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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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your premise that we believe that the holocaust was a hoax perpetuated by a secret society of Jews hell bent on world domination isn't exactly accurate.

That is exactly what some of us believe. Speak for yourself ! I'll tell your their name, the World Jewish Congress. Their leader, Rabbi Schlomo (?) Wise. Read Butz for crying out loud.

Saggy, I would never presume to speak for you. If you believe there is a secret society of Jews behind the holocaust, explain how this conspiracy works. Explain how all the Jews in the world communicate with each other and coordinate their actions without the non-Jews finding out about it. Please try to make up something more cogent than the "euphemistic" theory of Nazi communication that allowed them to carry out the extermination program in secret.

My opinion is that it's less of a hoax than it is the world's most successful urban myth.

Absolute nonsense and it's easy to demonstrate - there is a hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz, also one at Majdanek, that the holohoax authorities show to the public everyday and make the completely idiotic claims that Jews were gassed in rooms with large glass windows. We know what these rooms really were, they know what they were. They are lying. That is a hoax, not an 'urban myth'. The urban myth idea is complete idiocy. Read Heddesheimer for crying out loud. Urban myths don't introduce themselves in the NYT.

IIRC, Heddesheimer doesn't explain how a detailed holocaust was planned in advance and then implemented. Maybe I should read it again but I don't recall learning anything you can't find out from reading the NYT archives. Every few years starting in early 1900's there would be some press report (often at the behest of the WJC) about millions of Jews suffering in Europe. Six million was a popular number if a specific number was given. Sometimes they were starving. Sometimes they were being intentionally killed. Sometimes they were just having a rough time. Whatever it was, Jews in Europe were in trouble so Americans needed to help. Palestine was sometimes a solution but money was always welcome. American Jews would pony up some cash and be joined by the occasional non-Jews. The crisis would drop out of the newspapers and then resurface a few years later. This went on for forty years or so and nobody outside of the Jewish community really paid any attention. Then, along comes World War II to provide a perfect storm where the United States and fought and defeated an openly anti-Semitic nation and was more than willing to accept that anything bad about the Germans was true. The treatment of the Jews was just one more thing the US could use to bash the Germans so they picked up what the WJC had been whining about for years and ran with it. That's not a conspiracy.

First of all, if the Jews were going for world domination, how would being slaughtered by the millions help them achieve that goal? Second, if the Jews faked their own genocide by manufacturing the millions of pieces of evidence that they were slaughtered by the millions and they were able to put all those pieces of evidence in precisely the right locations all over the world to be discovered so that all the non-Jews in the world would be convinced that something as big as the holocaust happened when it didn't, wouldn't the Jews already control the world?

Someone has stolen Dogzilla's brain. Please return it.

Yes, please do. Because I'm having trouble understanding how a Jewish conspiracy is necessary for the myth of the holocaust. Explain how the Jews decide which Jew is in charge. Explain how the different branches of Judaism decide who is Jewish and who isn't and how they decide which Jews will be in on the conspiracy and who will be left out. Explain how they decide what constitutes the holocaust and what constitutes denial of it. Just how exactly does it all work? Remember, no euphemisms and no secret language. You can't say the Jews issue their orders verbally, that they never write anything down, or they destroy all the evidence after they're through. And don't even mention the use of telepathy.
 
Saggy, I would never presume to speak for you. If you believe there is a secret society of Jews behind the holocaust, explain how this conspiracy works. Explain how all the Jews in the world communicate with each other and coordinate their actions without the non-Jews finding out about it. Please try to make up something more cogent than the "euphemistic" theory of Nazi communication that allowed them to carry out the extermination program in secret.



IIRC, Heddesheimer doesn't explain how a detailed holocaust was planned in advance and then implemented. Maybe I should read it again but I don't recall learning anything you can't find out from reading the NYT archives. Every few years starting in early 1900's there would be some press report (often at the behest of the WJC) about millions of Jews suffering in Europe. Six million was a popular number if a specific number was given. Sometimes they were starving. Sometimes they were being intentionally killed. Sometimes they were just having a rough time. Whatever it was, Jews in Europe were in trouble so Americans needed to help. Palestine was sometimes a solution but money was always welcome. American Jews would pony up some cash and be joined by the occasional non-Jews. The crisis would drop out of the newspapers and then resurface a few years later. This went on for forty years or so and nobody outside of the Jewish community really paid any attention. Then, along comes World War II to provide a perfect storm where the United States and fought and defeated an openly anti-Semitic nation and was more than willing to accept that anything bad about the Germans was true. The treatment of the Jews was just one more thing the US could use to bash the Germans so they picked up what the WJC had been whining about for years and ran with it. That's not a conspiracy.



Yes, please do. Because I'm having trouble understanding how a Jewish conspiracy is necessary for the myth of the holocaust. Explain how the Jews decide which Jew is in charge. Explain how the different branches of Judaism decide who is Jewish and who isn't and how they decide which Jews will be in on the conspiracy and who will be left out. Explain how they decide what constitutes the holocaust and what constitutes denial of it. Just how exactly does it all work? Remember, no euphemisms and no secret language. You can't say the Jews issue their orders verbally, that they never write anything down, or they destroy all the evidence after they're through. And don't even mention the use of telepathy.



IIRC, Heddesheimer doesn't explain how a detailed holocaust was planned in advance and then implemented.


First, you need to modify your language as imprecise or vague words lead to imprecise and vague thoughts - the holocaust was not 'planned', the holocaust did not happen, there is not too much sense in referring to a plan of something that did not happen in a sentence implying that it did happen. I'm not joking here, there was no plan for the holocaust. You can research every event in Auschwitz, or the eastern front, and know all there is to know about these subjects, and still not have any inkling of any plan for a plan for the holocaust, because, as noted, the holocaust DID NOT HAPPEN.

So, of course Heddesheimer did not give a detailed plan for something that did not happen. He did not attempt to give such an account, and if he had it wouldn't have made any sense, as the holocaust, which did not happen, was certainly not planned circa 1920.

Recall, the holocaust is the systematic slaughter of six million Jews in Nazi gas chambers during WW II. Heddeshemier did not explain how this slaughter was planned and implemented. So your sentence is ... nonsensical .... it is misusing common words, or using them with something other than their dictionary definitions. Your sentence as written faults Heddesheimer for failing to give an detailed plan for the execution of the Jews, but that is not what you meant. It is very sloppy wording but what's worse it masks very sloppy thinking.

Do you see this?

The holocaust is what did not happen. The holohoax did happen. The holohoax is the systematic worldwide effort of organized Jewry to convince the world that the holocaust did happen, that is, it is a deliberate hoax. This is what Heddesheimer documents, that is, he documents the efforts of organized Jewry, in particular the World Jewish Congress and other Jewish organizations and individuals, to convince the world that the Jews were being slaughtered in Europe during World War ONE by publishing false accounts of these imaginary massacres. That IS the holohoax. Heddesheimer documents it with articles from the NYT, he reprints the articles, he names the names, he tells who planned it, and how it was implemented.

If you believe there is a secret society of Jews behind the holocaust, explain how this conspiracy works. Explain how all the Jews in the world communicate with each other and coordinate their actions without the non-Jews finding out about it.

The most succinct account is provided in the Irving video linked earlier where he describes how Henry Morgenthau manipulated the War Refugee Board, an arm of the US government, into publishing as fact an UNDOCUMENTED and ANONYMOUS account of the slaughter of Jew in Nazi concentrations camps, that report having been supplied by the WORLD JEWISH CONGRESS. If you want to find the context of this report, which incidentally other departments of the US government knew to be pure BS, and the machinations of the Jews to control US policy regarding post war Europe and the Nuremberg trials, you'll need to read Butz who provides the best and practically only account. Many Jews participated in the creation of the hoax knowing with certainty that it was a pack of lies, this includes every Jew that was in the camps and survive and lied about it. Of course, now many Jews do not know that it is a hoax, but even they participate fully in the hoax by supporting the USHMM, ADL, B'nai B'rith, and their efforts to promote the hoax and to squelch to the point of serious jail time anyone who questions the hoax.

In short, you are spending all your time trying to understand what did and did not happen in the camps - this is admirable, but it is not the holocaust, the holocaust did not happen, and it is not the holohoax, because the holohoax happened outside the camps in the US government, at Nuremberg, in the World Jewish Congress, and in the NYT. If you want to understand the holohoax you have to study the HOLOHOAX, not the non-existent holocaust. See?


Yes, please do. Because I'm having trouble understanding how a Jewish conspiracy is necessary for the myth of the holocaust.


Good Lord, if it wasn't for organized Jewry the holohoax would collapse in a day.


Just how exactly does it all work?


Re-reading your post, I see you ignored the crux of my argument, which of course you had to, as it so completely demolishes the urban myth idiocy. That is the presentation to the public of the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz. How does it work? Ask F. Piper, the whole organization of the museum is public knowledge, their records are likely open, we know all we need to know about it, what they do, how they do it, who does what. The Auschwizm Musuem, or the USHMM, is the holohoax in action. It's not a secret. Look at the USHMM, how it was organzied, built, etc., and recall that it tells you the absurd and obvious lie that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was used to kill Jews. The USHMM is the holohoax. The holohoax is not in the details of the camps in Europe in 1945, it is the operation of the USHMM RIGHT NOW. That is exactly how it works.
 
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Every few years starting in early 1900's there would be some press report (often at the behest of the WJC) about millions of Jews suffering in Europe.
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Then it should be no problem for you to *cite* these press reports, and how you know that they were written at the request of the WJC (which didn't even exist until 1936)

Let's see -- what was documentably happening to Germany's Jews at that time? The something something Laws? And then, a couple of years later, what was that Operation Tannebaum? Tanned Burger with fries? Something like that. What was *that* all about?
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Just to be clear, you don't deny the existence of the evidence supporting the Holocaust, you just believe that the evidence for some facets of the Holocaust are weak or don't exist. Am I correct? When you say there is a tremendous amount for the camps you listed, but they are insufficient, what makes them insufficient? Would a video recording of a real life incident in which Jews were gassed in Birkenau be sufficient? A video that isn't doctored, and can be verified as legitimate, would that be enough?

Anyway, thank you for your reply.

I acknowledge there is a large quantity of evidence for the holocaust. It's been said that the holocaust is one of the best documented genocides in history, or best documented crime, or best documented event or whatever in history. I don't know if that's true but I could believe it. There is alot.

But it isn't sufficient. Most of the evidence is eyewitness testimonies and confessions of the perpetrators. Much of this witness evidence, especially in the beginning, was generated in the context of war crimes trials. That evidence wouldn't be a problem except we're lacking physical evidence that would have to exist if all the claims of what happened in the holocaust were true.

We have a great deal of evidence that Earth has been visited by intelligent life from another planet. We have eyewitness testimony from extremely competent sources. More people have been taken aboard a UFO and been subjected to an anal probe than have actually seen a Nazi gas chamber in operation. We don't accept the existence of UFOs because we don't have the physical evidence to prove their existence.

The vehement hatred spewed at people who question the holocaust and the ever increasing number of countries that actually outlaw questioning the holocaust don't do anything to reduce my suspicion. Truth doesn't need to be legislated.
 
. . . Most of the evidence is eyewitness testimonies and confessions of the perpetrators. Much of this witness evidence, especially in the beginning, was generated in the context of war crimes trials. . . .
This is not true. Let's return, to take one example, to the trial of the Einsatzgruppen leaders, one of the subsequent Nuremberg proceedings. Which you guys shied away from discussing a week or so ago. The prosecution called IIRC 2 witnesses, basing its case entirely on documents - German documents. It was the defense who called the defendants as witnesses, and they fared poorly, helping get themselves convicted.
 
I acknowledge there is a large quantity of evidence for the holocaust. It's been said that the holocaust is one of the best documented genocides in history, or best documented crime, or best documented event or whatever in history. I don't know if that's true but I could believe it. There is alot.

But it isn't sufficient. Most of the evidence is eyewitness testimonies and confessions of the perpetrators. Much of this witness evidence, especially in the beginning, was generated in the context of war crimes trials. That evidence wouldn't be a problem except we're lacking physical evidence that would have to exist if all the claims of what happened in the holocaust were true.

We have a great deal of evidence that Earth has been visited by intelligent life from another planet. We have eyewitness testimony from extremely competent sources. More people have been taken aboard a UFO and been subjected to an anal probe than have actually seen a Nazi gas chamber in operation. We don't accept the existence of UFOs because we don't have the physical evidence to prove their existence.

The vehement hatred spewed at people who question the holocaust and the ever increasing number of countries that actually outlaw questioning the holocaust don't do anything to reduce my suspicion. Truth doesn't need to be legislated.

Oh god, it's the bogus UFO comparison again. Look, if you can find:


  • lots and lots of documents written in Alpha Centauri
  • statements from aliens from Alpha Centauri who had done the probing
  • statements from other aliens from Alpha Centauri who witnessed the probing, but were only here to do a little shopping
  • physical evidence, including: abandoned alien anal probe centres, chemical residues compatible with alien anal probes and a big stock of alien anal probe lube, along with dump sites where probed humans were abandoned
then you can have the comparison. Until then, it doesn't work and only serves to make you look extremely silly. As in, talking out of your arse.
 
This is not true. Let's return, to take one example, to the trial of the Einsatzgruppen leaders, one of the subsequent Nuremberg proceedings. Which you guys shied away from discussing a week or so ago. The prosecution called IIRC 2 witnesses, basing its case entirely on documents - German documents. It was the defense who called the defendants as witnesses, and they fared poorly, helping get themselves convicted.

Dogzilla will now move the goalposts to gassing only. You probably forget that 'Holocaust' means something completely different to him than it does to sane people.
 
The vehement hatred spewed at people who question the holocaust and the ever increasing number of countries that actually outlaw questioning the holocaust don't do anything to reduce my suspicion. Truth doesn't need to be legislated.

Begging the question. Why the vicious hatred over something that allegedly happened almost 70 years ago? If 6 million were killed how many Jewish people directly related to the dead could have survived? The Holocaust is demanding most of Europe's Jewish populace was unable to escape.

It's obvious that the Holocaust has great value and is being milked for all it's worth. As they say in Israel, derisively about American Jewry, "There's no business like Shoah Business."
 
Begging the question. Why the vicious hatred over something that allegedly happened almost 70 years ago?
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The hatred shown here is mainly the deniers. Those of that faith who have offered glimpses of hate -- how would you feel if a real start had been made to eliminate, say, anti-vaccers, and others were trying to pretend 1) it never happened and 2) you deserved it anyway?

It is because haters such as yourself are *still* trying to justify what happened, with an eye to making acceptable to some day happen again that opposition will never cease.
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If 6 million were killed how many Jewish people directly related to the dead could have survived? The Holocaust is demanding most of Europe's Jewish populace was unable to escape.
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Where does "The Holocaust" demand this?

Look, CM, it's easy -- answer this question: What was the pre-war Jewish population in the occupied territories? Minus those who died. Round down for the few entire families who escaped. Then ad a couple hundred thousand for all of the villages who were killed entire.

What does that figure give you? Use both hands and your toes if you have to, and pretend each one is a million.
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It's obvious that the Holocaust has great value and is being milked for all it's worth. As they say in Israel, derisively about American Jewry, "There's no business like Shoah Business."
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No, it is the innocents who died who have great value, and the determination that it Never Happen Again.

And really? You can actually *quote* anyone, anyone at all, in Israel directing that comment at American Jewry?

Because a quick Google shows that it is almost exclusive *deniers* using the phrase derisively (and none of the few others Israeli), showing the hate which is why Holocaust denial and the intellectual bankruptcy behind it needs to be opposed.

Thanks for giving (in the very post in which you asked the question) such a clear answer...
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The hatred shown here is mainly the deniers. Those of that faith who have offered glimpses of hate -- how would you feel if a real start had been made to eliminate, say, anti-vaccers, and others were trying to pretend 1) it never happened and 2) you deserved it anyway?

It is because haters such as yourself are *still* trying to justify what happened, with an eye to making acceptable to some day happen again that opposition will never cease.
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Where does "The Holocaust" demand this?

Look, CM, it's easy -- answer this question: What was the pre-war Jewish population in the occupied territories? Minus those who died. Round down for the few entire families who escaped. Then ad a couple hundred thousand for all of the villages who were killed entire.

What does that figure give you? Use both hands and your toes if you have to, and pretend each one is a million.
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No, it is the innocents who died who have great value, and the determination that it Never Happen Again.

And really? You can actually *quote* anyone, anyone at all, in Israel directing that comment at American Jewry?

Because a quick Google shows that it is almost exclusive *deniers* using the phrase derisively (and none of the few others Israeli), showing the hate which is why Holocaust denial and the intellectual bankruptcy behind it needs to be opposed.

Thanks for giving (in the very post in which you asked the question) such a clear answer...
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http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=163
 
It's worst than that ! I took it one further, who should be the easiest people to convince? The Palestinians, right? They hate the Jews, they know what duplicitous creatures they are. They are murdered and oppressed by the Jews everyday. Surely they will be prime targets, right? Wrong. On campus there was a group Palestinians for Justice or some such (I've forgotten the exact name) and I tried on several, at least 5, occasions to engage members personally in a discussion of the hoax, and 5 more via email. It was if I had leprosy, they absolutely would not discuss any aspect of the holocaust and would even walk away even though they were manning an information table. Absolutely remarkable. Unfortunately I give up easily in personal encounters, but I still think there is some possibility here?


Maybe you should take that as a wake up call that opening a conversation with holocaust denial rhetoric isn't a good way to win friends and influence people. A Palestinian student group on a college campus is probably going to believe the holocaust happened if that is what they've been taught. The holocaust may have helped the Zionist cause by creating sympathetic environment for the founding of the state of Israel. But to the Palestinians, the issue is why should they pay for the crimes that were committed on a different continent by people of a different religion? The truth or lie of the holocaust doesn't change the fact that they were evicted from their land without cause and they want it back.
 
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I keep telling you to *read* your citations.

Care to quote exactly where Zarchin directs the comment derisively at American Jewry?

No, because he does not, and so does not support your posted lie?

Do try again, and read the link this time. Let me save you some time: the Goldberg article listed is a mistake, and doesn't reference that phrase at all.

Nor is there any indication that either of these individuals are Israeli.

However, the other 8 links off that first page are to deniers who are undeniably deniers. Funny, that.
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They hate the Jews, they know what duplicitous creatures they are.

Speaks the racist anti-Semite.


They are murdered and oppressed by the Jews everyday. Surely they will be prime targets, right? Wrong. On campus there was a group Palestinians for Justice or some such (I've forgotten the exact name) and I tried on several, at least 5, occasions to engage members personally in a discussion of the hoax, and 5 more via email. It was if I had leprosy, they absolutely would not discuss any aspect of the holocaust and would even walk away even though they were manning an information table. Absolutely remarkable.

That they recognized you were a kook pedaling fantasy, what's remarkable about that?

Unfortunately I give up easily in personal encounters, but I still think there is some possibility here?

Interesting comment...
 
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The hatred shown here is mainly the deniers. Those of that faith who have offered glimpses of hate -- how would you feel if a real start had been made to eliminate, say, anti-vaccers, and others were trying to pretend 1) it never happened and 2) you deserved it anyway?

It is because haters such as yourself are *still* trying to justify what happened, with an eye to making acceptable to some day happen again that opposition will never cease.
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Where does "The Holocaust" demand this?

Look, CM, it's easy -- answer this question: What was the pre-war Jewish population in the occupied territories? Minus those who died. Round down for the few entire families who escaped. Then ad a couple hundred thousand for all of the villages who were killed entire.

What does that figure give you? Use both hands and your toes if you have to, and pretend each one is a million.
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No, it is the innocents who died who have great value, and the determination that it Never Happen Again.

And really? You can actually *quote* anyone, anyone at all, in Israel directing that comment at American Jewry?

Because a quick Google shows that it is almost exclusive *deniers* using the phrase derisively (and none of the few others Israeli), showing the hate which is why Holocaust denial and the intellectual bankruptcy behind it needs to be opposed.

Thanks for giving (in the very post in which you asked the question) such a clear answer...
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http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/6328



Fake Shoah Memoir Threatens Holocaust Industry

by PENNY SCHWARTZ (JEWISH TELEGRAPH AGENCY)

(EDITOR'S NOTE: Screenwriter-director David Mamet wrote that in Israel, they have a saying -- "There's no business like Shoah business." Shoah is translated as "Holocaust.")

In the wake of the recent disclosure by the author of a Holocaust memoir that her best-selling book is a fake, historians are worried that such incidents will cast doubt on legitimate Holocaust scholarship and memoirs.

Holocaust deniers already are having a field day with the story, observers say.


mischa.JPG
 
A challenge to Dogzilla ..... reconcile your 'urban myth' nonsense with this 8 minute video of David Irving explaining how the hoax, a product of the World Jewish Council, came to be the the official policy of the US govt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S7BrcH-6Yw

I have no trouble reconciling the urban myth with Irving's analysis. If what Irving says is true, we have one person (who happens to be Jewish) issuing disinformation. That's not evidence of a conspiracy. I think you and I look at the same thing and see it differently. You see a Jewish conspiracy. I see a wealthy minority influencing our political agenda. Even Nick Terry acknowledges the influence of the Jewish community in shaping the holocaust agenda. It doesn't require any sort of conspiracy to create the myth of the holocaust. It requires, as Butz has said, nothing more than people lying about their enemies. For me, who promotes the holocaust and for what purpose isn't important. What's important for me is what is true and what isn't.

Since you believe the holocaust is the product a Jewish conspiracy, do you believe that anything about it is true? Was the whole thing created out of nothing?
 
It's been said here that there is no mention of the Holocaust in Churchill's memoirs. I was just watching a documentary on Youtube that quoted Churchill at the end; interestingly, it comes from The Gathering Storm, the first volume of Churchill's multivolume memoir:



Whoops!

Actually it's been said there is no mention of the gas chambers in Churchill's memoirs. Technically that's true although he does mention use of 'advanced scientific apparatus' or something like that. I guess gas or steam hadn't been decided yet.

How does your quote reference the holocaust anyway?
 
Fake Shoah Memoir Threatens Holocaust Industry

by PENNY SCHWARTZ (JEWISH TELEGRAPH AGENCY)

(EDITOR'S NOTE: Screenwriter-director David Mamet wrote that in Israel, they have a saying -- "There's no business like Shoah business." Shoah is translated as "Holocaust.")
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Of course, the *actual* headline is "Faked Shoah memoir spurs concerns" and no where on that page is this "editor's" note.

Care to tell us who that editor was, or even where David Mamet wrote this?

And again, nothing to suggest that Mamet suggested that it was directed against American Jewry.

That's 0 for 2, CM, with several errors on offense.

Care to go for it again, or will you just admit you made the whole thing up?

And while we're at it, still waiting for you to do the math on the survivor issue, or tell us where the Holocaust demands that most European Jews were unable to escape, or by whose research that sign at Auschwitz was changed, or a single lie on the THHP site, or ...
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I have no trouble reconciling the urban myth with Irving's analysis. If what Irving says is true, we have one person (who happens to be Jewish) issuing disinformation. That's not evidence of a conspiracy. I think you and I look at the same thing and see it differently. You see a Jewish conspiracy. I see a wealthy minority influencing our political agenda. Even Nick Terry acknowledges the influence of the Jewish community in shaping the holocaust agenda. It doesn't require any sort of conspiracy to create the myth of the holocaust. It requires, as Butz has said, nothing more than people lying about their enemies. For me, who promotes the holocaust and for what purpose isn't important. What's important for me is what is true and what isn't.

Since you believe the holocaust is the product a Jewish conspiracy, do you believe that anything about it is true? Was the whole thing created out of nothing?

The Holocaust is simply an ethnic group, well known for pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope.
 
Actually it's been said there is no mention of the gas chambers in Churchill's memoirs. Technically that's true although he does mention use of 'advanced scientific apparatus' or something like that. I guess gas or steam hadn't been decided yet.

How does your quote reference the holocaust anyway?
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Actually the last time it was brought up, it was CM quoting some random hater as writing

...how come Eisenhower, De Gaulle, Churchill and everyone else who wrote about their time, never mentioned death camps, gas chambers or crematoriums?

Churchill very plainly refers to death camps

Let's see: who, by and large, were killed in the camps, again?

How's it going on getting that list compiled of all those articles the WJC required be written?
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