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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Well for openers the astronauts would need to stop telling.....

Patrick, what evidence would it take to convince you that you are wrong?

Stop dodging the question...

Well for openers the astronauts would need to stop telling that silly story about not seeing stars RAF.

Actually, a meaningful evaluation of the guidance system issue will for all intents and purposes end this silly debate of ours RAF. End it, once and for all.

As you shall see RAF, the official story is ever so vulnerable in this regard. It was over in essence a long time ago, back in July when I started with all this here on JRandi. Now, with a serious look at the reality of the Apollo Guidance Computer's capabilities being ever so eminent, this charade is less than a month from over. At least any reasonably capable critical thinker will come to that conclusion after I present my evidence, the PEOPLE'S EVIDENCE.
 
Now, with a serious look at the reality of the Apollo Guidance Computer's capabilities being ever so eminent, this charade is less than a month from over.


You realize that there are AGC simulators on the internet? There are detailed plans as to exactly how the computer is constructed? Hobbyists have actually built fully functioning AGC's? You could take the raw data that the AGCs received and watch it perform exactly as it did on the missions in real time?

Do you realize that people with no connection to NASA have already done more work on this than even you contemplate doing? And that they determined that the computer functioned just like the history books say it did?

Or do you just type and hope?
 
Stellar-Inertial Guidance of the sophisticated uni-star type employed in the more sophisticated Trident Missiles(much later development, these missiles were produced well after the 1960s) required that a large computerized star chart/map be maintained inside of the boat so as a so called "near-optimum" star always would be available to the missile guidance system for sighting after launch.


I asked before and I'll ask again. How many bytes of ROM would be required for 100 stars?

What is your citation for the boat storing the star chart and not the missile itself?


The Soviets employed a system in which 2/multiple stars were sighted. The first Soviet star sighter was deployed in 1973 and the first American in 1979, long after the fraudulent Apollo missions.


On ICBM/SLBMs maybe, but Apollo did not automatically track any star; all celestial navigation was done by the astronauts. Most spacecraft, including your beloved Lunar Orbiters, had already been using star trackers years before Apollo 7 flew including Mariner 4 which has an interesting story how its Canopus tracker was buggered during its mission to Mars. Mariner 4 was launched in 1964.

Were an Apollo space ship to be actually able to FIND THE MOON, such a comprehensive computerized star chart would of course be a requisite.


Citation needed for a large computerized star chart and why it was needed and why not just a few dozen stars.


Not only that, the computer would have to be programmed to understand what stars could and could not be seen under any given set of circumstances as star visibility would change greatly depending on whether a genuine Apollo ship was in earth orbit, cislunar space or lunar orbit and what the ship's attitude was in relation to the sunlight and earthlight.


Just because you think it is an insurmountable problem doesn't mean the experts in the field would. Plotting the path of a trans-lunar spacecraft already requires calculating the position of the Sun, Earth and Moon, adding a few more lines of code to determine which stars were visible and had the best spread would be a minor detail.


The Apollo ships of course did not have adequate star identification capabilities,


Except for being able to look out the scanning telescope and identify stars by using their eyeballs.

nor were the Apollo astronauts capable of dealing with this stuff, handling sophisticated star sighting duties.


The system was sophisticated but the operation of it was anything but sophisticated.
 
Well for openers the astronauts would need to stop telling that silly story about not seeing stars RAF.

What about all the times they tell about seeing the stars? What about all the times they reported having confirmed the platform accuracy -- an average of every 4 hours? Why do you selectively report the astronauts' ability to navigate?

Actually, a meaningful evaluation of the guidance system issue will for all intents and purposes end this silly debate of ours RAF. End it, once and for all.

Meaningful evaluations of the Apollo guidance system have already been done by people far more competent than you, with the unanimous opinion that it was a masterpiece of control-system design. It's still widely studied, and the academic and professional papers that were published along the way are still seminal works.

You are incapable of a meaningful evaluation because you have amply demonstrated a less-than-average aptitude for this particular science, and because you have already made up your mind.

You refuse to submit to any test of your skill or knowledge. How are we to interpret that if not to believe that you know you're unqualified but don't want that fact to be widely known? You have a blatantly obvious anti-mainstream bias. Given this, how is the reader to be assured that your "evaluation" will be fair and complete, compared to the dozens of expert treatises that have already been given?

It was over in essence a long time ago, back in July when I started with all this here on JRandi.

No, it was over six months ago when you first tried to present this material at other forums and were soundly shot down. You made up your mind then, and now you're just groping for a pseudo-technical fairy tale that fits your predetermined belief. You will find one, of course, but it will bear no resemblance to reality and it will garner no endorsements from knowledgeable practitioners. But since you've already written off those practitioners as deluded, brainwashed simpletons who don't have the benefit of your unique "common sense," I doubt that will impede you much.

At least any reasonably capable critical thinker will come to that conclusion after I present my evidence, the PEOPLE'S EVIDENCE.

Translation: You're irrational if you don't believe me.

Why don't you present the evidence that "the people" are asking for? Why don't you tell us what your prior qualifications are in astronavigation? Why don't you tell us what INS-guided vehicles you've piloted? That's what the people have said they want to know from you. Why do you insist on disappointing them?
 
...Why is it that you quote only from books you can get on Google Books, and only from those parts that Google Books decides to give you? You've already been bitten at least twice by failing to consider the parts of those works you couldn't click on for free.

You seem to be trying to impress us with all the materials you're allegedly devouring on this topic, but what it appears you're doing is Googling for ammunition without really attempting to understand...

Patrick, I'm afraid to say I have to agree that the above has been painfully, obviously true for quite some time. Many of your posts seem to consist of nothing more than "<Google, Google, Google> Oh, I forgot to say: <Ctrl-C> <Ctrl-V>, and of course I'll have much more to say on that topic in future posts".

Each time you do it I cringe with embarrassment for you. I really can't understand why you persist in regurgitating chunks of stuff from Google Books since you surely cannot have failed to notice by now that it only ever provokes an immediate, detailed and thorough correction of your misunderstanding by someone expert in the particular field.

The saving grace for the rest of us is that the rebuttals themselves are fascinating and highly informative. I can't see, though, what you feel you're gaining from all this.
 
Well for openers the astronauts would need to stop telling that silly story about not seeing stars RAF.
I'm not sure how someone can "stop telling" something you keep quoting them as having said 40 years ago. Maybe you could just stop pretending there's any illogicality or contradiction in what they actually said. That would work too.

Actually, a meaningful evaluation of the guidance system issue will for all intents and purposes end this silly debate of ours RAF. End it, once and for all.
That would be awesome. Maybe you could make a list of things you need to know.
 
Well for openers the astronauts would need to stop telling that silly story about not seeing stars RAF.

This "silly story" you speak of is a whole cloth invention of your mind. It in no way represents what the testimony of the astronauts actually is.


...a meaningful evaluation of the guidance system issue will for all intents and purposes end this silly debate of ours RAF. End it, once and for all.

There can be no "meaningful evaluation", of something you do not understand...and as we've all witnessed, anything that opposes your "whim based" anti-apollo ideas is summarily rejected out of hand.

Oh, and there is no "debate" here...Apollo happened, and you are wrong.


As you shall see RAF, the official story is ever so vulnerable in this regard.

According to you?? Thing is, you simply have not demonstrated why anyone should take your "word" for anything....no one here believes you.


It was over in essence a long time ago, back in July when I started with all this here on JRandi.

Aw, the hubris of the uninformed...


...this charade is less than a month from over.

Are you going somewhere?


At least any reasonably capable critical thinker will come to that conclusion after I present my evidence, the PEOPLE'S EVIDENCE.

You once again make this "appeal" as if someone here is agreeing with you. Stop doing that.
 
Outer Space Weapons Testing........An Introduction to Apollo's Role....

This thread, "LOST BIRD PROVES APOLLO INAUTHENTICITY", is about to get very scary, incredibly scary, scary beyond belief. That said, 7 months ago, when I first began my Apollo studies, I promised myself I would countenance my own fears and follow this hellishly disturbing thing wherever it might lead. And indeed, the Apollo story, the true Apollo story, has lead to one frightening revelation after another. How can anyone say that he or she is not scared to death in a sense by virtue of one's having learned that the American Manned Space Program was a cover by and large for American military programs, and most specifically, was a cover for some aspects of the American ballistic missile programs(ICBM, SLBM, not to mention others)?

Prior to April 22nd 2011, I personally had no such idea that this is what Apollo and the American Manned Space Program was about in general. Me naive? You betcha'. When I was seventeen years old and a freshman at UC Berkeley(1975), my roommate and I had a poster of the Apollo 12 Command Module's main control panel hanging over our funky living room couch. Looking back, it's easy to understand why we had the thing hanging there and were sort of semi proud of it all, proud of Apollo and our connection to it. We were Americans, not to mention students of the physical sciences. We were attending a major university, one known for outrageous excellence in its physics and math departments no less. Oh well……My views have changed, and my pride has turned to fear, healthy fear it is at least.

Brace yourselves. If what I have written so far has not scared you, the substance of this post surely will. I'll be introducing the subject of the American Manned Space Program's involvement in weapons testing. Up until now, I have focused on Apollo as a program of weapons deployment. For example, the LRRR placed on the lunar surface is a weapon, and is/was a weapon deployed by NASA and the American military in the context of the "Apollo 11 Mission". One may cite the LRRR's deployment as a weapons system deployment given the LRRR's role in determining empirically and with the greatest accuracy the strength of the earth's gravitational field and how that field varies from place to place on the earth's surface and how the earth's gravitational field varies over time as well. Next to having a good latitude and longitude fix on one's launch site and target site, earth gravitational field measurements are the most important datums in programming an ICBM or SLBM for successful targeting. One cannot calculate an accurate ephemeris/trajectory for an ICBM/SLBM without knowing in the greatest of detail the point to point strength of the earth's gravitational field. The planet earth's field was mapped with great precision beginning in the late 1960s and into the 70s and beyond thanks to the LRRR experiments. As such, the LRRR is a weapon. In this post however, I'll focus on the American Space Program's role not in deployment of weapons, but rather, in the testing of already exigent killing systems.

And so temporarily, I shall leave the subject of weapons deployment to begin a new topic, weapons testing with respect to that testing occurring under the guise of peaceful American Manned Space Programs; Mercury/Gemini/Apollo/Shuttle and so forth. I will primarily be discussing how the American Manned Space Programs were covers for the testing of our thermonuclear weapon delivery systems and the weapons/warheads themselves. This is why I stated earlier that this was about to get very scary.

I have read some dozen and a half books on the subject, 11 monographs, 313 archived newspaper articles, and have now viewed 39 hours of video on the subject since I began looking into this aspect of NASA's programs. To keep the thing simple, at least for starters, I will use just 2 references for this particular post. This way, my claims can easily be verified by those curious enough to check them out. Having access to NY Times Newspaper archives or monographs written on rocket performance and so forth won't be necessary. If you want to check on my fundamental claims, I'll make it easy so there is no question at least with regard to the claims' general nature. Of course all are entitled to disagree with the history of missiles as presented by the authors I shall be quoting presently.

I believe I have already introduced "INVENTING ACCURACY (A HISTORICAL SOCIOLOGY OF NUCLEAR MISSILE GUIDANCE)" by Donald MacKenzie(MIT Press 1990). Fabulous book and the most comprehensive generally on the history of ballistic missile weapons' guidance. I am also generally impressed with "EVOLUTION OF THE SEA-BASED NUCLEAR MISSILE DETERRENT by George J. Refuto(Xlibris Corporation 2011). I'll be using these books for the most part to provide historical facts. I will not borrow from these authors with respect to their analyses however. Any analytical comments here shall be my own.

I shall demonstrate rather easily that the American Manned Space Program had to have functioned in the Apollo era, and functions presently, functions TODAY, in the capacity of a program with its primary role that of seeing to it our nuclear weapons, and in particular our ballistic missiles, function as they are supposed to. That is, in such a way that were one launched from the middle of America or the middle of the Pacific Ocean, the missile would climb from the earth to the cold of space, have the reentry vehicle with warhead pass back through the atmosphere, and in the process of so passing through the thick atmosphere, be exposed to extremes of heat, and then finally, ultimately, find say Moscow with a resounding BOOM and ORANGE GLOW.

In Chapter 7 of MacKenzie's book, a chapter entitled, "THE CONSTRUCTION OF TECHNICAL FACTS". MacKenzie seeks to answer among other questions the ever so salient, "Will Nuclear Missiles Work?" As surprising as this may sound, people in the 1960s, weapons experts no less, not to mention a thoughtful politician or two, had good reasons to doubt whether it was in fact the case that our ICBMs/SLBMs worked, or at least some people had good reason to doubt that our strategic missile would not work as well as we would hope if need be, as well as advertised.









In 1961 the US House of Representatives Armed Services Committee formulated the following very reasonable question;

Who knows whether an intercontinental ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead will actually work? Each of the constituent elements has been tested, it is true. Each of them, however, has not been tested under circumstances which would be attendant upon the firing of such a missile in anger. By this the committee means an an intercontinental ballistic missile will carry its nuclear warhead to great heights, subjecting it to intense cold. It will then arch down and upon reentering the the earth's atmosphere subject the nuclear warhead to intense heat. Who knows what will happen to the many delicate mechanisms involved in the nuclear warhead as it is subjected to these two extremes of temperature."

A fairly thought provoking question is it not? Especially when one starts to consider the delicate gyros of the guidance system and accelerometers, and the MIRV bus, an idea evolving later in the decade, and later still, the mechanisms that functioned in the capacity to guide the reentry vehicles, and the nuke itself. To see if the thing really works, one must test it all at once, fire a live missile with a detonating warhead actually going off where it is supposed to go off, and in so doing validate the missile's performance in the only way such a performance could ever be validated. But one cannot just go off and shoot an ICBM at something. You can't even impulsively go off and target some "who cares about it after all" remote Pacific island and blow the island up.

Late 50s early 60s testing had for the most part amounted to detonating nukes from towers, fixed positions or from airplane drops. Missiles were tested over and over, but these missiles were tested without warheads. The Armed Services Committee wanted the military guys to PROVE THE THINGS ACTUALLY WORKED. Dropping a warhead from a plane and then detonating it, following up on that with the launching of said warhead's vehicle at an island in the Pacific and hitting the island WITHOUT the warhead, is decidedly not very convincing. You've got to put a bomb on the top of the stick and shoot the thing through space and see if it blows up where you had hoped it would blow up. A lot easier said than done for many reasons.

The American Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted to fire live missiles, for this they needed presidential authority as missiles would be launched from and/or fly by population centers. The Kennedy Administration would NOT authorize such testing. Figuring that if they killed some Pacific Islanders testing a missile no one would much care, not here in the states anyway, the U.S.S. Ethan Allen on 6 May 1962 fired a live Polaris 1,200 miles at Christmas Island and blew the thing up, well blew up part of the island anyway. This test was known as, "OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD", and many claimed, "What more do you want? The missile flew 1,200 miles and hit the island dead on. The warhead exploded and so forth". But 1,200 miles is NOT 3,000. Also, the warhead used, the W47 proved to be very unreliable, only one quarter to one half of these warheads were found over time to detonate. As such, some claimed this test, OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD, was a "lucky fluke".

Air Force Chief off Staff , "Bombs Away" Curtis LeMay, told the Defense Appropriation Subcommittee of the House of Representatives that, "we have only had one test, it was not under fully operational conditions, we fired one Polaris out in the Pacific with a warhead on it. It was not truly operational. It was modified to some extent for the test". A long ways off from a ringing endorsement by our boy LeMay. Are you going to war with this test backing you up? No, the test hardly inspires confidence given its limitations and given the huge investment we had made in ballistic missile nukes and given the fact that we were investing more and more each day. We had to be sure these things worked and worked well. We had too much invested in all this to hope that things would go well based on individual component testing, especially given the testing was terrestrial, not done with live missiles that found space and then gave it up again to return running so hot to the earth.

Goldwater jumped all over this and when he ran against Johnson in 1964 for the presidency he said, "I have raised and will continue to raise until all the facts are in, fundamental questions about the credibility of our intercontinental ballistic missiles. It is not a question of theoretical accuracy. the fact is that not one of our advanced ICBMs has ever been subjected to a full test (of all component systems, including warheads) under simulated battle conditions".

But how in the world could one figure out if a missile might/could/should/would work? The Kennedy/Johnson Administration had committed the US to the 1963 Partial Test Ban Treaty. THERE WERE TO BE NO ATMOSPHERIC, UNDERWATER OR OUTER SPACE TESTS PERIOD!!!!

Goldwater rather eloquently , not to mention with good reason as well, hit hard with the following statement, "We are building a Maginot Line of missiles".

Some said that post test ban there then existed this paradoxical decline in the ICBM credibility challenge precisely because after the test ban treaty was signed, one simply could not fire a live missile and have its warhead detonate at the end of the missile's run. That said, the People's Republic of China were said to have performed a successful live ICBM test in 1966 and then again in 1976. The Ruskies were said to have pulled off a successful live missile test in 1963. But come on now, really….we are sinking millions of bucks into this stuff and we have got one OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD 1,200 mile shot at Christmas Island, 2 Chinese shots and a Ruskie shot to convince us we are ready to go come that big scary day? I do not think so and of course military people are the last to think like this. Most readers by now can see where this thing is heading. Is it not obvious?, but let's continue with some more background.

As time went on, the reentry vehicles became guided, first by way of rather simple mechanical mechanisms and then later by much more sophisticated systems. MIRVs developed and a MIRV carrying bus would have to cruise about in the cold of space launching one reentry vehicle after another on its way across our enemies' terrain.

Is one going to leave ICBM/SLBM reliability to chance, a warhead freezing its tail off in the cold of supra-atmospheric space only to heat up to unimaginably hot temps on the way back in? Of course not. Even the direction of rocket launch would be an issue. Essentially all "publicly" acknowledge missile tests are from our west coast out over the Pacific. What happens if we launch toward the north? How about East? The earth's gravitational field is DIFFERENT under these different launch conditions/directions. Do we have it down? Is our model good? The only way to figure out how a live Atlas is going to perform when launched from the US toward the east and north, toward the Soviet Union, is to launch a LIVE Atlas East and North toward Moscow say in the Soviet Union.

With test bans in place, the military cannot do do this, launch a live/near live warhead and see what happens to it on reentry. They are "watched" to carefully and so they need to perform occult tests of their missiles and warheads under the guise of the American Manned Space Program(s). The "NASA clowns", the very few inside NASA, inside the know, were well aware that they could not detonate warheads in space. But they could get a test, a good one to see how the military stuff worked.

Getting the hang of this, are you?! YES! THAT IS CORRECT! One simply would pretend as though one's manned flights were peaceful. Instead, one might perhaps pretend guys were on board but instead have a nuke on board. Let the thing float back in through the earth's atmosphere and now you can see what happened to this warhead as it passed through the atmosphere. THIS OF COURSE IS ESSENTIAL INFORMATION. Did everything work out OK? Do your MIRVs work, the bus that carries them and on and on and on and on. The only way to test this stuff is to test it in space(no actual detonations of course, but short of that everything goes) under the guise of Mercury/Gemini/Apollo. This does not mean that all of these missions were unmanned. It does mean that every mission was in some sense to some greater or lesser degree about testing our strategic war making equipment, not to mention planting some equipment on the moon as was the case with the LRRR and other interesting items such as planting LMs retrofitted to do more than taxi phony astronauts around.

This was a lot to take in for the uninitiated and so I'll leave it there for now. One may conclude with utter certainty that American nuclear weapons work and reliably so. As they could not be tested openly due to the test ban treaties, they were and continue to be tested under the guise of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo/Shuttle/New NASA Programs and forever more unless we can put an end to this nonsense by way of heightening public awareness and concern.

I am not kidding, write to your Congresspersons today about your outrage over the weaponization of space.
 
Patrick the only thing that truly scares me is your lack of basic understanding of so many varied topics. And this topic includes weapons development (and probably employment as well, but that remains to be seen).

The manned space program is not a cover for covert weapons testing. The world already knew that nuclear weapons were a reality as a result of 2 flights in August 1945, and numerous atmospheric tests carried out by both powers from 1946 to 1963. Both sides had missiles, and knew that they would land where they were aimed at to within a certain PER, and that refinements to the guidance systems would reduce that.

We and by we I mean the Western powers and the Soviets, knew that artificial satellites were key to improving accuracy, not the moon. That is why there are a large number of navigational satellites out there.

The moon
 
Me naive? You betcha'. When I was seventeen years old and a freshman at UC Berkeley(1975), my roommate...

In every thread at JREF you insist on posting these lengthy, irrelevant biographical sketches. No one wants to hear about your philosophical "journey" through your conspiracy theories. We just want proof.

I promised myself I would countenance my own fears and follow this hellishly disturbing thing wherever it might lead.

No one cares, Patrick. If you dislike Apollo so much, just leave it alone. But burdening your reader with trumped-up expressions of personal disgust will not substitute for the proof they've been asking for.

Yelling "OMG!! Nukes!" with wild eyes and waving hands isn't proof.

And indeed, the Apollo story, the true Apollo story, has lead to one frightening revelation after another.

Your Apollo story has merely led to one amusing revelation after another of your own incompetence in the subject matter. These come heralded by a few sneaky attempts to reverse your belief and take credit for what others have told you.

How can anyone say that he or she is not scared to death in a sense by virtue of one's having learned that the American Manned Space Program was a cover...

After 7 months of wall-of-text compositions such as this, you're no closer to proving anything of the sort. By all means feel free to be "scared to death" yourself, but you don't speak for everyone. The only alarm I've seen people express is aimed at the notion that a 54-year-old physician would conduct an argument the way you have.

Brace yourselves. If what I have written so far has not scared you, the substance of this post surely will. I'll be introducing the subject...

No, you're changing the subject once again. After 7 months of regurgitating the same text over and over again -- and you promised that would be your style -- you've made zero headway against informed criticism. You flit from topic to topic, hoping readers will forget the disastrous state of your argument in any one topic.

Sorry, Patrick, but real scholars don't get to run away from topics they can't win.

I have read some dozen and a half books on the subject, 11 monographs, 313 archived newspaper articles, and have now viewed 39 hours of video on the subject...

Nope. Your research style is very apparent: you Google a tidbit here and there, then you invent a huge fairy tale based on it.

To keep the thing simple, at least for starters, I will use just 2 references for this particular post.

I see. You claim to have read some 30 books that you do not name, then for "simplicity" you tell us you're going to use only two sources -- coincidentally the same two Google Books references you used yesterday. And that's supposed to convince us that you really have done your homework?

I believe I have already introduced "INVENTING ACCURACY (A HISTORICAL SOCIOLOGY OF NUCLEAR MISSILE GUIDANCE)" by Donald MacKenzie(MIT Press 1990). Fabulous book and the most comprehensive generally on the history of ballistic missile weapons' guidance. I am also generally impressed with "EVOLUTION OF THE SEA-BASED NUCLEAR MISSILE DETERRENT by George J. Refuto(Xlibris Corporation 2011). I'll be using these books for the most part to provide historical facts.

I already discussed these authors. Do not expect me to accept them as authorities until you have addressed my discussion of them.

Any analytical comments here shall be my own.

I reject you as an analyst. You are unqualified.

Most readers by now can see where this thing is heading. Is it not obvious?

Yes, it's heading toward yet another fairy tale full of wild handwaving and question-begging. Toward yet another topic on which several people here are likely to have practical expertise while you do not. Toward yet another topic on which you will simply refuse to answer any questions. Toward yet another topic you will abandon as soon as you get backed into a corner or display yet another egregious Stundie-worthy error.

This was a lot to take in for the uninitiated and so I'll leave it there for now.

Patrick, in case it's not obvious, you're the uninitiated. Many of the rest of us work with this technology for a living.

I am not kidding, write to your Congresspersons today about your outrage over the weaponization of space.

When you ignore practically everything that's said to you, you don't get to instruct others what to do.

Answer my Doppler questions as I asked a month ago, and then maybe I'll entertain your recommendations.
 
Any analytical comments here shall be my own.


Translation: Based on my ignorance of all basic scientific principles I shall extrapolate my fantasies into the realm of the ridiculous.


Figuring that if they killed some Pacific Islanders testing a missile no one would much care, not here in the states anyway, the U.S.S. Ethan Allen on 6 May 1962 fired a live Polaris 1,200 miles at Christmas Island and blew the thing up, well blew up part of the island anyway. This test was known as, "OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD",


Do you really think they would detonate a 600 kt warhead over a populated island? No, the missile was launched towards Christmas Island and detonated 500 nm short of it.


But 1,200 miles is NOT 3,000.


The flight path would be very similar, i.e. all the things you said a missile would experience the Frigate Bird missile did experience. So your entire premise is wrong.


Also, the warhead used, the W47 proved to be very unreliable, only one quarter to one half of these warheads were found over time to detonate. As such, some claimed this test, OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD, was a "lucky fluke".


The design flaws of the US' early warheads is a matter of the historical record and is irrelevant to Apollo.

The earth's gravitational field is DIFFERENT under these different launch conditions/directions.

"Different" is relative and you're trying to exaggerate it to make it fit your fantasy. The Earth's gravitational field varies a minute amount, so minute in fact, it takes a long duration satellite survey to properly map it. The slightly varying gravitational field will throw a ballistic missile off slightly but not enough to have to worry about given the yield of the early warheads. Later, when we improved the technology and thoroughly charted the Earth's gravitational field we shifted to smaller yield warheads.

You were spanked on this very early in the thread. Myself and others told you about satellite geodesy and months later you started "lecturing" us on satellite geodesy, as if you knew it all along. But now it seems like you forgot the lesson we taught you and you're going back to your idiotic LRRR geodesy. This is going to come as a shock to your but the geodesy satellites also measured the Earth's gravity. Which would make a more valuable geodetic measuring device: a satellite that orbits the Earth in 1.5 hours or one that orbits the Earth in 29.5 days? Besides the Moon is too far away to chart the Earth's local gravitational anomalies.


As they could not be tested openly due to the test ban treaties, they were and continue to be tested under the guise of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo/Shuttle/New NASA Programs and forever more unless we can put an end to this nonsense by way of heightening public awareness and concern.


Absurd in the extreme. If you want to test a ballistic missile you test that missile, not something 200 times bigger.

This is your lamest attempt and your longest wall of text yet. Coincidence? I think not.
 
The point about the Pacific Islanders.......

Translation: Based on my ignorance of all basic scientific principles I shall extrapolate my fantasies into the realm of the ridiculous.





Do you really think they would detonate a 600 kt warhead over a populated island? No, the missile was launched towards Christmas Island and detonated 500 nm short of it.





The flight path would be very similar, i.e. all the things you said a missile would experience the Frigate Bird missile did experience. So your entire premise is wrong.





The design flaws of the US' early warheads is a matter of the historical record and is irrelevant to Apollo.



"Different" is relative and you're trying to exaggerate it to make it fit your fantasy. The Earth's gravitational field varies a minute amount, so minute in fact, it takes a long duration satellite survey to properly map it. The slightly varying gravitational field will throw a ballistic missile off slightly but not enough to have to worry about given the yield of the early warheads. Later, when we improved the technology and thoroughly charted the Earth's gravitational field we shifted to smaller yield warheads.

You were spanked on this very early in the thread. Myself and others told you about satellite geodesy and months later you started "lecturing" us on satellite geodesy, as if you knew it all along. But now it seems like you forgot the lesson we taught you and you're going back to your idiotic LRRR geodesy. This is going to come as a shock to your but the geodesy satellites also measured the Earth's gravity. Which would make a more valuable geodetic measuring device: a satellite that orbits the Earth in 1.5 hours or one that orbits the Earth in 29.5 days? Besides the Moon is too far away to chart the Earth's local gravitational anomalies.





Absurd in the extreme. If you want to test a ballistic missile you test that missile, not something 200 times bigger.

This is your lamest attempt and your longest wall of text yet. Coincidence? I think not.

The point about the Pacific Islanders.......does not have to do with their islands being the targets, it has to do with their being hurt if something goes awry. So of course the warhead is not set to detonate over a populated area. If my writing above suggested that I apologize, but I thought the point was obvious.

If a test missile goes off course, or say a test missile's warhead detonates in the atmosphere on reentry and fallout scatters in some unintended and very bad way, then Pacific Islanders could be hurt very badly. This was acknowledged at the time of Operation Frigate Bird as possible.

Correction to my just prior post above, I wrote the Ruskies successfully tested a live ballistic missile in 1963. I meant to say/write that the had successfully tested a live missile prior to the 1963 partial test ban.
 
I shall demonstrate rather easily that the American Manned Space Program had to have functioned in the Apollo era, and functions presently, functions TODAY, in the capacity of a program with its primary role that of seeing to it our nuclear weapons, and in particular our ballistic missiles, function as they are supposed to.


You have offered no evidence for this claim; all you have is supposition. This is in no way a demonstration. LL can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the equivalent of a conclusory allegation in a lawsuit.

. . . As such, some claimed this test, OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD, was a "lucky fluke".

Air Force Chief off Staff , "Bombs Away" Curtis LeMay, told the Defense Appropriation Subcommittee of the House of Representatives that, "we have only had one test, it was not under fully operational conditions, we fired one Polaris out in the Pacific with a warhead on it. It was not truly operational. It was modified to some extent for the test". A long ways off from a ringing endorsement by our boy LeMay. . . .

Goldwater jumped all over this and when he ran against Johnson in 1964 for the presidency he said, "I have raised and will continue to raise until all the facts are in, fundamental questions about the credibility of our intercontinental ballistic missiles. It is not a question of theoretical accuracy. the fact is that not one of our advanced ICBMs has ever been subjected to a full test (of all component systems, including warheads) under simulated battle conditions".


Did it occur to you that LeMay and Goldwater might not be the most unbiased commentators on the potential reliability of ICBMs and (especially) SLBMs? Can you think of a possible reason they might be biased? I'll give you a hint: Think about the nickname you used for LeMay.

Are you going to war with this test backing you up? No, the test hardly inspires confidence given its limitations and given the huge investment we had made in ballistic missile nukes and given the fact that we were investing more and more each day. We had to be sure these things worked and worked well. We had too much invested in all this to hope that things would go well based on individual component testing, especially given the testing was terrestrial, not done with live missiles that found space and then gave it up again to return running so hot to the earth.


Frankly, you are not the least bit qualified to make any such determination.

But how in the world could one figure out if a missile might/could/should/would work? The Kennedy/Johnson Administration had committed the US to the 1963 Partial Test Ban Treaty. THERE WERE TO BE NO ATMOSPHERIC, UNDERWATER OR OUTER SPACE TESTS PERIOD!!!!


"I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth. No single space project in this period will be more impressive to mankind, or more important in the long-range exploration of space; and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish."
--John F. Kennedy, May 24, 1961​

Kennedy must have been extremely prescient to have come up with such a sweeping plan to avoid the treaty more than two years before it was signed, and more than three years before Goldwater and LeMay made their comments.

Additionally, the last flight of Project Mercury, which you claim was part of the "occult" testing program, took place before the treaty was signed.

Goldwater rather eloquently , not to mention with good reason as well, hit hard with the following statement, "We are building a Maginot Line of missiles".


See above.

The "NASA clowns", the very few inside NASA, inside the know, were well aware that they could not detonate warheads in space. But they could get a test, a good one to see how the military stuff worked.


Again, you are in no way qualified to comment on the potential utility of such testing. But just out of curiosity, why do you believe that simply flying a warhead into space without detonating it would provide a particularly meaningful test of whether it would actually detonate if fired for real?
 
You are way off target on that........

Patrick the only thing that truly scares me is your lack of basic understanding of so many varied topics. And this topic includes weapons development (and probably employment as well, but that remains to be seen).

The manned space program is not a cover for covert weapons testing. The world already knew that nuclear weapons were a reality as a result of 2 flights in August 1945, and numerous atmospheric tests carried out by both powers from 1946 to 1963. Both sides had missiles, and knew that they would land where they were aimed at to within a certain PER, and that refinements to the guidance systems would reduce that.

We and by we I mean the Western powers and the Soviets, knew that artificial satellites were key to improving accuracy, not the moon. That is why there are a large number of navigational satellites out there.

The moon

You are way off target on that Border Reiver........

Imagine if your implied point were correct. IMAGINE IF THE ONLY "LIVE" MISSILE WARHEAD TEST WE HAD WAS OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD IN 1962 WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN?

That would mean Border Reiver that over the years, our confidence in our ballistic missile arsenal's operational capacity(Minuteman, Polaris, Poseidon, Trident, MX), the arsenal's operational capacity in the mechanism numbing cold of space(-270 centigrade, -454 Fahrenheit) and the unbelievable heat of reentry was and continues to be based on a single 1962 test, Operation Frigate Bird, a Polaris launched 1,200 miles at Christmas Island 6 May 1962.

How would one know one's reentry vehicle would not drift all over the place? HOW WOULD ONE KNOW THAT ONE'S WARHEADS WOULD NOT BE DAMAGED UPON ACCELERATION, EXPOSURE TO COLD, EXPOSURE TO THE HEAT OF REENTRY? How would one know that reentry vehicle guidance functioned despite exposure to intense acceleration, cold and heat? And on and on. And every time there was/IS IS IS a new warhead, how could/CAN CAN CAN one be sure about this one or that one new thing, piece of equipment, WARHEAD? How did one know in the 60s/70s, how does one know today, how can one be sure that this junk works?

You cannot PUBLICLY fly live warheads through space stuck to the end of a ballistic missile Border Reiver. The military cannot do that, or at least it is publicly forbidden and therefore hard for them to do so due to the test ban treaty, not to mention furious public opposition to atmospheric testing and its resultant fallout and attendant environmental hazards.

What do you think they are up to Border Reiver when those "space capsules" come back down? Some may have men inside of them, but some of them must be "live" warhead tests and also tests conducted in the assessment of other components of our missile systems. One must do this testing LIVE, live in the sense that our manned space program flights participating in this sort of thing carry everything they are supposed to except a trigger to set the nukes off. They can't blow one up. But short of that, anything goes and so anything and everything must must MUST go, otherwise we would not have any sense as to whether or not these things functioned. BORDER REIVER, YOU DON'T PUT ON YOUR SCUBA SUIT IN YOUR HOUSE, WALK AROUND BREATHING FROM YOUR TANK AND WALK AWAY CONVINCED YOU ARE SAFE TO GO DOWN IN THE OCEAN NOW DO YOU?????!!!!??????

How else do you think these guys prove to themselves that this stuff works? You cannot effectively/comprehensively test this stuff here on earth. What do you think the Chinese are doing there in space Border Reiver, playing Go?

The only way to test these weapons is to test them in space under live conditions, all of the components working together. It is as simple as that and it can be no other way. There is too much at stake obviously and one's confidence level must of course be insanely high. This is for all of the marbles, strategic war.

GIVE ME A BREAK BORDER REIVER, ONE LIVE POLARIS LAUNCH AND WE ARE GOING TO INTIMIDATE THE RUSSIANS WITH THAT? THE CHINESE TODAY? DO YOUR HOMEWORK DUDE.......
 
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The only way to test these weapons is to test them in space under live conditions, all of the components working together. It is as simple as that and it can be no other way. There is too much at stake obviously and one's confidence level must of course be insanely high. This is for all of the marbles, strategic war.

GIVE ME A BREAK BORDER REIVER, ONE LIVE POLARIS LAUNCH AND WE ARE GOING TO INTIMIDATE THE RUSSIANS WITH THAT? THE CHINESE TODAY? DO YOUR HOMEWORK DUDE.......


Aren't we consistently launching satellites into orbit on the same rockets we use for nuclear missiles? Wouldn't those rocket launches be the testing that you are talking about?
 
Uh, wasn't there an entire test program in the early 60's dedicated to firing nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles into outer space and actually detonating them there?
 
A important point......

You are way off target on that Border Reiver........

Imagine if your implied point were correct. IMAGINE IF THE ONLY "LIVE" MISSILE WARHEAD TEST WE HAD WAS OPERATION FRIGATE BIRD IN 1962 WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN?

That would mean Border Reiver that over the years, our confidence in our ballistic missile arsenal's operational capacity(Minuteman, Polaris, Poseidon, Trident, MX), the arsenal's operational capacity in the mechanism numbing cold of space(-270 centigrade, -454 Fahrenheit) and the unbelievable heat of reentry was and continues to be based on a single 1962 test, Operation Frigate Bird, a Polaris launched 1,200 miles at Christmas Island 6 May 1962.

How would one know one's reentry vehicle would not drift all over the place? HOW WOULD ONE KNOW THAT ONE'S WARHEADS WOULD NOT BE DAMAGED UPON ACCELERATION, EXPOSURE TO COLD, EXPOSURE TO THE HEAT OF REENTRY? How would one know that reentry vehicle guidance functioned despite exposure to intense acceleration, cold and heat? And on and on. And every time there was/IS IS IS a new warhead, how could/CAN CAN CAN one be sure about this one or that one new thing, piece of equipment, WARHEAD? How did one know in the 60s/70s, how does one know today, how can one be sure that this junk works?

You cannot PUBLICLY fly live warheads through space stuck to the end of a ballistic missile Border Reiver. The military cannot do that, or at least it is publicly forbidden and therefore hard for them to do so due to the test ban treaty, not to mention furious public opposition to atmospheric testing and its resultant fallout and attendant environmental hazards.

What do you think they are up to Border Reiver when those "space capsules" come back down? Some may have men inside of them, but some of them must be "live" warhead tests and also tests conducted in the assessment of other components of our missile systems. One must do this testing LIVE, live in the sense that our manned space program flights participating in this sort of thing carry everything they are supposed to except a trigger to set the nukes off. They can't blow one up. But short of that, anything goes and so anything and everything must must MUST go, otherwise we would not have any sense as to whether or not these things functioned. BORDER REIVER, YOU DON'T PUT ON YOUR SCUBA SUIT IN YOUR HOUSE, WALK AROUND BREATHING FROM YOUR TANK AND WALK AWAY CONVINCED YOU ARE SAFE TO GO DOWN IN THE OCEAN NOW DO YOU?????!!!!??????

How else do you think these guys prove to themselves that this stuff works? You cannot effectively/comprehensively test this stuff here on earth. What do you think the Chinese are doing there in space Border Reiver, playing Go?

The only way to test these weapons is to test them in space under live conditions, all of the components working together. It is as simple as that and it can be no other way. There is too much at stake obviously and one's confidence level must of course be insanely high. This is for all of the marbles, strategic war.

GIVE ME A BREAK BORDER REIVER, ONE LIVE POLARIS LAUNCH AND WE ARE GOING TO INTIMIDATE THE RUSSIANS WITH THAT? THE CHINESE TODAY? DO YOUR HOMEWORK DUDE.......

A important point......

When I wrote above;

"What do you think they are up to Border Reiver when those "space capsules" come back down? Some may have men inside of them, but some of them must be "live" warhead tests and also tests conducted in the assessment of other components of our missile systems."

I did not mean to imply in the above that the capsule was the actual tested warhead.

This is a hypothetical here, but just to give an example, what I mean is events occurred something along these lines; They test a warhead say during a Mercury launch and then feign/stage a phony astronaut recovery. So the rocket would have a warhead all along and the astronaut would never go up. The warhead is recovered and inspected after its flight through space. The astronaut is recovered as a front/cover for a warhead temperature tolerance test. This is the kind of thing that went on.
 
The point about the Pacific Islanders.......does not have to do with their islands being the targets, it has to do with their being hurt if something goes awry. So of course the warhead is not set to detonate over a populated area. If my writing above suggested that I apologize, but I thought the point was obvious.

This is what you wrote:

the U.S.S. Ethan Allen on 6 May 1962 fired a live Polaris 1,200 miles at Christmas Island and blew the thing up, well blew up part of the island anyway.


There is no possible way you meant it figuratively or as a worst case scenario. It was just another example of your atrocious research.

Your whole militarization of the Moon fantasy collapses under the weight that to set up all that equipment on the Moon would require men on location to set it up.
 
How would one know one's reentry vehicle would not drift all over the place? HOW WOULD ONE KNOW THAT ONE'S WARHEADS WOULD NOT BE DAMAGED UPON ACCELERATION, EXPOSURE TO COLD, EXPOSURE TO THE HEAT OF REENTRY? How would one know that reentry vehicle guidance functioned despite exposure to intense acceleration, cold and heat? And on and on. And every time there was/IS IS IS a new warhead, how could/CAN CAN CAN one be sure about this one or that one new thing, piece of equipment, WARHEAD? How did one know in the 60s/70s, how does one know today, how can one be sure that this junk works?


First, missiles are routinely test-fired with dummy warheads, so your points about guidance systems and reentry vehicle drift are simply wrong.

Second, there are, and have been, methods of calculating and testing the reliability of ICBM/SLBM warheads that don't require flying them into space. If you knew anything about engineering you'd understand that.

You cannot PUBLICLY fly live warheads through space stuck to the end of a ballistic missile Border Reiver. The military cannot do that, or at least it is publicly forbidden and therefore hard for them to do so due to the test ban treaty, not to mention furious public opposition to atmospheric testing and its resultant fallout and attendant environmental hazards.


So how would flying a warhead into space on a completely different booster and not actually detonating it serve as a meaningful test?

How else do you think these guys prove to themselves that this stuff works? You cannot effectively/comprehensively test this stuff here on earth. What do you think the Chinese are doing there in space Border Reiver, playing Go?


Again, if you knew anything about engineering you'd know the answer.

The only way to test these weapons is to test them in space under live conditions, all of the components working together. It is as simple as that and it can be no other way.


The components of a warhead would not "work together" if the warhead were not actually detonated. And they wouldn't work with the other components of the missile if they were on the wrong launch vehicle.

There is too much at stake obviously and one's confidence level must of course be insanely high. This is for all of the marbles, strategic war.


"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
--Joshua, War Games

GIVE ME A BREAK BORDER REIVER, ONE LIVE POLARIS LAUNCH AND WE ARE GOING TO INTIMIDATE THE RUSSIANS WITH THAT? THE CHINESE TODAY? DO YOUR HOMEWORK DUDE.......


Who's going to be intimidated if the testing is secret?
 
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