Skeptics and Santa Claus

[Ethan Thane Athen]

No, I didn't miss it. As I said, our reply was always: "What do you think?" We tried to encourage them to look at the subject logically and reach their own conclusion.

Since I haven't woken up to find any of the eight kids standing over me with an icepick, screaming "You lied to me about Santa!", then I guess we succeeded in our encouragement. None of them ever seemed traumatized over the subject. I doubt that they ever gave it that much importance.

Apologies, you did indeed say that. I asked the question badly. I was more assuming they didn't leave it there and at some stage would ask you outright what you thought or otherwise force the issue by saying (in a questioning way, looking for confirmation) that they don't think he's real. I assume you then confirmed that to be the case? Or did you keep it going because they still had some doubt? Anyway, it's actively saying 'Yes he's real' (ie lieing in response to a direct question or actively promoting the reality of Santa) that is the point of discussion here - your approach seems a particularly valid one if I'm reading it right. Not that you need my approval of course - damn it's hard to write these things without sounding sanctimonious or that your suggesting someone's done something 'wrong'!

Oh and as for the icepick comment, why do the Santa Claus proponents assume those of us who don't perpetuate the 'charming myth' / 'lie' are suggesting it's a terrible thing and basically painting an 'ad absurdum' argument? All I can see from this thread is people reasonably stating that they think, on balance it's not the right thing to do so they choose not to, but no huge harm done. Whilst not my choice, I'm completely unbothered that other people do it. I'm cool with it, I was just answering the question.

I hope my own story, given in reply to the question basically 'What's the harm' also made clear I didn't think it was a particularly big deal but just illustrated some reasons why it may be better not to do so.

My perception is that proponents seem to be getting very defensive about this. Chill out, no one* here has suggested it's a terrible thing or told you not to do it. They've just explained why they, on balance, have decided against it.

*Ok, maybe one. But all cases can have their extreme (albeit potentially valid) examples and I'm sure there's some on the other side of the argument too.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Somehow this thread has devolved a bit from what the original poll was about. The question is whether you yourself would teach your kids about Santa Claus. I have always presumed that they would get a goodly dose of Santa from the ambient culture. Of course if you live in a treehouse in the Amazon or a walled compound in Kalispell Montana, the issue is different, but most of us live in the society that surrounds us. I (and my then wife) did not teach my kids about Santa, and as far as I recall they figured things out pretty quickly. I did not see any evidence that their capacity for fantasy was thus stunted either. They were fanciful, imaginative kids, and still are as adults.

This is not necessarily about "going after Santa," or warding off some horrible trauma because bad beliefs will make you a mass murderer. Let's get some perspective. I just don't think it's wise to teach kids beliefs you don't actually believe, and I don't think it's kind or respectful to them to lie if they ask you for the truth. You don't have to chase them around with it or bludgeon them with it, but in a world that's confusing and hard to sort out, I think some kids at least would prefer to have someone they can trust not to give them the runaround. I didn't teach my kids about the immaculate conception or the angel Moroni either, but not teaching things you don't believe is not the same as going on an idol-smashing spree or a cultural crusade.

edit to add: I am kind of surprised that in a forum so densely populated by atheists who are constantly having to articulate the distinction between not believing something and believing something else, so many don't seem to get it.

Excellent post - spot on.

 

[desertgal]

Apologies, you did indeed say that. I asked the question badly. I was more assuming they didn't leave it there and at some stage would ask you outright what you thought or otherwise force the issue by saying (in a questioning way, looking for confirmation) that they don't think he's real. I assume you then confirmed that to be the case? Or did you keep it going because they still had some doubt? Anyway, it's actively saying 'Yes he's real' (ie lieing in response to a direct question or actively promoting the reality of Santa) that is the point of discussion here - your approach seems a particularly valid one if I'm reading it right. Not that you need my approval of course - damn it's hard to write these things without sounding sanctimonious or that your suggesting someone's done something 'wrong'!

I don't remember the specifics with each kid-we raised eight-but, as I do remember, the "what do you think?" was followed with a little Q&A where they looked at certain things and we confirmed their thinking...i.e. "a man can't fit down the chimney" followed by "Yes, that's right." I don't remember that we kept the myth going beyond that-once we got to that point, the gig was pretty much up.

Kids are smart and instinctive creatures. In my experience, they generally know when a lie is harmful and when it isn't. When ours each came to their realization that Santa wasn't real, it was always followed-and I DO remember this-with "Does that mean I won't get any more presents?" The reality was that it didn't matter so much that Santa wasn't real, as long as they still got to have Christmas.

I don't know about "actively promoting the reality of Santa". We told them the story. We also told them the stories of Peter Pan, Goldilocks and the three bears, and the Wizard of Oz. Our oldest daughter believed Peter Rabbitt was real until she was old enough to decipher that it was just a story. Santa was the same. They deciphered that Santa was a story and got over it.

Oh and as for the icepick comment, why do the Santa Claus proponents assume those of us who don't perpetuate the 'charming myth' / 'lie' are suggesting it's a terrible thing and basically painting an 'ad absurdum' argument? All I can see from this thread is people reasonably stating that they think, on balance it's not the right thing to do so they choose not to, but no huge harm done. Whilst not my choice, I'm completely unbothered that other people do it. I'm cool with it, I was just answering the question.

Oh, I was just being jokingly melodramatic. I didn't mean to imply that others here have painted "ad absurdum" arguments. Similarly, I don't think it's a terrible thing to forgo the Santa myth.

 

[iknownothing]

I think the Santa story is stupid and annoying, so no, I'm not bothering with that with my kids. I was never taught to believe in Santa, so I don't have that emotional attachment.

Guess what: Christmas was always still great for me. My kids still love Christmas. Not just the presents, but also the rituals and anticipation. I don't see the need to add in some story about a creepy, hairy man lurking in the house in the middle of the night.

Believing that there is wonder and mystery in the world is important for children, however you get there. There is plenty of wonder and mystery in reality, but it is not that accessible to young children the way something like Santa Claus is.

Really? What kind of boring, unimaginative kids do you know who would be incapable of mystery without all the contrived Santa nonsense?

I let him watch Barney. Yes, Barney. There, I've said it. It's out. And it's allowed me to tell him over and over how cool it is to use your imagination.

What makes you think that non-Santa-pushers are anti-imagination? As if the only source of childhood fun and imagination is Santa.

Let 'em have the fantasy. Spiderman shoots webs out of his hands. He loves it. The Transformers have him thinking every yellow car he sees is Bumble Bee and can turn into a robot.

Do you go out of your way to plant evidence that Spiderman is real?

See, that's the difference with Santa. People can say all they want that they're "letting" the kids decide whether to believe...but they go out of their way to plant evidence that Santa is real.

It seems that everyone on the internet knows a guy who knows a guy whose sister or brother was traumatized by learning the truth about Santa. They're all in asylums now, of course, having become axe murderers at the age of 11.

That bugs me, when people get so sarcastic about the fact that it DOES hurt some people. My husband felt very betrayed by his parents. He felt he was lied to. Is he still suffering, or mentally ill? Of course not. But he remembers how he felt, as a child, and doesn't want his children to go through that same feeling. Go ahead and mock that all you want, but that attitude certainly doesn't add to the "Santa is such innocent happy fun" BS.

 

[caniswalensis]

I guess I am a little surprised that people get so passionate about this issue.

I have mostly very good memories of Christmases & the Santa Claus thing, but I understand how people could be hurt by it. Given the subjectivity of the spectum of personal experiences, I don't think they should be used to try to make a case one way or the other.

The reason I do not consider it contrary to skepticism is that there is no intention to make people believe in Santa for their entire life. Children are told he is real, but it is accepted that one day they will find the truth.

It may not be honest, but I don't know that the situation is serious enough to make that dishonesty unethical. I always considered the story of Santa to be a net benifit to children. Yes they are getting fooled, but it is a benevelent prank. Most people enjoy the prank, both before and after they are let in on it.

The subjectivity of this may be the only answer in the end. If parents are inclined to try to use the legend of Santa to enhance their kids Christmas fun they should think about it a little first. Does their kid seem like the type who might take it too hard when they find out the truth? Are the insecure in ways? then Santa may not be for them. Parents should also give some thought as to what to actually say about Santa, and how they will let the kid in on the prank when the time comes.

I think this thread demonstrates one thing: There is no one right answer to this question. Kids are people, and people are individuals that need to be treated as such. No parent should feel they have to do anything they are uncomfortable with either.

Marry Christmas to all and to all a good night, Canis

 

[JamesDillon]

The reason I do not consider it contrary to skepticism is that there is no intention to make people believe in Santa for their entire life. Children are told he is real, but it is accepted that one day they will find the truth.

The reason why this, and all similar arguments, strike me as special pleading is that I just can't imagine that the principles they assume would ever be accepted at a more general level. Why is it relevant that children will learn the truth eventually, after years of deception? How does that justify the act of deceiving them? How is it not inconsistent with skepticism to intentionally encourage false belief in a supernatural entity, and how does the additional fact that such belief will only last six or eight or ten years mitigate that deception in any way?

 

[caniswalensis]

The reason why this, and all similar arguments, strike me as special pleading is that I just can't imagine that the principles they assume would ever be accepted at a more general level. Why is it relevant that children will learn the truth eventually, after years of deception? How does that justify the act of deceiving them? How is it not inconsistent with skepticism to intentionally encourage false belief in a supernatural entity, and how does the additional fact that such belief will only last six or eight or ten years mitigate that deception in any way?

Yes, it is special pleading. That is kinda the whole point of my post.

It is all subjective. There is no denying that it is deception and encouraging false belief. There is also no denying that many people look back on that deception with great fondness. Like wise, many kids are hurt by it. it is immpossible to take those annecdotes and objectively say whether it is right or wrong to teach the Santa legend.

That's why I do not judge anyone for their stance on this.

It is at heart, a prank. A practical joke on the children. I do not see practical jokes as contrary to skepticism, even exceptionally long & drawn out ones. Moving my friend's car and letting him think it was stolen is deception, but I do not see it as unskeptical, it is outside the scope of skepticism. No parent intends for their children to believe in Santa in perpetuity. They fully intend to let them in on the prank when they are older.

I comprehend the vast difference in the time scale I am talking about, too.
it is a fair point, but here is the thing; Santa is not for everyone. He is however, for some people. I think everyone should do as they like, and not worry about it.

A thought does occur. We are blessed to live in an age of sweeping social & cultural change brought on by the digital age. Now, as a kid, I figured out on my own pretty early there was no Santa, but kept it to myself because our whole family really had a good time with it. These days however, kids are exposed to so much more information then back then. One quick google search might be all it takes to set the record straight.

First hit spills all the beans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

What I am saying is: Anti-Santa folk take heart, the question may soon be moot.

 

[angrysoba]

On the darker, more traumatic side of the Santa tradition, here is a 100% true story...

One shopping center in our town used to really do up the Santa visit in a big way. Every year for as far back as I can remember, they would make a big deal out of his official arrival to meet the children of our town. The always had some special conveyance for him. Somtimes a firetruck, but then they started having him land in the parking lot by helicoptor. The kids went wild for it.

Who can blame them? I am sure it was exciting, and the closest thing to a real flying sled you could imagine.

It was a very popular event, until the last year that they used a helicoptor. that was the year the helicoptor hit some power lines & crashed, killing both the pilot and the unfortunate St. Nick in front of hundreds of children.

It is hard to describe the reaction of our town with just a few words in a forum. To say people were very upset by the whole incident does not do it justice. The whole town mouned. Many of the children reported required counseling after witnessing the crash. It even made national news.

This story does not really touch on the topic at hand, but the thing about that dad telling his daughter Santa had a heart attack reminded me of it, and I felt like telling it.

Can you imagine it? For kids watching, just before christmas time, it was like watching a space shuttle disaster or something. No wonder they needed help afterward.

That reminds me of a story (possibly an urban myth) that when Christmas started becoming popular here in Japan, the concept wasn't quite understood, and while there were "Santa's grottos" that shoppers could go into in the malls, they weren't greeted by a jolly old fellow handing out presents but a...crucified Santa!

 

[bruto]

I am not much of a fan of practical jokes, I guess, and if that's what one thinks one is doing, it's thin justification.

Different people and families approach this differently, obviously. I was talking with my wife again about this, and she filled it in a little. She grew up in Cuba, where presents came from the Three Kings, and a great deal of fuss was made over this. When they came to the US, she was about 7, and somehow or other, her parents apparently convinced her that it was too far for the Three Kings to travel now, so Santa Claus was the man of the hour. Now it seems a bit odd (especially since she's really very smart) that this could have worked, but several factors were at play. For one, she felt she'd been robbed already of a little childhood by revolution, displacement and poverty, and clung to it. In addition, she was brought up Catholic, and Catholics are trained to believe all sorts of unlikely nonsense. Finally, she was brought up, supposedly, to honor and expect the truth. Her mother once had told her that if she ever lied, she'd never be trusted again. Not surprisingly she expected reciprocity. So, what happens? One year when about 9 or so, she's happily expecting Santa, and two days before Christmas, her mother tells her "You're too old to believe in Santa Claus. It's not real." Now I'm sure that's pretty far over in the spectrum of "Santa trauma," but stuff like this does happen, and it really was rough on her at the time, although of course one of the positive unintended consequences was that it made her from then on a very dubious (and now long lapsed) Catholic! She never had much trust in the unverified from then on.

I on the other hand, never seem to have believed in Santa, and this did me no harm, nor did it numb me to the joys and pleasures of Christmas. If I did ever believe, it was over by the age of three, and never missed. We always knew where our presents came from, and I appreciated my parents' honesty as well as their generosity. Yet this did not diminish by even one iota, as far as I know, my pleasure or my ability to indulge in fantasy. One of my favorite books as a small kid was Babar et le Pere Noel, which we'd gotten in France when I was just about 4 years old, in which we see the French version of Santa and his richly detailed world. As I recall, Babar treks to the north to convince Santa to come to the faraway land of the Elephants, and in return for the favor, he gets to vacation in the tropics. I had no more problem with le Pere Noel than I did with an anthropomorphic elephant who drives a car. I loved it, and pored over it for years. I enjoyed the fantasy without for even a moment believing that either Babar or Santa Claus would suddenly appear in my daily world.

Sorry folks, if you want your kids to have Santa, fine, but the idea that you have to lie to them to jumpstart their fantasy life is just....un gros ordure.