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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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A Captain on a prisoner detail? It never freaking ends. The freaking fabrications.

More argument from incredulity?

Feel free to explain what you find so incredible about a Captain being in charge of soldiers?

I didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun. I didn't refuse to accept the idea that if you're digging a pit into which you are planning to burn people alive, you might have one pit for babies and one pit for adults. I don't put those two actions in the same category of impossible as I would something like walking on the sun. They're possible. What I refuse to accept and what I mocked derisively is the notion that these things are mundane.

If you have a difficult time with English, feel free to substitute any other adjective you wish for the "banality of evil."

I don't require direct experience with something in order to believe it is true. However if it were true that in my life I witnessed babies being used for target practice by drunk Ukrainians and Germans with machine guns as often as I see somebody asking another person for spare change, I would probably not quibble with somebody who said that using live babies for target practice is mundane.

Are you just parading your lack of vocabulary, or is that another argument from incredulity? If you acknowledge the above events are physically possible, why do the rest of your CT brethren deny it? Are you right and they wrong?

A defining feature of the Hoax is to cynically produce materials design to bolster the narrative that is being constructed. So Mr Caution quotes from the numerous diaries that miraculously survived the Vilna Ghetto.

So the existence of facts disproving your CT is evidence of a conspiracy? Allow me to introduce you to the Anthropic Principle.

Here is a supposed Bekanntmachung found at Yad Vashem that purports to relate to a massacre of several thousand Jews outside Vilna.

[qimg]http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5334/hingstproclamation.jpg[/qimg]

Here is a genuine, official Bekanntmachung of 9 days prior asking that all non-Jewish refugees register with police.

[qimg]http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2152/nr19q.jpg[/qimg]

Even an avid Maus devotee like yourself should have to trouble determining which is the genuine official proclamation and which is the hasty post war falsification.

I hope those pictures are big enough for you.

1) Do you have any actual evidence to support these claims, other than your unsubstantiated opinion?

2) Do you have anything other than that unsubstantiated opinion that explains why German Bekanntmachung (public announcements) must always be in identical matching typeset?

3) What are the odds, if something that didn't agree with your fantasy was in perfectly matching typeset - you'd call that evidence of fraud and conspiracy?
 
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Perhaps you are using some private definition of mundane?

It helps discussion if we all use words the same way.

Here, let me help: "of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven"

Which of these qualities do you submit as not being true, since you "didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun"?
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There were never any babies thrown in the air and shot with machine guns by German soldiers.

Mr. Terry, do you believe babies were thrown in the air and shot with machine guns by German soldiers.
 
Clayton, would you agree or disagree that there were atrocities committed by the Japanese against the Chinese in the 1937 to 1945 war?

Would you agree that the Japanese bayoneted American POWs during the 1941 to 1945 war?
 
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Perhaps you are using some private definition of mundane?

It helps discussion if we all use words the same way.

Here, let me help: "of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven"

Which of these qualities do you submit as not being true, since you "didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun"?
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That's one definition. One that nobody uses. Another definition is common, ordinary, banal unimaginative. It's that definition that is top of mind for most people. Robrob was saying that flaming baby pits and live baby target practice are common ordinary occurances. I say they aren't.

Would you say that an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed Palestinian child is a mundane occurance in the occupied territories? Because that has happened before and it didn't happen in heaven.
 
That would be considered a work detail therefore a NCO would be in charge.
I am not sure I understand this remark. Since the incident described doesn't concern a "work detail," and since the source (it is the supposedly obscure Sakowicz, a Polish journalist, describing a liquidation action, one of many he witnessed at Ponar) describes how such actions were carried out at the site, this speculation is, well, nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking.

Most likely, the shooters themselves were the so-called Shaulists or Lithuanian riflemen, under command of the Gestapo. The event described is the Yellow Pass action, in which ghetto Jews without yellow passes were rounded up and taken to Ponar for execution. There is other documentation of the roundups - e.g., the diary of Y. Rudashevski. Jaeger's report gave 1766 "Jewesses" and 812 children exterminated at Vilna on 25 October, meshing with Sakowicz's observation that those led to the execution site that day were "exclusively of women - old and young, children in carriages, suckling babies."
 
1) Do you have any actual evidence to support these claims, other than your unsubstantiated opinion?

2) Do you have anything other than that unsubstantiated opinion that explains why German Bekanntmachung (public announcements) must always be in identical matching typeset?

3) What are the odds, if something that didn't agree with your fantasy was in perfectly matching typeset - you'd call that evidence of fraud and conspiracy?
Not to mention LGR's continued reluctance to provide references. Given his long history of dishonesty and games with sources, this is not surprising.
 
effete: Affected, overrefined, and ineffectual: "effete trendies from art college". No longer capable of effective action.

Nobody interested in explaining how German cultural behavior, being almost effete, operated with regard to the Night of the Long Knives and Kristallnacht?
 
While we wait (as we often must, patiently) for LGR's sources, let us take note of some odd points about his post claiming obvious fabrication of the Hingst order of 1 September 1941:

- the Hingst order did not purport to relate to a murder of several thousand Jews outside Ponar - the statement on the order was of collective Jewish responsibility for the so-called shooting incident the previous day and a curfew for Vilna's Jews - it is only other documentation, testimony, etc that link the order to the extermination action at Ponar that followed (the order is noted, by the way, in both Kruk's journal and Sakowicz's diary, and the action that followed is the one which Pesye Schloss and Yudis Trojak survived)

- the two documents appear to have been issued by different authorities - Hingst was the German-installed commissioner for Vilna (Gebeitskommissar for the city under German occupation, installed in late July 1941), while Dabulevicius was Lithuanian mayor of Vilna - LGR did not make this difference, that these orders appear to have been issued under 2 different authorities, clear in his post nor did he explain why we should expect a city order issued by the Lithuanians to match a German order issued by the German civil administration

- the Lithuanian announcement appears to have been one in a numbered series of regular bureaucratic orders while the Hingst order is made to appear ad hoc, for the purpose of combating the so-called provocation, presented as an unexpected incident - again, it is a mystery to me, at least, why these two very different kinds of orders issued by two different authorities should form an identical pair - LGR's suggestive post ignores these realities, to put it mildly

- there is no logic to LGR's argument that a postwar fabrication would be hasty - he hasn't begun to explain the context driving for such a fabrication or its need to be done in haste - nor has he, after so many months, begun to undertake making the positive case (names, dates, actions, locations, etc) for the infamous Moscow Forgery Factory that seems to exist in his bountiful imagination

One thing there should be no trouble at all discerning in LGR's post is its mendacity. I hope that this is little picture enough for him and his games.
 
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A big picture includes sources LGR - which you haven't supplied. A Big Picture might possibly consist of a 2000 word summary of Krematorium denial and honestly submitted for peer review, which you also haven't supplied. Vilna is now the key? I thought it was seriously, "the bakeries" and those other, "truly appalling revelations." Have you blogged this one yet?

Your wearisome fellow traveller in this, Saggy actually claimed that he was here to show a Big Picture. LOL.

In my reading here and elsewhere - not one of you Holocaust deniers has managed to explain how this hoax was achieved.

That's the sort of Big Picture, required - the one we are all on this thread to be enlightened with by the gracious presence of Internet Holocaust deniers who know more than us laypeople and Historians and academics who specialise in the subject. That set against some people who read Arthur Butz, belong to codoh forum and (usually) don't like Jews.

Hey ho. And what do we get when LGR has his big chance to explain how the hoax was won with his Big Picture? Well not one but two pictures, although no real explanation, as usual. Oh and a side-sweep at me and Spiegelmann

Another wasted opportunity to educate the World and supply the requested sources passes LGR by.
 
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Hey ho. And what do we get when LGR has his big chance to explain how the hoax was won with his Big Picture? Well not one but two pictures, although no real explanation, as usual. Oh and a side-sweep at me and Spiegelmann

Another wasted opportunity to educate the World and supply the requested sources passes LGR by.
Of course no references, as these would enable everyone to see what LGR is working with. And no explanation either - the fabrication net spreads wider and wider, I assume - of how a post-war fabrication, LGR claims, wound up commented upon by two contemporaries, writing independently during the war!
 
Well at least the latest hoax survivor doesn't have any absurd tales to tell about the Nazis, he tells how they exterminated the Jews with showers that were simultaneously hot and cold, nothing absurd about that ....

"They sent us into showers with a strong flow of water, which was partly boiling and partly frozen. The flow and the temperature were so strong that some of the people died on the spot."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4158899,00.html

Maybe he's the most credible Jewish eyewitness.

Wait a minute, hot and cold ?
 
If you had anyone that loved you and lived with you, I'd suggest you hop into the shower and then ask them to flush the nearest toilet.
 
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