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Banning Incandescent Light Bulbs?

Oh no! Not this thread again! It is a ban, btw :).

Just reintroduce them to the market as heaters. And yes, they are already doing that:

That was already covered in the other thread (See Method 2):

Wow, nearly 100 posts and 1000 views in 24 hours. A hot issue no matter which way you slice it.

I would like to make an important note. You will still be able to buy the inefficient bulbs for many, many years to come (if not indefinitely).

Method 1: From online places, like eBay. The law covers the manufacture and the import, not the sale of 'old stock'. Even after sellers run out of old stock, there is a very good chance that sellers will be able to "magically" get more "old stock".

(Those familiar with the Laser importing from an old thread in the Science forum may know how. Some lasers (over a certain wattage I believe) are legal to own, but not legal to buy or import into the US. So the seller in China just says that if your package happens to get picked up by customs, then they guarantee to send you another one until one gets through*. From reading laser forums, they are almost never grabbed by customs.) (Obviously a case of light bulbs is quite bulkier than a laser, but customs seems to be lacking either way.)

*Note: I am saying that this is one of the methods that US eBay sellers may use to get more "old stock". Not that average users will do this to get bulbs directly. Though, as seen in the laser thread, it does happen.
Method 2: The inefficient bulbs will still be legal to manufacture and sell in stores in the US if they just add "For Heat Use Only" or "For Outdoor Use Only" to the package. What you then do with the bulb when you get home is up to you.



Incandescents last about 6 months in my Garage door opener. Fluorescents last about 180 days.
In the dining room light fixture, incandescent lights last bout 8 months. Fluorescent light last about 6-7 months.
Where the hell is my savings? Other than the fact the electric bill reduction does cover the cost difference--I got a lot of mercury floating around I have to get rid of...

Mine haven't been lasting as long as claimed either.

What I don't like the most is they take a good 30 seconds to get as bright as they should be, and as long as a minute if the room is cold. This still happens on ones I bought recently.
 
Incandescents last about 6 months in my Garage door opener. Fluorescents last about 180 days.
In the dining room light fixture, incandescent lights last bout 8 months. Fluorescent light last about 6-7 months.
Where the hell is my savings? Other than the fact the electric bill reduction does cover the cost difference--I got a lot of mercury floating around I have to get rid of...
A quick googling turned up this page which includes the information that particular CFLs may need to be used near garage door openers and with dimmers (I know many dining room fixtures include dimmer switches).

Soon after I moved into my apartment, I had to replace the incandescent in the hallway light and did so with a CFL. It's been almost 3 years and that light stays on just about all day.
 
I was on holiday in a hotel in Tunisia last month, and the light in the toilet was one of these newfangled things. Barely enough illumination to find the toilet paper.

I was thinking of complaining to Housekeeping about it, thinking it was faulty, when I realised after having left it on by accident for half an hour or so that it did eventually produce a reasonable amount of light. What use was that? When you go to the loo you're in and out in a few minutes tops, and that's when you want the light.

If I'd been there with my mother, she'd have been in real trouble because of her glaucoma. She would never have been able to see anything at the light level that thing was producing.

Not a fan.

Rolfe.
 
I was on holiday in a hotel in Tunisia last month, and the light in the toilet was one of these newfangled things. Barely enough illumination to find the toilet paper.

I was thinking of complaining to Housekeeping about it, thinking it was faulty, when I realised after having left it on by accident for half an hour or so that it did eventually produce a reasonable amount of light. What use was that? When you go to the loo you're in and out in a few minutes tops, and that's when you want the light.

I have a bathroom light like that, it's a compact fluorescent but has a much different base than the screw-in type. The older the bulb gets, the longer it takes to get bright. Damn things cost like $10 each at a specialty lighting store. I bought the fixture (which also has a fan) at Home Depot, but they don't even sell the light for the fixture they sell. :mad:
 
May the minions, parrots, lackeys, and monkeys of those with Liberal Authoritarian Controller Personality Disorder, who crusaded merrily for the CFL scheme, all go to the corner and hold hands in a circle and sadly share their sorrows.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70534.html

Controlling the behavior of those dumb humans is such a thankless task, but somebody's got to do it.

:)

No....they don't.
 
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May the minions, parrots, lackeys, and monkeys of those with Liberal Authoritarian Controller Personality Disorder, who crusaded merrily for the CFL scheme, all go to the corner and hold hands in a circle and sadly share their sorrows.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70534.html

Controlling the behavior of those dumb humans is such a thankless task, but somebody's got to do it.

:)

No....they don't.

You mean people will have to figure out for themselves which type of bulb is best suited for their own particular application? Unbelievable.

Maybe now we can focus on the real environmental hazard; long hair. Buzz cuts for everyone, no need to blow dry and waste precious electrons. Buzz cuts will save a gagillion kilowatts each year and prevent oodles of mercury from entering the environment. :p
 
Maybe now we can focus on the real environmental hazard; long hair. Buzz cuts for everyone, no need to blow dry and waste precious electrons. Buzz cuts will save a gagillion kilowatts each year and prevent oodles of mercury from entering the environment. :p

But what about the electric clippers!
 
I would just like to add that again, these new swirly lightbulbs are supposed to be "super efficient" yet are environmentally hazardous, creating more obstacles for the average joe to dispose of them.

How about developing a non-mercury filled lightbulb that's more energy efficient?
 
How about developing a non-mercury filled lightbulb that's more energy efficient?
They have already. It's called an LED Lamp. :)

The mercury in a compact fluorescent gets absorbed during use, so by the time it's worn out the hazard is minimal. Just don't break a new one!

And what about that old trusty incandescent. No mercury involved there, right? Wrong! Due to the greater amount of fossil fuel derived electricity that it consumes, it is responsible for 3.6 times more mercury emissions than an equivalent CFL.

But the old incandescent is cheap, provides instant light, and doesn't flicker. Without intervention in the marketplace people will keep on using them, even though they are damaging the environment. Yet another Tragedy of the Commons, and what do we intend to do about it? Nothing! :mad:
 
They have already. It's called an LED Lamp. :)

Sadly no, they aren't. I posted a link in this thread or the other thread about the mercury used to manufacture LED's. It's less than the CFL's, even the new ones, but still considerably more than the incandescent lights which don't produce any in their manufacture.

None the less LED's are far superior to either and are the future of lighting.
 
You mean people will have to figure out for themselves which type of bulb is best suited for their own particular application? Unbelievable.

Maybe now we can focus on the real environmental hazard; long hair. Buzz cuts for everyone, no need to blow dry and waste precious electrons. Buzz cuts will save a gagillion kilowatts each year and prevent oodles of mercury from entering the environment. :p

Indeed, I see that you are trembling at the fearsome option of making your own choices. But do not worry. Even though squashed like bugs at the level of federal light bulb politics, you can take solace in that there ARE STILL LIGHT BULB TRUTHERS AROUND!!!

Yes, indeed. All is not lost! Some of these truthers are in this very forum, and if politely asked (or likely even if not asked) they will shine in their truthiness and lecturosity regarding Proper Bulb Behavior.
 
You know, when I had some of those CFLs in my home, I kept wooden sticks and buckets of tar closeby, so that I could lite up a torch going into those areas, and actually have some light to see by, while at the same time being environmentally friendly. But now the CFLs are all gone, thrown in the (regular) trash.

They have already. It's called an LED Lamp. :)

The mercury in a compact fluorescent gets absorbed during use, so by the time it's worn out the hazard is minimal. Just don't break a new one!

And what about that old trusty incandescent. No mercury involved there, right? Wrong! Due to the greater amount of fossil fuel derived electricity that it consumes, it is responsible for 3.6 times more mercury emissions than an equivalent CFL.

But the old incandescent is cheap, provides instant light, and doesn't flicker. Without intervention in the marketplace people will keep on using them, even though they are damaging the environment. Yet another Tragedy of the Commons, and what do we intend to do about it? Nothing! :mad:
In my opinion (and I do realize it is a minority view) all of the people who "Claim" through some convoluted snakesnest of snarklogic that CFLs are more "environmentally friendly" should have their heads held down next to carpet that has some busted CFL dust and fragments.

In fact, I think for these truthers to prove that they really believe what they say, they should willingly break some CFLs, using those environmental nazi stormtrooper jackboots, and inhale deep those rich vapors.

There's no need to smoke it. Inhaling is enough.

Then they can say "Goodbye".

:)
 
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They have already. It's called an LED Lamp. :)

I like LED bulbs, but they're still absurdly expensive.

But the old incandescent is cheap, provides instant light, and doesn't flicker. Without intervention in the marketplace people will keep on using them, even though they are damaging the environment. Yet another Tragedy of the Commons, and what do we intend to do about it? Nothing! :mad:

People keep going on vacation too, even though that's damaging the environment. What are you going to do about that?

And it's not even true that incandescents are a tragedy of the commons situation. They aren't. Consumers who use them pay more for their use (and thus the environmental damage they cause). So there is, in fact, already a built-in incentive for everyone to use them less, and that incentive operates on an individual level. And plenty of people have switched over without having to be forced to, precisely because their use costs money.

That's what I did a few years ago. I've got almost exclusively CFL bulbs in my house because I wanted to lower my energy bill. But I resent being told I don't have any choice in the matter. I resent being told that there are no reasons that could justify choosing differently. I resent being told I'm not an adult who can make my own responsible choices. Maybe you feel like it's fine for the state to treat you like a child, but I don't.
 
I like LED bulbs, but they're still absurdly expensive.



People keep going on vacation too, even though that's damaging the environment. What are you going to do about that?

And it's not even true that incandescents are a tragedy of the commons situation. They aren't. Consumers who use them pay more for their use (and thus the environmental damage they cause). So there is, in fact, already a built-in incentive for everyone to use them less, and that incentive operates on an individual level. And plenty of people have switched over without having to be forced to, precisely because their use costs money.

That's what I did a few years ago. I've got almost exclusively CFL bulbs in my house because I wanted to lower my energy bill. But I resent being told I don't have any choice in the matter. I resent being told that there are no reasons that could justify choosing differently. I resent being told I'm not an adult who can make my own responsible choices. Maybe you feel like it's fine for the state to treat you like a child, but I don't.


This may have been discussed on this thread already (I haven't scanned back through it all - so if I'm repeating anything, sorry!), but there's a fundamental fallacy about energy efficiency of CFL lighting vs incandescent tungsten filament lighting, if one lives in a cool or cold climate. The entirety of the the energy "wastage" of tungsten-filament bulbs is through heat. In other words, as well as converting electrical current to energy in the form of light - seen as the primary function of a light bulb - a greater amount of electrical energy in these bulbs is given out in the form of heat.

Conventional wisdom suggests that this heat generation is "wasted" energy, and it's this "wastage" against which newer CFL (and other) bulbs are compared. But if one lives in a cool climate, in a house with normal levels of access to daylight (i.e. normal amounts of windows!), then there are two important factors at play: 1) You usually only put lights on when there is little or no daylight, and 2) At the times when there is little or no daylight, there is usually a requirement to heat the house to some degree.

Suppose that you wish the interior temperature of your house to be 20 degrees celsius, and that the outside temperature is (say) 10 degrees. you will probably have to heat your interior air in order to achieve your desired interior temperature - particularly if the outside air temperature has been lower than you desired interior temperature for some hours.

Now, if you have "low energy" light bulbs, there are probably only two or three heat sources in the room in which you are sitting watching TV (or reading Proust, or playing charades, or whatever :)): the radiant heat from human bodies, heat given off by any electrical equipment, and heat provided by dedicated heating devices (fan heaters, central heating, gas fire, etc). These will all have to work together - and consume energy from food, gas, oil, coal, wood or electricity proportionately - to raise the air temperature to the desired level.

BUT...... if you have tungsten bulbs in the lights in the room, then the "wasted" energy is not really being wasted at all. In fact, these bulbs are providing heat through conduction and convection to the surrounding air, in exactly the same way (though on a much smaller scale) as a wall-mounted radiator would do. Therefore, physics dictates that it would now require proportionately less energy to be consumed by the other heat sources to bring the interior air temperature to the desired level. Thus, the heat generated by incandescent bulbs is not "wasted" in this scenario - instead, it translates into a commensurate energy saving in other heat sources for any given desired air temperature. The only issue is whether the heat energy from an incandescent bulb is efficiently transferred to the air, to which the answer is that yes, it's pretty efficient. Touch the outside of a tungsten bulb that's been on for 30 minutes, and you risk burning your hands. So the bulb is acting as a very hot mini-radiator.

The upshot is that it's often fallacious to think that one is saving considerable household energy by switching to the newer bulbs, if one lives in a reasonably cool climate. Conversely, in warmer climates, there is a very strong argument for getting rid of tungsten bulbs - since not only is this heat energy now truly "wasted", but it either makes the interior air temperature even more uncomfortable, or it necessitates even more energy to be spent on air conditioning to reduce the air temperature to the required level.

Again, apologies if this has been discussed at any length before!!
 
This (the overturning of the ban) was almost bound to happen.

...and, yes, LondonJohn the heating benefits of the old style bulbs was already discussed in this thread.

If the house is already heated by an electric heater (especially one that heats up a coil), and the house is in a cold climate, then the CFLs don't save anywhere near as much on electricity because the heater has to work more.

A couple light bulbs in each room of a 10 room house can actually produce is decent amount of heat.
 
May the minions, parrots, lackeys, and monkeys of those with Liberal Authoritarian Controller Personality Disorder, who crusaded merrily for the CFL scheme, all go to the corner and hold hands in a circle and sadly share their sorrows.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70534.html

Controlling the behavior of those dumb humans is such a thankless task, but somebody's got to do it.

:)

No....they don't.

I guess you feel pretty silly for stocking up on all those incandescent bulbs!

-Bri
 
I like LED bulbs, but they're still absurdly expensive.

I just bought one from Home Depot for $20 (it's even dimmable). Not bad for a bulb that I should never have to replace again.

It should be pointed out that Bush's law specifying the new standards hasn't been repealed, it's just not being funded.

Regardless, the genie is already out of the lamp. According to ABC News:

So today Congress took the teeth out of the incandescent ban by eliminating the funds the Department of Energy would need to enforce it.

But what many Republicans are celebrating as a win for individuals’ light-bulb-choosing freedom will probably not save the energy-guzzling bulbs from disappearing off store shelves.

“The industry has moved on,” said Larry Lauck, a spokesman for the American Lighting Association.

Lauck said U.S. light bulb manufacturers have already “retooled” their production lines to build more efficient bulbs, he said.

Joseph Higbee, a spokesman for the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, which represents 95 percent of U.S. light bulb manufacturers, said even if the Department of Energy does not have the funding to enforce the energy efficiency standards, manufacturers are not going to retro-fit their assembly lines to produce the traditional, less-efficient bulbs.

“The manufacturers have invested millions into the transitions and a delay in enforcement undermines those investments and creates regulatory uncertainty,” Higbee said. “Without [federal] enforcement, it does allow bad actors to sell noncompliant products without fear of enforcement and that creates a competitive disadvantage for law-abiding companies.”​

Incandescent bulbs are on their way out, whether mhaze wants them or not.

-Bri
 
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I resent being told I'm not an adult who can make my own responsible choices. Maybe you feel like it's fine for the state to treat you like a child, but I don't.

We already have efficiency, safety, and pollution standards for a lot of other products.

-Bri
 
I guess you feel pretty silly for stocking up on all those incandescent bulbs!

-Bri
Not at all. Not all investments pay off, and those bulbs will all get used and used up. Certainly in the course of 3-5 years.

As noted on this thread, they are nice little heaters as well as providing light. Ingenious little gadget, really.

One of the first places I put LEDs was the kitchen, because the incadescents put out heat, and in the Texas summer, with the stove on, that made no sense. But another room, that runs colder in the winter, does quite nicely with supplemental heat from six incadescents.

So yes, the subject here really is bossy, often quite ignorant, politically correct liberals who happen to be trying to tell other people what to do and not do. And some of us, like me, have advanced degrees in science and considerable experience in engineering.

Yes, including lighting.

Duhhh.....
 

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