Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

[Lord Emsworth]

Anyone care to give a materialist explanation of why she turned her head and on doing so looked straight at me rather than just looking in my general direction and then homing in on my face?

What is your explanation? [/rhetorical question]

 

[The Norseman]

Yes yes chance and imagination, case solved.

I know better than to challenge your position on such things

Yes yes God and psi, case solved.

I know better than to challenge your position on such things

They were dumbfounded by the remarkable chance or coincidence involved. I am not attaching significance, they did.

No, sorry. You're the one attaching significance to it and it's obvious that you're doing so.

 

[The Norseman]

It does, but it isn't saying what you think you're hearing.

Why did the woman turn around?
Because she heard your vehicle.
If it were me walking, I would also turn and look when I heard your vehicle.

Why did she smile? There is no way to know, short of asking her.
I have done this, thinking I recognized the vehicle, and then realizing it wasn't my friend.
I have also done it to let the stranger following me know that I have seen him, I can now recognize and describe him, and I am not afraid of him.

Women are often taught such disarming devices, to use while walking alone.

You took an ordinary and totally explicable "event" and you alone made something momentous from it. I feel embarrassed for you.

Somehow, I'm reminded of this...

'Did you see that?? Heather Number One just looked right at me!'

 

[punshhh]

It does, but it isn't saying what you think you're hearing.



Why did the woman turn around?
Because she heard your vehicle.
If it were me walking, I would also turn and look when I heard your vehicle.

Why did she smile? There is no way to know, short of asking her.
I have done this, thinking I recognized the vehicle, and then realizing it wasn't my friend.
I have also done it to let the stranger following me know that I have seen him, I can now recognize and describe him, and I am not afraid of him.

Women are often taught such disarming devices, to use while walking alone.

You took an ordinary and totally explicable "event" and you alone made something momentous from it. I feel embarrassed for you.

I was in a line of traffic moving at about 20mph. I wonder what impulse caused her to turn at that exact moment.

It seems that the only explanation for such occurrences from the materialist perspective is that it was a chance or coincidence. There are various human behaviors which suggest that there is some kind of interaction between people which is not known to science, this is one example.

I have not made it into a momentous event, why have you concluded this?

 

[punshhh]

punshhh, is this a common practice for you? Do you go through every day attaching special significance to everything?

I don't attach special significance to anything, I am an observant person and I don't just accept my conditioning as reality even when it is normal.

 

[punshhh]

No, sorry. You're the one attaching significance to it and it's obvious that you're doing so.

If I were maybe I would have mentioned it on the day it happened. I explained it was the atheists I was with who blew it out of proportion.

 

[laca]

I was in a line of traffic moving at about 20mph. I wonder what impulse caused her to turn at that exact moment.

It seems that the only explanation for such occurrences from the materialist perspective is that it was a chance or coincidence. There are various human behaviors which suggest that there is some kind of interaction between people which is not known to science, this is one example.
I have not made it into a momentous event, why have you concluded this?

That is why. Along with the fact that you brought it up like it meant something and all the mystical crap you keep trying to ram down everyone's throat. This coward non-stance you're trying to adopt is getting ridiculous. You must know deep down you have absolutely no argument to make. That must be the reason you're trying to avoid taking a stance, like an honest man would do. The problem is your words betray you.

 

[dafydd]

...wait...me? Or him?

Him. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[dafydd]

I was in a line of traffic moving at about 20mph. I wonder what impulse caused her to turn at that exact moment.

It seems that the only explanation for such occurrences from the materialist perspective is that it was a chance or coincidence. There are various human behaviors which suggest that there is some kind of interaction between people which is not known to science, this is one example.

I have not made it into a momentous event, why have you concluded this?

Why do you tell us the story? Suggests it to you. Evidence?

 

[dafydd]

That is why. Along with the fact that you brought it up like it meant something and all the mystical crap you keep trying to ram down everyone's throat. This coward non-stance you're trying to adopt is getting ridiculous. You must know deep down you have absolutely no argument to make. That must be the reason you're trying to avoid taking a stance, like an honest man would do. The problem is your words betray you.

It must be a mystic thing not to have a point of view or an argument to make. All we ever get from punshhh is 'Let's pretend'. We have all grown up.

 

[The Norseman]

I was in a line of traffic moving at about 20mph. I wonder what impulse caused her to turn at that exact moment.

It seems that the only explanation for such occurrences from the materialist perspective is that it was a chance or coincidence. There are various human behaviors which suggest that there is some kind of interaction between people which is not known to science, this is one example.

I have not made it into a momentous event, why have you concluded this?

Because you have seemingly memorized this story and use it as evidence that what you believe is correct. I cannot count how many times similar situations have happened in my life. Why can't I count them? Because they are so mundane that I quickly forget them. If it was so meaningless, I'd think the same would happen to you, but as always, I could be wrong.

If I were maybe I would have mentioned it on the day it happened. I explained it was the atheists I was with who blew it out of proportion.

Ah. Well, 'atheist' does not always equal 'skeptic' by any stretch. There are still avowed atheists who are wooed into believing in traditional chinese medicine, Alcoholics Anonymous, acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, and so on. These other people could very well have been on their way to a crystal-healing convention. Who knows?

Besides, I now think you're pulling a subtle bait-and-switch in conflating 'skeptic' with 'atheist' in this scenario. Also, as has been pointed out to you many times since you joined JREF, there is really nothing anyone can say about the situations in your past as none of us were there in the first place to help make a determination of what actually happened. We can present guesses and estimates and hypotheses, but that's just dismissed by you and Limbo and the other mystics/God-seekers.

 

[dafydd]

Besides, I now think you're pulling a subtle bait-and-switch in conflating 'skeptic' with 'atheist' in this scenario. Also, as has been pointed out to you many times since you joined JREF, there is really nothing anyone can say about the situations in your past as none of us were there in the first place to help make a determination of what actually happened. We can present guesses and estimates and hypotheses, but that's just dismissed by you and Limbo and the other mystics/God-seekers.

Very well put. Whether punshhh will understand it is a moot point.

 

[Complexity]

I was in a line of traffic moving at about 20mph. I wonder what impulse caused her to turn at that exact moment.

It seems that the only explanation for such occurrences from the materialist perspective is that it was a chance or coincidence. There are various human behaviors which suggest that there is some kind of interaction between people which is not known to science, this is one example.

I have not made it into a momentous event, why have you concluded this?

Do you have any idea how often I've looked at clock and seen that it was 11:11? At least 20 times in the past few years.

Are these coincidences that do not have a material explanation? Does this make me special?

Of course not.

I remember these events (all digits being the same) because they are more memorable than 12:37 or 8:51.

I have probably seen the clock read 8:51 as often as I have seen it read 11:11, but I don't remember ever having done so.

I remember them because they are more memorable to me.

That is all.

You are not the center of the universe.

 

[dafydd]

Do you have any idea how often I've looked at clock and seen that it was 11:11? At least 20 times in the past few years.

Are these coincidences that do not have a material explanation? Does this make me special?

Of course not.

I remember these events (all digits being the same) because they are more memorable than 12:37 or 8:51.

I have probably seen the clock read 8:51 as often as I have seen it read 11:11, but I don't remember ever having done so.

I remember them because they are more memorable to me.

That is all.

You are not the center of the universe.

Of course not. He is broadcasting from behind the event horizon of the formless.

 

[Complexity]

Of course not. He is broadcasting from behind the event horizon of the formless.

This reminds me of the episode when Beverly Crusher was inside a shrinking bubbleverse and people kept disappearing:

"Either there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with the universe."

(or words to that effect)

Dr. Crusher was correct to conclude that something was wrong with the universe.

punshhh should arrive at the other conclusion.

 

[punshhh]

We are creatures and we are made of some substance. If there is one substance, then we are determined by the rules that govern that one substance. Determinism is a necessary component of any monism. God thinking reality would produce the same effect from our perspective as no-God vibrating strings bouncing around. Our seeing vibrating strings of energy bouncing would simply be our model of what occurs through god's thinking to create reality if idealism were true.

We must end up with exactly the same perspective on philosophical quandries -- human free will, etc. -- with idealism as with any monism. There is no free lunch. We cannot derive magic out of idealism any more than we could out of neutral monism or materialism. The reason behind this is because what we call mechanism is just the means of interaction of the single substance, whatever its ultimate nature. It has to look exactly the same to us no matter what it actually *is*.

Every attempt to appeal to 'magic' (a fundamentally unexplainable interaction, such as a true miracle) means that two substances are entertained. So, for instance, if we wanted to appeal to libertarian human free will in idealism, that would require some form of different substance than God's mind or we would see an entirely different type of world. If the original substance is god's mind and everything else is action within god's mind (reality) it necessarily follows that god's thoughts function in exactly the same way that material substance function. Determinism necessarily holds. Belief that every individual is a truly independently free entity not determined by whatever substance comprises them, requires another type of substance or God's mind in us. Granted it's easy to confuse the two because we call both 'thought', but they can't be the same thing. God's thoughts produce what we call reality. If we have independent free will, like many idealist's view god to have, then there is a part of us that is not the action of god's thoughts, but actually is the mind substance that does the thinking. If that were the case, then we would also create reality; but we don't do that. When we think, we think, and that is it. It also makes no sense to speak of God communicating with 'us' because that would simply be god talking to himself; actually it would be more like us speaking to the 14,369th cell to the left the edge of my big toe. There is also no way to have separate god substance/mind interact with an action of the original mind, so the whole attempt to put free will in humans doesn't make any sense anyway.

So, there is no way to get libertarian free will out of idealism (in humans) just as we can't find it in materialism. We also cannot derive truly independent creatures out of idealism, creatures that god would talk to in a way that he was not simply talking to himself. The only way to derive an independent creature is to posit a second substance.

No a second substance is not required, all that is required is that the substance/s we are aware of are constructs. ie the dualism entertained in spirituality and the like is illusory or a limited construct(an aspect of manifestation). As I stated in my first post to you.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

I find it amusing that people are unwilling to accept such a mundane occurrence as two people catching each others eye on a street but will happily accept the preposterous idea of God without a 2nd thought. Think that speaks volumes.

 

[punshhh]

Because you have seemingly memorized this story and use it as evidence that what you believe is correct. I cannot count how many times similar situations have happened in my life. Why can't I count them? Because they are so mundane that I quickly forget them. If it was so meaningless, I'd think the same would happen to you, but as always, I could be wrong.

It was merely an observation.

Saying something is mundane is little more than sweeping it under the carpet.

Besides, I now think you're pulling a subtle bait-and-switch in conflating 'skeptic' with 'atheist' in this scenario. Also, as has been pointed out to you many times since you joined JREF, there is really nothing anyone can say about the situations in your past as none of us were there in the first place to help make a determination of what actually happened. We can present guesses and estimates and hypotheses, but that's just dismissed by you and Limbo and the other mystics/God-seekers.

The so called bait switch is not the case. I only accentuated that to illustrate the way in which the debunking mentality works on this site.

Many times? I have only briefly mentioned this subject twice in a year of posting.

Evidence? it is clear that it is impossible to provide evidence on this forum unless it is a reference to a scientific paper.

 

[punshhh]

I find it amusing that people are unwilling to accept such a mundane occurrence as two people catching each others eye on a street but will happily accept the preposterous idea of God without a 2nd thought. Think that speaks volumes.

Perhaps you will no provide your explanation for the non existence of gods?

 

[gambling_cruiser]

Gods are made up by humans just like santa claus or the easter bunny.
Do you need a detailed explanation why the tooth fairy doesn't exist?