JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[HSienzant]

They didn't.

They didn't get them together to plan the conspiracy / coverup, or they didn't get they to stay silent, Robert?

If the former, how'd they plan it across so many agencies?

If the latter, which of these people below have *confessed* to being involved in a conspiracy / coverup, Robert?

Involved in the conspiracy or coverup of the conspiracy according to you thus far:

Nicholas Katzenbach, LBJ, the two cubans, Oswald or the Oswald look-alike who made the JFK should be shot remarks, the forger(s) of the back yard photos, Lt Day of the DPD crime lab, and now, some unnamed members of the FBI.

...How'd they get all those guys together and agree to do this?

How'd they get all them guys to stay silent for nearly 50 years?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

The Fatal Bullet from the Grassy Knoll​

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence Charles A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Had I been allowed to testify, I would have told them that there is no doubt in my mind that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll area...The entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing...based on my experience with trauma to the head from gunshots, I knew that only a high velocity bullet from a rifle could dissect a cranium that way. Part of his brain, the cerebellum, was dangling from the back of his head...The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wounds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."
,

Have you actually *read* the book by Crenshaw?

He himself offers a number of descriptions of what he saw in his own book.

Here they are:

Pg 2: "The entire right hemisphere of President Kennedy's brain was obliterated. . . . "
Pg 78: "Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."
Pg 86: "His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater, an empty cavity."
Pg 87: (Quoting Kemp Clark): "My God, the whole right side of his head is shot off... We've got nothing to work with."
Pg 89: "... there is still nothing that can save a victim who loses the entire right side of his brain."

Do ANY of those descriptions *from his book* sound like the back of the head was blown out?

Note the description on page 78 sounds a whole like what we see in the Z-film and the extant autopsy photos. If Crenshaw is a witness for you, you got some re-thinking to do.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

For years there was much confusion over apparently conflicting photographs of JFKs head wounds. Some books (and I have a worrying feeling Best Evidence may have been one of them) suggested all kinds of odd theories. The wounds were altered, a body swapped, etc. But the simplest answer is this; the photos with wounds that don't match JFK do match the wounds one of his secret service got. Who was in the car with JFK, and who bore a passing resemblence to the president.


So is it more likely the totality of evidence in the Warren Commission is based on lies, or those few quotes were innaccurate? After all faking the Warren Commission also meant faking the Zapruda film, etc. Or perhaps understandably, as there are two folks with a passing resemblence, and massive headwounds complicating identification, the quotes are from folks who had confused the body (and curse google image searches with the wrong photo causing all this inane paranoia.)

Best Evidence by David Lifton is the wackiest of them all. His theory was (as still is) that JFK's wounds were altered sometime after the shooting (but before the official autopsy) to make it appear JFK was shot from the rear only. As he explained it in his book, all the real shooters had to be from the front, so the wound alterers could modify the entry wounds and make them into exit wounds, and add entry wounds in the rear of the body to make it look like JFK was shot only from behind.

His theory has a number of holes, none of which he has subsequently addressed:

1. Wounds made on dead bodies look nothing like wounds made on living, breathing humans, and would fool no one.
2. What the alterationists did with the real exit wounds on the rear of the body is left unexplained.
3. His theory of necessity means Governor Connally's wounds were also altered (since if the shooters were in front, and Connally has an apparent entry wound in his back, Connally could only have had his wounds altered at some time to add the fake entry wound).

When I asked him about this in person in a 1991 ASK conference in Dallas, he told me he would address it in his next book on the subject. Twenty years later, still no explanation.

 

[HSienzant]

For years there was much confusion over apparently conflicting photographs of JFKs head wounds. Some books (and I have a worrying feeling Best Evidence may have been one of them) suggested all kinds of odd theories. The wounds were altered, a body swapped, etc. But the simplest answer is this; the photos with wounds that don't match JFK do match the wounds one of his secret service got. Who was in the car with JFK, and who bore a passing resemblence to the president.


So is it more likely the totality of evidence in the Warren Commission is based on lies, or those few quotes were innaccurate? After all faking the Warren Commission also meant faking the Zapruda film, etc. Or perhaps understandably, as there are two folks with a passing resemblence, and massive headwounds complicating identification, the quotes are from folks who had confused the body (and curse google image searches with the wrong photo causing all this inane paranoia.)

No Secret Service agent was shot in the line of duty that day in Dallas (or even while off-duty).

Governor Connally was the only other person in the car wounded. James Tague, a bystander, was nicked on the cheek by a fragment of concrete or a piece of bullet after it had struck a curb during the shooting.

Those three men are the only three people in Dealey Plaza to have been wounded by gunfire that day.

Dallas Police Officer J.D.Tippit was shot and killed within about 45 minutes of the assassination a few miles from the assassination scene and about .85 miles from Oswald's roominghouse, where he had been about fifteen minutes before to pick up his revolver. The evidence in that Tippit case clearly points to Oswald as the shooter. Tippit was shot in the head execution-style as he died on the street after being shot several times in the body. Some conspiracy folks claim Tippit bore a resemblance to JFK. Goggle J.D.Tippit to see some images.

Tippit's autopsy was in Dallas at Parkland Hospital, JFK's in Bethesda in Washington D.C. Not sure how the autopsists could be confused looking at the wrong photos.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

 

[Robert Prey]

Have you actually *read* the book by Crenshaw?

He himself offers a number of descriptions of what he saw in his own book.

Here they are:

Pg 2: "The entire right hemisphere of President Kennedy's brain was obliterated. . . . "
Pg 78: "Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."
Pg 86: "His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater, an empty cavity."
Pg 87: (Quoting Kemp Clark): "My God, the whole right side of his head is shot off... We've got nothing to work with."
Pg 89: "... there is still nothing that can save a victim who loses the entire right side of his brain."

Do ANY of those descriptions *from his book* sound like the back of the head was blown out?

Note the description on page 78 sounds a whole like what we see in the Z-film and the extant autopsy photos. If Crenshaw is a witness for you, you got some re-thinking to do.
Hank

Thanks. So, I take it you accept Crenshaw as a credible witness. But you have somehow seen to omit certain assertions:

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence" by Charles A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Had I been allowed to testify, I would have told them that there is no doubt in my mind that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll area...

...The entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing...

...based on my experience with trauma to the head from gunshots, I knew that only a high velocity bullet from a rifle could dissect a cranium that way. Part of his brain, the cerebellum was dangling from the back of his head...

...From the damage I saw there was no doubt in my mind that the bullet had entered his head through the front, and as it surgically passed through his cranium the missle obliterated part of the temporal and all the parietal and occipital lobes before it lacerated the cerebellum...

The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wouinds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."

 

[Robert Prey]

They didn't get them together to plan the conspiracy / coverup, or they didn't get they to stay silent, Robert?

If the former, how'd they plan it across so many agencies?

If the latter, which of these people below have *confessed* to being involved in a conspiracy / coverup, Robert?

Oswald talked to his cell mate. Ruby talked to the cameras. Sam Giancana talked to his brother. Frank Fiorini (Sturgis) talked. Marita Lorenz gave sworn testimony. And then there is the deathbed confession of E. Howard Hunt.

 

[Robert Prey]

Hi Robert,

The reason is well known. Earl Warren himself said the intent was to publish everything the Warren Commissioners saw, and he felt if they saw the autopsy photos, they should publish them. They felt they were too gory to publish, so Warren made the decision not to have the Commissioners view them.

They also felt the testimony of the autopsy doctors - as the experts - would be more than sufficient, since, as laymen, the commissioners would have to get the photos interpreted for them in any case.

Hank

So, they chose to cover up evidence of the Crime of the Century based on what? Their feelings? To most of the Am. People, that excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Tomtomkent]

No Secret Service agent was shot in the line of duty that day in Dallas (or even while off-duty).

Governor Connally was the only other person in the car wounded. James Tague, a bystander, was nicked on the cheek by a fragment of concrete or a piece of bullet after it had struck a curb during the shooting.

Those three men are the only three people in Dealey Plaza to have been wounded by gunfire that day.

Dallas Police Officer J.D.Tippit was shot and killed within about 45 minutes of the assassination a few miles from the assassination scene and about .85 miles from Oswald's roominghouse, where he had been about fifteen minutes before to pick up his revolver. The evidence in that Tippit case clearly points to Oswald as the shooter. Tippit was shot in the head execution-style as he died on the street after being shot several times in the body. Some conspiracy folks claim Tippit bore a resemblance to JFK. Goggle J.D.Tippit to see some images.

Tippit's autopsy was in Dallas at Parkland Hospital, JFK's in Bethesda in Washington D.C. Not sure how the autopsists could be confused looking at the wrong photos.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Thanks for pointing that out, but I did clarify I had been confusing half remembered sources and on digging them out it was Tippits photos that had been leaked as "JFK" supposedly showing a head injury from the front of the head exiting to the rear.

I think the confusion largely stemmed from CTers wanting to see a shot from the front so when they saw a body on an autopsy slab with a passing resemblance to JFK the usual "these are the real photos they dont want you to see" stories swam around. At that point in the conversation I was giving Robert the benefit of the doubt that he had at least got photos of a guy shot from the front.

Sourcing uncropped photos showed this to be my mistake. He did not.

Any other bloopers you see in my posts let me know.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Thanks. So, I take it you accept Crenshaw as a credible witness. But you have somehow seen to omit certain assertions:

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence" by Charles A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Had I been allowed to testify, I would have told them that there is no doubt in my mind that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll area...

...The entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing...

...based on my experience with trauma to the head from gunshots, I knew that only a high velocity bullet from a rifle could dissect a cranium that way. Part of his brain, the cerebellum was dangling from the back of his head...

...From the damage I saw there was no doubt in my mind that the bullet had entered his head through the front, and as it surgically passed through his cranium the missle obliterated part of the temporal and all the parietal and occipital lobes before it lacerated the cerebellum...

The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wouinds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."

So given such inconsistent descriptions, why should we assume that there was an exit wound at the back of the head, and disregard the others?

Why do you claim those that match the Z Film and autopsy are the wrong ones?

Were you "Mistaken or lying" when claiming that none of the witnesses had changed their stories? Given that you have just had several changes quoted to you?

 

[Tomtomkent]

So, they chose to cover up evidence of the Crime of the Century based on what? Their feelings? To most of the Am. People, that excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

Why are you claiming it was a cover up? You are arguing about the manner in which the eveidence was presented, what evidence do you have that "Cover up" was the motive over "matter of taste"?

 

[HSienzant]

How interesting. And now for the benefit of one who has actually done some serous homework on the subject, what was the one single piece of evidence that convinced you to change your mind. This is a question the Lone Nutters on this board have great difficulty with. Perhaps you can enlighten. Evidence, mind you. Not generalized minutia, hyperbole or ad hominem attack which seems to be the standard Lone Nutter tac.

No one piece of evidence for me. But I can tell you what it was for myself, and then for my brother (who fell into conspiracy land after I was already off the wagon.

For me it was purchasing a copy of the 26 WC volumes of evidence. You see, I believed all the conspiracy books, and felt they were overlooking something key that could solve the assassination. So I bought the books and read through the testimony and found ... the conspiracy books had misrepresented *everything*. Every thing was taken out of context to make it seem more ominous than it was. That was what convinced me the conspiracy books I was reading weren't given me the truth.

My brother and I, years later, had a series of correspondence on the JFK assassination back and fourth (by mail - this was years ago). He later told me what convinced him the books were BS was a passage I refuted about the found jacket near the Tippit shooting scene. Critics claim this was not Oswald's jacket for a variety of reasons. Jim Marrs (I think it was) made the point that the jacket was sold exclusively in California (as determined by the FBI) and "Oswald was never in California as a civilian". I pointed out that Oswald was stationed in California as a Marine, and when soldiers get leave, they often dress in civilian clothes. Thus, Oswald could have purchased the jacket (new or second-hand) in California, and the author he was relying on to give it to him straight was guilty of withholding material evidence.

For your homework, I recommend you actually read the Warren Commission volumes of evidence. They are all online now, so you don't have to shell out the $2000 or so I spent at The President's Box Bookshop to purchase a set in 1982 or so. You also don't have an excuse not to have read this material.

So read it already and then get back to me with what you think.

 

[HSienzant]

Thanks. So, I take it you accept Crenshaw as a credible witness. But you have somehow seen to omit certain assertions:

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence" by Charles A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Had I been allowed to testify, I would have told them that there is no doubt in my mind that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll area...

...The entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing...

...based on my experience with trauma to the head from gunshots, I knew that only a high velocity bullet from a rifle could dissect a cranium that way. Part of his brain, the cerebellum was dangling from the back of his head...

...From the damage I saw there was no doubt in my mind that the bullet had entered his head through the front, and as it surgically passed through his cranium the missle obliterated part of the temporal and all the parietal and occipital lobes before it lacerated the cerebellum...

The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wouinds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."

There was no need for me to quote that as you had already quoted it.

Now, Robert, you have different assertions by the same man from the same book. Once says JFK had a hole in the back of the head, caused by a shot from the front. Some others, which I quoted, and you failed to explain away, say the wound was on the right side of the head, and the most specific of which sounds exactly like the wound we see in the Zapruder film.

Pg 2: "The entire right hemisphere of President Kennedy's brain was obliterated. . . . "
Pg 78: "Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."
Pg 86: "His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater, an empty cavity."
Pg 87: (Quoting Kemp Clark): "My God, the whole right side of his head is shot off... We've got nothing to work with."
Pg 89: "... there is still nothing that can save a victim who loses the entire right side of his brain."

Now, I ask you, how did *you* decide which of Crenshaw's descriptions were valid?

Can you just answer that simple question?

Thanks much!

Hank

 

[Robert Prey]

There was no need for me to quote that as you had already quoted it.

Now, Robert, you have different assertions by the same man from the same book. Once says JFK had a hole in the back of the head, caused by a shot from the front. Some others, which I quoted, and you failed to explain away, say the wound was on the right side of the head, and the most specific of which sounds exactly like the wound we see in the Zapruder film.

Pg 2: "The entire right hemisphere of President Kennedy's brain was obliterated. . . . "
Pg 78: "Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."
Pg 86: "His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater, an empty cavity."
Pg 87: (Quoting Kemp Clark): "My God, the whole right side of his head is shot off... We've got nothing to work with."
Pg 89: "... there is still nothing that can save a victim who loses the entire right side of his brain."

Now, I ask you, how did *you* decide which of Crenshaw's descriptions were valid?

Can you just answer that simple question?

Thanks much!

Hank

All of them. JFK's brains were blown out from front to back, including all of the lobes mentioned.

Paul O'Connor's drawing confirms:

 

[Robert Prey]

No one piece of evidence for me. But I can tell you what it was for myself, and then for my brother (who fell into conspiracy land after I was already off the wagon.

For me it was purchasing a copy of the 26 WC volumes of evidence. You see, I believed all the conspiracy books, and felt they were overlooking something key that could solve the assassination. So I bought the books and read through the testimony and found ... the conspiracy books had misrepresented *everything*. Every thing was taken out of context to make it seem more ominous than it was. That was what convinced me the conspiracy books I was reading weren't given me the truth.

My brother and I, years later, had a series of correspondence on the JFK assassination back and fourth (by mail - this was years ago). He later told me what convinced him the books were BS was a passage I refuted about the found jacket near the Tippit shooting scene. Critics claim this was not Oswald's jacket for a variety of reasons. Jim Marrs (I think it was) made the point that the jacket was sold exclusively in California (as determined by the FBI) and "Oswald was never in California as a civilian". I pointed out that Oswald was stationed in California as a Marine, and when soldiers get leave, they often dress in civilian clothes. Thus, Oswald could have purchased the jacket (new or second-hand) in California, and the author he was relying on to give it to him straight was guilty of withholding material evidence.

For your homework, I recommend you actually read the Warren Commission volumes of evidence. They are all online now, so you don't have to shell out the $2000 or so I spent at The President's Box Bookshop to purchase a set in 1982 or so. You also don't have an excuse not to have read this material.

So read it already and then get back to me with what you think.

So you got ripped off, eh? And all for 26 volumes of whitewash when all you really had to do was compare the observations of the 30 or so medical witnesses at Parkland. A mis-placed jacket at an un-related, but equally covered up Tippit murder scene is hardly reason to conclude that there was only one "nut" involved, even if Lee Harvey Oswald was his name, which may not be true at all, but irrelevant to the main question. One? or more than one?

The overwhelming evidence is more than one, Oswald's jacket and 26 volumes of whitewash notwithstanding.

 

[Robert Prey]

Why are you claiming it was a cover up? You are arguing about the manner in which the eveidence was presented, what evidence do you have that "Cover up" was the motive over "matter of taste"?

Warren Counsel Wesley Liebeler:
“Well, you know if we do find out that this is a conspiracy you know that we have orders from Chief Justice Warren to cover this thing up.”

http://www.ctka.net/pr996-odio.html

 

[EventHorizon]

You are a brave one, HSienzant. We all got sucked into this one before we knew that Robert is delusional, dishonest and brainwashed beyond hope. You already had a chance to read through the whole thread and you're still going to try. I wish you luck.

 

[Walter Ego]

Vote For Robert!

Robert's inanity is in the lead!

Robert is leading the November Stundie Finals with 48% of the vote. I think the votes are less for the nominated quote than for the totality of Robert's stundieness in the short time he's been posting on JREF. He dropped this gem just the other day.

Contrary to the headline, the Fox Business Network never called the Muppets communist. But they should have.

Voting is continuing to the end of this month. If you haven't voted yet, go here and vote for number 15, "Common sense is immune." Vote for Robert!

 

[Robrob]

I suspect "Robert Prey" is trolling JREF.

 

[Tomtomkent]

All of them. JFK's brains were blown out from front to back, including all of the lobes mentioned.

Paul O'Connor's drawing confirms:



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994eea722754e4e.jpg[/qimg]

The photographs confirm otherwise.

Look at the bolded statement again. Notice anything odd that contradicts your statement?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Also; why does that drawing differ so much from the one you posted before that showed the exit wound on the centre of the back of the head?

Which witness was "lying or mistaken" if they drew pictures so differently?