Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[little grey rabbit]

Bit of a stretch on your part — and a bigger stretch to attribute that to Breitman (note spelling) when he clearly doesn't say that at all.

Let's see who could have been spying on Syria in 1962, OK? Particularly considering that this was a point before which Israel had come into direct conflict with Syria.

Egypt, for one, could have been spying, considering the fallout of Syria's defection the previous year from the U.A.R. Iraq could have been spying based on its similar political problems with Ba'athists. The Turks could have been spying, as they've been a perennial power player in that region.

But you know who it's far more likely that Breitman was implying? That the U.S. had hired Rademacher. If you'd read the book, you'd know that.

Which is wonderful, except Shin Bet have good as admitted their contacts with Rademacher

He can't have provided very many reports, though, because in July 1963, Syria arrested Rademacher on suspicion of espionage. Israel's domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet later claimed credit for feeding Syria, its enemy, documents incriminating Rademacher. Presumably this was done as a way to punish the Nazi murderer, and the ploy was successful.

Presumably or not, but if Rademacher was communicating using open mail, then they may not have needed Shin Bet.

Walter Rauff - as we all know - was another Nazi war criminal turned Israeli agent.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Natural or not, it was common at the time to discuss such schemes - and not just by anti-semites. Places that were drafted as the new Jewish homeland include a number of absurdities such as Uganda, Central Asian Siberia, Palestine and the south-west corner of Tasmania. . . .

The ellipses points? Eh? Listen, we have a new member you are trying to impress. I suggest you be on your good behavior, for as long as you can do that.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Hello everyone. I've been lurking in these forums, and mainly in this thread now for the better part of the week. I'm still on page 134 so far so I've got quite a bit of catching up to do.

Anyway, I have two questions for the people who deny the holocaust. And I do apologize if they've been asked already.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct. *The holocaust was a hoax perpetuated by a secret society of Jews hell bent on taking over the world, how would that benefit you? *Besides bragging rights, how does it benefit you in any way that the holocaust was fake?

....

I would like an honest answer.

This is an excellent question which I would like to answer (I have no personal objection to answering your other question, BTW).

Possibly you have seen the footage recently coming out of North Korea - adults acting demented with grief over the death of Kim Jung Il, wailing, beating their heads on the ground. Are these carefully produced pictures that don't represent the feelings of the general population? It is impossible to say, but I remember Solzhenitsyn writing that the expressions of grief depicted in the Soviet media over Stalin's death really were repeated at the local level and what a deeply alienating experience that was for him.

Yet even though most North Koreans may well be genuine in public protestations of grief, there will be a small minority of them who do not. We won't ever know the names of these refuseniks, the media won't report there existence, they will die unremarked upon and unremembered. Historians who come later will only find the most obliques references to their existence - assuming they can find any trace of them at all.

And that is the difference between Hoaxsters and Holocaust Deniers. The Hoaxsters are the fat middle-age comparatively affluent (OK its North Korea here) wailing and banging their heads on the ground. The Holocaust deniers are those silent ones who refuse to participate in the communal ritual self-abasement.

But of those two, who gets respect? We may look at the pictures coming out of North Korea and feel compassion to the wailing multitudes as victims of an appalling and insane regime - but we also know that the regime in all its appallingness and insanity cannot survive without them, and deep down we do not respect them. And so it is with Hoaxsters, I feel compassion for the likes of Mr Caution and Wroclaw, but it is impossible to respect them.

We can only hope there is no intelligent life up in space, because secretly we all know they would see only quantitative differences, not qualitative differences between us and North Korea.

 

[LemmyCaution]

LGR often writes in what I apprehend to be intentionally obtuse prose. Here I understand him to be drawing the following analogy: As the dead Stalinist tyrant Kim Jong Il is to most North Koreans, so are the murdered Jews of Europe to Wroclaw and me. Which makes me wonder whether, when he sits down to write out such swill, LGR doesn't sometimes look himself in the mirror and ask about the waste of valuable time on such things, time he could have spent misdating documents or doctoring statements made by Longerich.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Perception is key here. I'm sure the 4 or so of us have a large following of member and non member lurkers. I'm positive many more have come and gone after being awakened to the Holocaust lies and fabrications with nary a post.

The evidence you possess for this "perception" is on a par with the evidence you have presented for claims you make about the Holocaust (e.g., your charges of lying): that is, in your imagination.

 

[Multivac]

Perception is key here. I'm sure the 4 or so of us have a large following of member and non member lurkers. I'm positive many more have come and gone after being awakened to the Holocaust lies and fabrications with nary a post.

I have read most of what you, Saggy and LGR post in this thread, but am far from being a follower or supporter. You would probably call me a zionist, whatever that might mean, while Saggy has called me a degenerate liar and a conformist.

So far the only lies I have seen, or been awakened to, are the ones perpetrated by you, saggy and LGR. Like most people, I continue to visit this thread to learn more about the history of WW2 from Wroclaw, Nick terry, SpitfireIX, Lemmy Caution and others.

 

[Wroclaw]

Which is wonderful, except Shin Bet have good as admitted their contacts with Rademacher

I've told you this before, but I guess I'll have to tell you again: Shin Bet is internal security in Israel. Mossad is foreign intelligence. It makes zero sense that Shin Bet would have had contact with an agent in another country; that's Mossad's purview.

Presumably or not, but if Rademacher was communicating using open mail, then they may not have needed Shin Bet.

Walter Rauff - as we all know - was another Nazi war criminal turned Israeli agent.[/QUOTE]

Rauff seems to have been turned after being betrayed by his former Syrian backers. Israel used him for intelligence and got him to South America.

Of course, if as you believe, nothing was done to the Jews, then what's the problem?

 

[Wroclaw]

Oh, and it was the Yishuv that employed Rauff — not Israel per se.

 

[Saggy]

I have read most of what you, Saggy and LGR post in this thread, but am far from being a follower or supporter. You would probably call me a zionist, whatever that might mean, while Saggy has called me a degenerate liar and a conformist.

So far the only lies I have seen, or been awakened to, are the ones perpetrated by you, saggy and LGR. Like most people, I continue to visit this thread to learn more about the history of WW2 from Wroclaw, Nick terry, SpitfireIX, Lemmy Caution and others.

Sorry, Multivac, I don't believe you, some aspect of your story is false.

There is no way that a rational unbiased human being can learn that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was 'created' after the war by the Poles and not be surprised at a minimum. Or learn that the hoax gas chamber at Majdanek has an unbarred plate glass window. Or learn that the stone plaque at Auschwitz saying that 4 million persons were killed there was replaced in 1989 (approx.) by one that says the number is 1.5 million. Anyone who doesn't react with at least confusion if not outright skepticism to those easily verifiable facts is either brain dead or a shill.

 

[Wroclaw]

Perhaps everyone is not as gullible as Saggy?

 

[LSSBB]

Sorry, Multivac, I don't believe you, some aspect of your story is false.

There is no way that a rational unbiased human being can learn that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was 'created' after the war by the Poles and not be surprised at a minimum. Or learn that the hoax gas chamber at Majdanek has an unbarred plate glass window. Or learn that the stone plaque at Auschwitz saying that 4 million persons were killed there was replaced in 1989 (approx.) by one that says the number is 1.5 million. Anyone who doesn't react with at least confusion if not outright skepticism to those easily verifiable facts is either brain dead or a shill.

You can keep picking the corn out, Saggy, but what you still got is a floater.

 

[Wroclaw]

You can keep picking the corn out, Saggy, but what you still got is a floater.

Nominated for metaphor.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is no way that a rational unbiased human being can learn that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was 'created' after the war by the Poles and not be surprised at a minimum. . . . Anyone who doesn't react with at least confusion if not outright skeptcism to those easily verifiable facts is either brain dead or a shill.

Sorry, but a historical site made a reconstruction and because this reconstruction doesn't make me question the history of the site with its abundant documentation, I am supposed to be brain dead? You don't get out much, do you? Have you ever visited a historical site? Do reconstructed buildings, villages, ships make you doubt the history that such places commemorate? Or is this reflex of yours only something that happens when the Holocaust is involved - kind of like a double standard?

 

[Cyrix686]

Saggy's devastating three pronged attack upon the Holocaust:

1. Not surprised at a reconstruction. Auschwitz is a museum. Why worry?

2. Death tolls should be subject to reasonable revision. You'd think the Revs would be pleased. Nope, not them. They want the number to say, "no Jews were murdered here."

3. I want better than "there's a plate-glass window," Saggy.

This thread is not creating new effective hordes of converts is it? If anything saggs, it's having the opposite reaction with the audience. People keep coming in here and saying bad things about your hoax and disagreeing with you, LGR, DZ and CM.

 

[Saggy]

You can keep picking the corn out, Saggy, but what you still got is a floater.

In a discussion with Zionists scatology is inevitable.

 

[Dogzilla]

Thanks Nick. I ordered Friedleander and Browning's books. For under £20 I'd say it was a good deal. I'll hold off on Longerich until after I finish the other two. Sadly, I won't receive them until after Christmas.

This might have already been suggested. Since the threads been moving at warp speed I haven't been able to keep up properly. But, while you're waiting for those two books to arrive, you can access Christopher Brownings expert report for the Deborah Lipstadt/David Irving trial on the HDOT website.

It looks like the book and the report cover the same material but I don't really know. I picked up a copy of The Origins of the Final Solution in a used book store about three weeks ago (hardcover, perfect condition, $3!) but I haven't started reading it yet. I'm sure the book is far more informative. I thought the expert report was a little light on detail but it's a much shorter read, you can get a copy of it right now, and it's free.

 

[LSSBB]

In a discussion with a Zionist scatology is inevitable.

Wrong again. I am not a Zionist. I have less Jewish blood than Hitler. I believe Israel should vacate the West bank and give full recognition to Palestine as a soveriegn nation. I believe there was a cover up of evidence involving the USS Liberty and a full investigation is long overdue.

I also fully believe, based on what I myself have read and from what evidence I have seen presented here, that there was a Holocaust and Jews died in the gas chambers. It was an act of evil that I hope to God the world will never see again, and any effort to erase that fact I see as not only the height of folly, I believe it is to the full disservice of mankind.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Sorry, Multivac, I don't believe you, some aspect of your story is false.

Or learn that the stone plaque at Auschwitz saying that 4 million persons were killed there was replaced in 1989 (approx.) by one that says the number is 1.5 million. Anyone who doesn't react with at least confusion if not outright skepticism to those easily verifiable facts is either brain dead or a shill.

The above means that for over 40 years the Holocaust puzzle of what happened to most of the 6 million Jewish people was explained by that sign. More damning is that for over 40 years FACTS that supported that sign were researched by Holocaust historians and presented as gospel.
In other words those freaking Holocaust approved historians lied until they were caught.

 

[Cyrix686]

False analogy. Not the same thing at all. North Korea is a paranoid and insular country that has made of its leader a personality cult that even Great Stalin would be truly envious of. Displays of a people's grief when State leaders die are nothing unusual. Although I doubt bunny has been to NK and is just using KJI to get people hopping mad

Hats off to LSSBB for being a human being who can recognize a stain on humanity (the Holocaust) when he sees it.

Not a lie, a revision. Time to put Moore on ignore.

 

[TSR]

The above means that for over 40 years the Holocaust puzzle of what happened to most of the 6 million Jewish people was explained by that sign.

.
Ummm. No,

No one in the West used that figure to explain anything at all. Which is why, when it was changed, it didn't impact the overall death toll in the slightest.
.

More damning is that for over 40 years FACTS that supported that sign were researched by Holocaust historians and presented as gospel.

.
Ummm. No,

That sign was only supported by a flawed methodology. One that everyone knew about. But the USSR, for political reasons of its own, chose to ignore that flaw.
.

In other words those freaking Holocaust approved historians lied until they were caught.

.
Caught by whom, CM? Whose research more or less directly caused that sign to be changed? Which one of your beloved denier heroes led that charge?
.