect of pseudoscience vs. science is that, had the carbon dating shown the shroud was from the first century, its advocates would have been trumpeting the findings to the skies. Once carbon dating showed the shroud to be of medieval origin, they couldn't find enough rationalizations to explain it away.
 
TimCallahan said:
This is a nice collection of blurry images. Since they actually show nothing, they could be used as a sort of Rorschach test for religiosity. It's Jesus on a taco all over again.

They do prove one thing though: Pseudoscience never dies. The carbon dating of the shroud as late 1200s to early 1300s should have ended the debate. What is particularly an aspect of pseudoscience vs. science is that, had the carbon dating shown the shroud was from the first century, its advocates would have been trumpeting the findings to the skies. Once carbon dating showed the shroud to be of medieval origin, they couldn't find enough rationalizations to explain it away.
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The best one I heard was that the Resurrection Event changed the structure of the shroud thereby throwing off the carbon dating.


ETA: Iron clad proof would be if they took a fleck of 'blood' and cloned Jesus.
 
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tsig said:
The best one I heard was that the Resurrection Event changed the structure of the shroud thereby throwing off the carbon dating.


ETA: Iron clad proof would be if they took a fleck of 'blood' and cloned Jesus.
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That's as funny as the balderdash about Thomas Aquinas and the fish.
 
tsig said:
The best one I heard was that the Resurrection Event changed the structure of the shroud thereby throwing off the carbon dating. (snip)
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Which means that the assertion the shroud is from the first century isn't verifiable / falsifiable; which means it isn't science and isn't even intellectually honest.
 
TimCallahan said:
Which means that the assertion the shroud is from the first century isn't verifiable / falsifiable; which means it isn't science and isn't even intellectually honest.
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Found this:

In recent years, some scientists have tried to link the enigma of the Shroud's images to a resurrection event. In the wake of a miraculous occurrence, they reason, some energetic stimulus brought forth a visible chemical change at the surface of the cloth?


http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-miracle.htm


The argument seems to be that when the resurrection happened there was a blast of energy that 'burnt' the image onto the cloth.

Science? No, but there's nothing new about scientists throwing their brains out the window when it comes to faith.
 
Am I mistaken or didn't the Church reject the shroud as a latter-day forgery/fake/hoax over a decade ago?
 
tsig said:
Iron clad proof would be if they took a fleck of 'blood' and cloned Jesus.
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You don't need the Shroud for that. Communion wine literally transforms into the blood of Christ, giving you all the DNA you need.
 
Ray Brady said:
You don't need the Shroud for that. Communion wine literally transforms into the blood of Christ, giving you all the DNA you need.
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The accidents (appearance, smell, taste) remains the same but the essence changes into Jesus so no cloning (RCC doctrine)
 
Is there any compelling reason to?

Right now, pareidolia and wishful thinking suffice. Especially considering that the shroud is only 800 years old, and not 2000.
 
Jabba said:
- Have any of you guys studied the alleged evidence?
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Yes. The image on the shroud is an idealised, iconic image of Jesus that did not start to take shape until about 600AD, and didn't reach the form on the shroud until about 800AD. In addition, Tertullian and Josephus left physical descriptions of Jesus in their writings (as did some of the 'other' gospels). Those descriptions match each other quite well. They do not match the image on the shroud.

The crucifixion marks on the image are incorrect. The Romans may have varied their methods regarding the hands, but the feet were always dealt with in the same way, which is not the method shown on the shroud. The carbon dating was performed on 4 distinct samples from the shroud, and all 4 showed a date of between 1200 and 1390.

In short, although the Turin shroud is a fascinating object, it is not the burial shroud of Jesus. In fact, since crucifixion was abolished by Constantine, it is not a burial shroud at all. It is most likely a very unusual example of medieval iconography.
 
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