Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[smkovalinksy]

Court: Evidence Against Knox Was Weak

(MILAN, Italy) — The Italian appeals court that overturned Amanda Knox's murder conviction in the slaying of her British roommate gave the reasons for its ruling on Thursday: the evidence that had been used by a lower court against the American and her Italian boyfriend just didn't hold up.

Those shortcomings included no murder weapon, faulty DNA, an inaccurate time for the killing, and insufficient proof that Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were even at the location where the crime occurred. So said the Perugia appellate court in its long-awaited reasoning behind its October ruling that reversed the lower court's convictions.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2102615,00.html#ixzz1ghV8KRel

 

[smkovalinksy]

I had felt that Judge Hellmann would be very harsh with the Mignini and Massei reasoning; I also believed the calumnia charge and Hellmann's talking to the press after the acquittals would not in any way mar the harshness of his judgement regarding the process which led to the convictions:

Police and prosecutors blasted for 'harsh treatment' of Amanda Knox and outlandish theories over Meredith Kercher's murder

Police and prosecutors were today slammed by a judge for their harsh treatment of Amanda Knox during questioning and for sloppy investigative methods.
Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman was critical of prosecutor Giuliano Mignini for his outlandish theories in the murder case of British student Meredith Kercher, 21, who was found semi naked and with her throat cut.
Miss Knox, 24, and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 27, were initially found guilty of her murder and sexual assault but then sensationally cleared on appeal two months ago.
In his 142 page report Judge Hellman attacked the original 2009 trial - which had seen Miss Knox given a 26 year prison sentence and Mr Sollecito one of 25 years - and prosecutor Mr Mignini saying the verdict had been reached 'with contradictions in logic and facts'.Judge Hellman noted how in his summing up Mr Mignini - who has been convicted for abuse of office - had said the word 'probably no fewer than 39 times' as he sought frantically to have Miss Knox and Mr Sollecito both convicted.
The report also pointed out how Miss Knox had been subjected to a 'long and arduous' police interrogation, following the murder four years ago in the Italian hilltop town of Perugia, noting that she was a 'foreigner and spoke barely a word of Italian'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...harsh-treatment-Foxy-Knoxy.html#ixzz1ghYV5pTX

 

[Keeper]

UK broadsheets all covering this.

Can't find anything in the Mail or Mirror. Funny that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the burden of proving contamination

Elsewhere komponisto wrote, "Of particular note: the doctrine that the burden is on the defense to prove contamination is specifically repudiated." This is something that is very gratifying to see. It would set an extremely bad precedent to put the burden of proving it on the defense; as many have indicated, the exact route of contamination is not always known.

 

[smkovalinksy]

From Frank Sfarzo: PERUGIA SHOCK

"Silence, Please." Now Hellmann and Zanetti speak.
Image URL from Sfarzo's Perugia Shock

IN THEIR OWN WORDS The Motivation Document Step by Step
http://perugiashock.com/2011/12/16/...uittal-of-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/

 

[smkovalinksy]

Nice to see Judge Hellmann come out decisively regarding all the little details which always vexed and baffled:

Judge Hellmann has no doubt the evidence does not pin Ms Knox, 24, and Mr Sollecito, 27, to the murder. The judge ridiculed attempts to demonise Ms Knox because she bought underwear days after the murder and dismissed suspicions of Ms Knox that were prompted by her kissing Mr Sollecito and turning cartwheels at the police station.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/judge-s...f-knox-case-20111216-1oyml.html#ixzz1ghr7LK9n

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Andrea Vogt speaks

Andrea wrote, "While her most avid supporters have been busy pursuing writing and speaking engagements about the fight for her release, she has not given a single public interview, choosing instead to keep a low profile."

I know that Bruce Fisher has a new book out, but speaking engagements? I am not sure to whom she refers.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Frank blogs about Hellmann Zanetti report

"Silence, please

Now Helmann and Zanetti speak"

, I love his style

 

[bookworm]

from the Milan AP-
The appellate court even contradicted the lower court's time of death, saying it happened at around 10:15 p.m., not after 11 p.m.


So this aligns with a lot of what was said here too...including the 10:13 ping and Rudy saying he'd fled by 10:30apprx. , which also fit with the Tow Truck incident.

and the man who bumped into Formica, and the car parked in front of the gate the TowTruck driver saw is still a large unknown.... Rudys accomplice?
Was Alessi telling the truth of Rudys prison yard chats explaining what happened? Very possible, imo.

It's very possible that the car the tow truck driver saw parked in the driveway was Kokomani. I've always thought he bears more looking into. I personally believe he was there that night, whether inside or more likely outside in his car waiting for Rudy.

 

[bookworm]

Edited by Darat: 

Moderated thread.

If Kokomani was waiting in the driveway for Rudy, believing that he was only robbing the place, when Rudy ended up unexpectedly commiting a murder he may not want to return to Kokomani's car with blood all over him. Possibly he would have just run away, in the process bumping into Formica.

The problem I'm having with Kokomani or any other car for that matter being in the driveway at the time of the murder is that - wouldn't Meredith have seen the car when she returned home if Rudy was already inside? I don't know the setup of the home and driveway in relation to where the driveway is and where the door is.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Perugia Shock weighs in.

Frank Sfarzo has a good summary here.

 

[NewtonTrino]

The calunnia charge is ridiculous in the extreme, but whatever, it's water over the bridge at this point.

I'm glad that some amount of sanity has prevailed in Italy.

Edited by Darat: 

Moderated thread.

Hopefully Amanda isn't going to be dumb and blow through all the money she's going to make from this.

I don't necessarily blame the Kercher family but hopefully they get a reality check and actually look at the facts. They've had one put over on them by the prosecution, the cops and especially Maresca.

You guys know I don't proof read these right?

 

[Fine]

An interesting development.........

"Raphael went to Perugia recently to deposit a crucifix and pray in front of the house of the crime." (See: HERE.)

Is Mignini now investigating, hoping to charge Raffaele with trespassing too?


///

 

[smkovalinksy]

I am amazed to see that on certain sites, it is being concluded that Hellmann had to have been bribed in order to come up with this reasoning.

This conclusion is reached after having discarded the idea that political pressure from within Italy or from the United States could have been responsible ( I would agree that these theories ought to be dismissed). But in its place is put the idea that the Sollecito's Mafia connections bought Hellmann off.

This seems to me to be a very poor view of Hellmann's Motivation report. CNN reports as I stated elsewhere that an appeal would be merely on very narrow technical grounds, and should take a day or two at the most. I wish that it would be over, so that the Court of Cassation in Rome might be seen to be mafia-influenced as well.

 

[LondonJohn]

I stll think the evidence points to a time of death about an hour earlier than that. If may be, of course, that 22.15 is the latest possible time, rather than the actual time.

I think Rudy (+/- accomplices) fled about 22.15-ish. I think Meredith had been dead for about an hour by then, but there's all the subsequent faffing around with washing blood off trousers and so on to account for.

Rolfe.

Yes, I understand that Hellmann's ruling is that the murder must have occurred by 22.15 at the latest. Like you, I think all the available evidence clearly tends to indicate a ToD before 9.30pm.

By the way, on the "free speech" issue, individuals should be aware that accusing an Italian appeal court judge of corruption or susceptibility to bribery is defamation, and is almost certainly an actionable criminal offence under Italian law. You know the one: criminal slander.

Edited by Darat: 

Moderated thread.

 

[LondonJohn]

Interestingly, Mignini seems to be telling anyone who will listen that the Hellmann verdict will be appealled. However Costaglioli, who is the person who actually has the power to lodge a prosecution appeal, is sticking with "no comment".

At the same time we're told that Maresca has announced that he will definitely appeal. This could be the reason Mignini says there will certainly be an appeal, even though Costaglioli is being tight-lipped about it. Is Maresca allowed to appeal on behalf of the Kerchers, even if the prosecution doesn't appeal? On what grounds?

It seems to me that Maresca was there as the agent of the Kerchers, in their case against Knox and Sollecito for damages in respect of their liability for Meredith's death. This is subtly different from his being an agent of the prosecution. I would have thought that if the prosecution itself doesn't appeal, then Knox and Sollecito are judged blameless of Meredith's death, therefore Maresca has no case.

Can he really appeal the acquittal even if Costaglioli doesn't?

Rolfe.

Oh, and as I was posting my last post, I saw I spelled Patrick's name "Partick". That's a place name round here, so it doesn't look wrong to me or my spell-checker. If the post isn't approved within the editing window, accept my apologies for this and other typos.

Maresca can't appeal the criminal verdict. In the criminal case, he is merely representing the victim (or, more accurately, the victim's family). He is a direct plaintiff in the civil case, but that's not appealable. The only parties that can appeal the criminal verdicts are the prosecution and the defence.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm going to take one last kick at the cat, because even I suspect that Hellmann is allowing room for eventual overturning of calunnia. (And I don't give up a position easily.)

The one difference between Guede/Kercher and Knox/Lumumba is that the former does have his DNA all over the place at the crime scene. So it is not a good parallel. Even though their horribly criminal encounter on Nov 1 was "unlikely", it did, in fact, happen.

The lack of connection between Lumumba and Knox still remains that - no reason for Knox to corroborate anything the police told her.

But if overturned on final appeal, I can still claim some moral point - the point being, that one needs to dig deep into one's soul to find the strength to utter the truth sooner than a young, unstreetwise, foreigner managed in 2007.
I think we all should be muted in our high fives, though. This is still a story of a horrible murder of a true innocent.

I agree - and I really don't think anyone here has been metaphorically high-fiving anyhow. Everyone commenting here is acutely aware that this was a brutal, tragic and senseless murder of a promising young woman. But similarly most of us are aware that the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito in this case was a malicious abomination. The fact that Hellmann's court appears to have come to an extremely similar conclusion is vindication of our collective position - in the face of aggressive and often unpleasant opposition - but it's no cause for celebration.

Here's the truth: Rudy Guede killed Meredith Kercher. He almost certainly acted alone, and he almost certainly entered the cottage by breaking in through Filomena's window. Knox and Sollecito should never have been criminally prosecuted for the murder, and nor should they have been held in custody for any more than a month or two maximum. And it's highly likely that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything whatsoever to do with the murder or its aftermath. That is the truth of the matter. And it appears to be Hellmann's court's conclusion as well. This is neither a coincidence nor a cause-effect situation. Hellmann's court came to the same conclusions as most of us here because it's what all the available evidence indicates.

 

[LondonJohn]

By way of TJMK and pmf:
Hellmann has ruled sharply and decisively, as was supposed he would:

Page 8
Lumumba was arrested following “spontaneous” Knox’s statements.Please note: Court’s quote.

Page 11
The previous report is long even (italian: “ben”) 425 pages.

Page 12
Quintavalle: testimony, however, after one year

Page 27 Guede and sentence of Supreme Court. The sentence is not binding for the Appeal Court mainly because: defendants would be judged on the basis of evidence obtained in their absence during Guede’s trial; Guede’s trial was fast Track (“abbreviato”).
<snip>

This is something that many of us pointed out repeatedly at the time. Guede's rulings simply had zero relevance to the trial process of Knox and Sollecito. Anyone with any knowledge of law and jurisprudence should have known this. The apparent fact that Mignini and his cohorts tried to argue otherwise - and that various "legal luminaries" among the pro-guilt commentator group tried to do likewise - is mystifying to me and very embarrassing to them.

 

[Malkmus]

Looking at reactions outside JREf, I'm noticing a lot of people seriously stating that Hellman must have been paid off. Don't think they realize that this doesn't fit at all with him upholding the calunnia, and even harder to reconcile with a unanimous decision from the lay judges.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This is something that many of us pointed out repeatedly at the time. Guede's rulings simply had zero relevance to the trial process of Knox and Sollecito. Anyone with any knowledge of law and jurisprudence should have known this. The apparent fact that Mignini and his cohorts tried to argue otherwise - and that various "legal luminaries" among the pro-guilt commentator group tried to do likewise - is mystifying to me and very embarrassing to them.

Yes. I had thought all of this as well, and felt I must be sorely lacking in some secret knowledge or something when PG posters insisted that the Guede ruling had already absorbed and indicted Knox and Sollecito.

Even now, accusations that Hellmann must have been paid by the Sollecito's Mafia connections ( ) , and that somehow Mignini's appeal will prevail - against the assertion that an appeal will be at most a one day affair, and argued only from a very narrow purview of technical squabbling - is being bolstered by the old and now threadbare standby of "Well, we expected this; it does not change anything". But of course it does; of course it does .... "Mama mia", the same was said about the independent experts' ruling on DNA, on acquittals, etc.

I am certain that when Hellmann is upheld in Rome, some will still say, "But it changes nothing." Oy vey, why bother to have courts, then?