Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

The Germans aren't exactly spendthrifts. Why would they cut corners with Zyklon B? Probably because they knew they were going to use it in delousing chambers that were specifically designed to prevent gas from escaping instead of in a room that was accessible through an unsealed door.

So then clearly we'll find requisitions for Zyklon-B without indicator for all the other camps in which it was used.

Right?

 

[TSR]

I don't suppose you have any information about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas?

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Well, yes, it does exist:

Of course, it took .16 seconds googling the words "hcn fumigation buildings" and clicking the first link to find, so I understand your reluctance to go to the trouble yourself...


Denier "scholarship" in action...
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[Clayton Moore]

I didn't know that. So what?




The Germans aren't exactly spendthrifts. Why would they cut corners with Zyklon B? Probably because they knew they were going to use it in delousing chambers that were specifically designed to prevent gas from escaping instead of in a room that was accessible through an unsealed door. How does not having the warning agent make the product better for extermination?

And it was a pesticide, not a chemical warfare agent.

It was used world wide as a delousing agent. I strongly doubt if clothes were de Zyklon B ed. Only fools think Zyklon B was used to kill people.

 

[TSR]

It was used world wide as a delousing agent. I strongly doubt if clothes were de Zyklon B ed. Only fools think Zyklon B was used to kill people.

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Great! Then you can document how they saved money worldwide by omitting the warning agent.

While you're running that down, we'll sit here and wait while you show how an account of the history of the First United Methodist Church in Seattle proves that the Space Needle doesn't exist, by virtue of not mentioning the same...
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[Moss]

The Germans aren't exactly spendthrifts. Why would they cut corners with Zyklon B? Probably because they knew they were going to use it in delousing chambers that were specifically designed to prevent gas from escaping instead of in a room that was accessible through an unsealed door. How does not having the warning agent make the product better for extermination?

And it was a pesticide, not a chemical warfare agent.

Hydrogen cyanide was use as a chemical warfare agent in 1916 by the French army. Its use alone was discontinued because on contact with open air it disperses too quickly to be effective and because the Germans used improved filters in their gas masks. Though it has later been used in chemical warfare as a so called "Maskenbrecher", an agent to clog the mentioned filters so that the actual agent could work.
Why wouldn't they use hydrogen cyanide to kill people? The Kriminaltechnisches Institut der Sicherheitspolizeit experimented with other substances before in their murder experiments. A very effective adenosine triphosphate blocker isn't that far off.

 

[Multivac]

The Ghetto Slaughters in Stolin, Rubel, and David-Horodok through the eyes of a survivor 1

More garbage.

Where are the tens of thousands of testimonies?

Have you tried using a ouija board? People who have been slaughtered, whether in a ghetto or elsewhere, usually find it difficult to tell people what happened to them. This is probably becasue they are dead.

 

[Multivac]

Only fools think Zyklon B was not used to kill people.

You missed the word "not" from your post, so I fixed it for you.

 

[Gwynpaine]

Dr JAMES ROTH; his 10 micron sealant reaction

Some of the great and good have found better things to do than answer my letters, even supposing they read them. I don’t blame them. I myself automatically erase emails from strange sources. Here is an unheeded and perhaps unreceived letter I sent to Dr James Roth in 2007

Dear Dr Roth.

During the 1988 Zuendel trial, apparently, you allowed the possibility that HCN might penetrate damp and porous brickwork. But you also proposed as “possible” a sealant reaction that might prevent such a penetration. During the Errol Morris film interview you put it more strongly: it would “probably” penetrate no deeper than one tenth the width of a human hair. In his expert report Professor van Pelt takes you to mean something yet stronger than probable. “In other words, if one wants to analyze the cyanide concentration in a brick sample, one should take a representative sample of the surface, 10 microns thick, and no more.” If the sealant reaction was an established certainty, that does sound like the proper test. If it is merely a “probable” hypothesis then surely the correct way to test it would have been to take samples “the size of a thumb” and examine the surface and non-surface separately.

In extenuation of your concept Richard Green has assimilated it to graduated saturation. I am not sure I understand this. Throw a bucket of water on a mattress and the soaking will be wetter nearer to the surface. But that would hardly mean that the mattress was sealed. You do specify a very precise infinitesmal depth of 10 microns; thus far and no farther. Pulverising a sample from such a sealed wall would indeed be a dilution, not merely an averaging out. The Lipstadt trial judge treated this 10-micron hypothesis as scientific truth which had not been “controverted”, as did Evans in his popular book Telling Lies about Hitler. Yet the expert chemists Green and the Polish IFRC never seek to defend the core idea, even though it would have suited their purposes. David Irving did in fact “controvert” the claim, by posing the obvious and pertinent question. Why did the sealant reaction occur in the homicide chamber but not the Fumigation chamber? Justice Grey ignored this question, and the Errol Morris film was careful not to raise it - even though the whole discussion turns on the vast discrepancy between quantities of total cyanide residue in the two cases.

The massive presence of cyanide residue in the walls of the fumigation chamber was preceded by a massive presence of cyanide gas. To the lay mind, that looks like a clear of case of cause and effect. The clue is in the word “cyanide”. Most of these massive residues consist of “iron blue”, the stuff that can endure. The Polish IFRC refused to measure total cyanide, they say, because they could not imagine the “physico-chemical process” by which all this kind of iron cyanide might have got there. It might all have been a coincidence - an explanation involving blue paint was briefly hypothesised and then forgotten. I am glad that ships’ doctors of old did not wait for an understanding of underlying “physicochemical processes” before they assumed that citrus fruit might possibly prevent scurvy. On the other hand, to postulate the positive existence of 10micron surface reaction, you mighte be obliged to imagine some underlying physicochemical processes, since I have heard of no empirical evidence for such a cause and effect. Your imagining of such a process may be the only evidence in its favour. Have you published anything on this?

Yours etc
[Gwypaine]

Roth is just another timorous academic, nervous that Alpha Laborotories might seen to help an unabashed neo-Nazi like Zuendel. As to the Polish scientists, only if it were a prior certainty that HCN could never beget iron cyanide would the IFRC procedures have been justified. Otherwise the simple and honest thing would have been to measure total cyanide in both places and then to propose some banal and preferably testable explanation for the discrepancy. It is notable that the most “official” explanations for the discrepancy are the least credible – a 10 micron sealant reaction in one or both chambers plus a purely coincidental presence of blue pigmentation in the homicide chamber.


The ad hoc speculations of Amateur Night have been more plausible. I have heard several. The residues might have weathered away; the homicidal gas might have been not enough to leave traces, since it takes very little to kill a mammal; the bodies might have absorbed the cyanide; exhalations of carbon dioxide may have been counteractive; after the bodies were cleared the residues would have been hosed away. There are others .


The story to be tested is that on hundreds of occasions several kilos of Zyklon were released into a mortuary cellar which was quickly and thoroughly ventilated after less than half an hour. The dependent variable is the amount of residue. But the independent variables are many, some of them carrying opposite signs, with no obvious way of estimating their parameters. The fumigation chamber was much dryer; on the other hand the homicidal gassing sessions were much briefer. Given mortuary walls that were damp, porous and alkaline, Rudolf argued, then it was no more than highly probable that any residues would have far exceeded the minuscule amounts actually found; but that had as yet not been “rigorously” proved; the engineering and architectural arguments were stronger, and there is the question why there was any residue at all. It is therefore odd that Codoh should give Sticky pride of place to the Chemical Argument thread. Its initiator Astro3 has claimed that a statistical test on the massive descrepancy of the total cyanides has conclusively proved the Holocaust, but he does not really seem to understand what a t-statistic is.


Rudolf is an expert chemist, and in his chemical writings he gives a far better imitation of an honest man than do Roth, IFRC or Richard Green. But no more than they is he an impartial expert whose conclusions can be taken on trust. He has a nationalist agenda, thinking to lift a curse off Germany; and it might be personally difficult for him to give fair consideration to any evidence that would imply that he had wasted his life on an error. He has probably wasted his life any case, even if he is not in error. Even if there was no gas chamber program, nobody of consequence is now ever going to believe it. That Rudolf was put in gaol for some ineffectual writings will be of no concern to our resident colonising spammers who have rigorously proved that he is an “******” How do they think of these piquant and witty sallies?

 

[Wroclaw]

Was there a point to that?

Also, spot poll: How far did any of you actually read that?

 

[Border Reiver]

I was wondering if I was the only one.

If I understood that post he's wondering why no one has determined how far cyanide has penetrated the bricks of the gas chamber at Auschwitz

 

[TSR]

He has probably wasted his life any case, even if he is not in error.

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"If"? Even *he* was backed into a corner from which the only escape was to assert that "[C]hemistry is not the science which can prove or refute any allegations about the Holocaust 'rigorously'."

There is no "if" -- Muchos Nombres was handed his skinny white butt on chemistry, and ran like the Brave Aryan Warrior he is.
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[LSSBB]

Some of the great and good have found better things to do than answer my letters, even supposing they read them. I don’t blame them. I myself automatically erase emails from strange sources. Here is an unheeded and perhaps unreceived letter I sent to Dr James Roth in 2007

<Words>

How do they think of these piquant and witty sallies?

Summarized: Dr. James Roth of Alpha Analytical Laboratories said it is possible that Cyanide may not penetrate far into brick. Others disagree.

ETA: You can all go back to reading John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I imagine you don't know whose suggestion the reparations were in the first place, do you?

I'll tell you: Konrad Adenauer.

Now you probably aren't aware of who he was either. I'll give you a clue: He wasn't Jewish.

After the Hellish vampire Morgenthau I'm certain Adenauer thought reparations would protect the German people from liars and scum like Morgenthau.

 

[Saggy]

Even if there was no gas chamber program, nobody of consequence is now ever going to believe it.

Nobody believes the gas chamber hoax now. Even when I as a child first saw the photos from Belsen presented as victims of the holohoax I registered that something was wrong, as the bodies were emaciated and obviously had not been gassed.

The gas chamber hoax is preposterous, it is so absurd that not even Hollywood will attempt a 'realistic' reinactment as the mechanics are impossible.

Leutcher's, Rudolf's, Cole's work was necessary, but only as a formality. The hoax was obvious on its face.

 

[TSR]

If I understood that post he's wondering why no one has determined how far cyanide has penetrated the bricks of the gas chamber at Auschwitz

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Which (lack of) penetration Roth testified to in court. It is worth noting that Roth was accepted by that court as an expert witness, whereas Leuchter was not, after showing a resounding ignorance of the matter at hand...
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[Dogzilla]

The ad hoc speculations of Amateur Night have been more plausible. I have heard several. The residues might have weathered away; the homicidal gas might have been not enough to leave traces, since it takes very little to kill a mammal; the bodies might have absorbed the cyanide; exhalations of carbon dioxide may have been counteractive; after the bodies were cleared the residues would have been hosed away. There are others .

Indeed. RJ van Pelt told the Errol Morris audiences that the bricks from the gas chambers were carted away by locals to be used as building materials after the war. The original bricks from the gas chambers are scattered all over the polish countryside.

We don't hear that explanation very much any more.

 

[Dogzilla]

So then clearly we'll find requisitions for Zyklon-B without indicator for all the other camps in which it was used.

Right?

I suppose you might. What have you found?

 

[Dogzilla]

.
Well, yes, it does exist:

Of course, it took .16 seconds googling the words "hcn fumigation buildings" and clicking the first link to find, so I understand your reluctance to go to the trouble yourself...


Denier "scholarship" in action...
.

Perhaps you should read your link before you submit it. I repeat, I don't suppose you have any information about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas?

 

[Wroclaw]

I was wondering if I was the only one.

If I understood that post he's wondering why no one has determined how far cyanide has penetrated the bricks of the gas chamber at Auschwitz

Hasn't that been done three times already?

 

[Dogzilla]

I imagine you don't know whose suggestion the reparations were in the first place, do you?

I'll tell you: Konrad Adenauer.

Now you probably aren't aware of who he was either. I'll give you a clue: He wasn't Jewish.

I imagine you don't know who says from whom Konrad Adenauer was receiving pressure for reparations? I'll give you a clue: It wasn't not Jewish.