Wholly Natrualistic Alternative To Neo-Darwinism?

The principles involved such as gravity, chemistry, physics, etc,....all do indicate design. The issue is not whether there is a Designer. That's abundantly evident.

The issue is how the Designer acts, acted or continues to act, or not.

No, the fact that things behave in a certain way does not indicate that they were designed, that is another baseless assertion.

You do know that the basic level of the universe QM , behaves in a random fashion?
 
Define natural.

Is math natural, for example?

It is the behavior of what appears, math is a consequence of set theory.

And as an aside both materialism and immaterialism can not be distinguished from each other, naturalism does not care if we are dancing energy, butterfly dreams, BIVs or godthought. It is all the same, wonderful isn't it?
 
The issue is not whether there is a Designer. That's abundantly evident.
Give us the empirical evidence of the Designer, then. Don't just infer it from "everything" in reality. If it's abundantly evident, there should be evidence directly pointing to who, what, when and where it is.

The issue is how the Designer acts, acted or continues to act, or not.
Tell us how we can determine, empirically, how the Designer acts, acted or continues to act.



If you can't answer those questions, perhaps you can answer this one:

How can you claim Intelligent Design is a better scientific theory, if it must unavoidably resort to non-empirical entities.
 
Just how useful can Intelligent Design be, if after many, many pages of debate, its main arguments are reduced to this? "Everything is evidence of Design, but nothing is evidence of the Designer."


The Theory of Evolution might not be the be-all-end-all explanation of life (there is also abiogenesis, networking theories, memes, developmental considerations, etc.) But, at least it stays firmly in the empirical realm. At least it never, ever has to resort to "we'll just never know!" Evolution always gives us a pathway to specific scientific answers, even if we don't know what all of them are, yet. Experiments can be designed. We can find out.
 
(I thought I posted this response earlier. But, I don't see it. Let me know if a rouge copy pops up somewhere.)


I stand corrected on who made the discoveries.

But, they used some aspects of the ToE to do it, and they certainly did not use ID at all. And, that's the more important point.

Right but the other side of the coin is that Behe was/is a Biochemist who most certainly is apt in his field, though his crusade makes him a loon.

Even though he's an ID proponent, he's still a biochemist and his discoveries are NOT ID discoveries, they're biochemistry discoveries which get hijacked by the idea of Intelligent Design. IMO Evolutionary Biologists like Dawkins don't do this, particularly in The Selfish Gene which was an educational tool first, not an atheist manifesto, unlike Behe's Darwin's Black Box, which definitely was an ID manifesto* draped with Biochemistry understanding (but not facts, at least not fully described facts)

*More accurately it was an Irreducible Complexity manifesto. Wonder if ID hijacked IrrC or they just fell in love by the candlelight...
 
Last edited:
Even though he's an ID proponent, he's still a biochemist and his discoveries are NOT ID discoveries, they're biochemistry discoveries which get hijacked by the idea of Intelligent Design.
And, if anyone doubts that, they have to answer some questions:

"Okay, if it is an ID discovery, then where did the ID take action?"

"How do we know Design was intended? How do we know it wasn't a product of things going wild in the Designer's Dust Bin?"

"How come what you are describing does not seem to be a process of design, but rather a natural change in genetics over time?"

"What new, nitty gritty details can we unravel if we accept ID, that we would not have access to if we only accepted ToE?"

Any claim that a scientific discovery (biochemistry or otherwise) scores points for ID must have good answers to questions such as those.
 
catsmate, exactly where have I lied? The fraud was continually exposed for over 130 years, first in the 1800s from numerous scientists including the staunch opponent to Darwin and Haeckel, Louis Agassiz. This was put into a prominent book in 1910 published by Assimuth. It was a staple of creationist criticism ever since, the 20s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc,....

I am not the one lying here.

Why won't you acknowledge the truth?

And still is it seems.
 
ANTpogo at first claimed the drawings were not used in the 70s, 80s and 90s, and then had to admit they were but said they were used in the 90s but not 70s and 80s but I showed textbooks and quotes from evolutionists admitting they were. Fact is haeckel's faked drawings were widely used just as Miller and Levine admitted until the 1997 Richardson study and they were even used in the scientific literature according to them.

Is there really any excuse for that?

Some textbooks have continued to use haeckel's drawings and his mistaken ideas as well.

Also, the fact that some evos also admitted they were fakes and said so doesn't help your cause. It shows the tenacity with which evos cling to myth-making as a community.

In terms of early critics, most were opposed to Darwinism and would be classified as either creationists or ID theorists today.

Dead guys don't make great cheerleaders.
 
Hey hey hey Kotatsu, don't lump me in with you crazy scientist types. I may not know science but I know what I likes and Neo-Darwinianianism ain't it!

Right on! My granddad wern't no ape!! and don't go talkin' 'bout my mother, yes she was hairy and liked bananas but that's it!!
 
Following a brief discussion with another member, I looked up the papers of randman's idol Professor Emeritus John A. Davison. He's always a bundle of laughs in the way that he believed that when a critic of Darwin expresses an opinion on something, this is incontestable proof that this something is true, whereas when a non-critic of Darwin expressed an opinion on the same thing, he is blinded by ideology. Also: he believes that English names for morphological structures is a clue to homology and that maybe we should consider that God did it.

Anyway, looking through his New Essays, I came upon this wonderful insight into how Davison works:



Davison approaches this claim in his normal manner, by claiming that there are many different kinds of oil that are produced by metabolism in living organisms:



He adds some assertions which fit into his god-based worldview, but does not lower himself to actually back this up with any references:



He refers to unnamed and named purported experts in the field (1):



He then mentions, but does not refer to, some experiments:



Naturally, no analysis or even brief mention of how this experiment was carried out is mentioned, nor any detail whatsoever on where this experiment was published. He offers a challenge:



Without waiting for the response to his challenge, he declares victory:



He wouldn't be Davison if he didn't conclude with tying this to that hated Darwinism somehow:



And ends by quoting a famous scientist, because citations of opinions are more important than references to data:



Naturally without any reference to where this quote is from, but then again, no such reference is needed, for the very fact that Galileo is claimed to have said that -- and he may very well have done so -- is in itself evidence that Davison's analysis is correct, even if the quote as such is entirely irrelevant to the original claim.

It is important to keep in mind that the god-based front-loading ideas of Davison are all structured in the same way -- assertion, appeal to opinions of or quotes from old scientists taken out of context, declaration of victory -- and this is the explanation for the diversity of nature that randman prefers, because there is, according to him, just no evidence for evolutionary theory (= "mainstream evo practices").

Again, I can really recommend reading Davison. He's hilarious.

---
(1) Remarkably for a creat-- critic of mainstream evo practices, he is fully in support of a champion for something called "abiogenesis".
Hey, where's the kumquats?
 
So can any evolutionist explain how the hour-glass model would, if even true, be evidence for evolution, or are all of you going to continue to dodge the question?

Hour glass models look all sexy and make us want to mate causing evolution to happen.
 
So-called poor design lends more credence to ID as one would expect after millions, even billions of years, with a process in place to evolve and select for the most pragmatic designs, that we'd see better designs emerge from this process.

It's almost like God put the flaws there just to show us evo models are wrong....:)

If god has his thumb on the scales then all of the weights are wrong.
 
Maybe a false dichotomy, but for the life of me I can only think of two possible explanations for a statement such as this.

Explanation #1: randman is an obvious troll who's just playing us, or...

Explanation #2 : randman is so blinded by ideology/theism/whatever, that he can ignore about a century of quantum physics and how the universe really works.
Randman has repeatedly demonstrated he will ignore, hand wave, deny, misquote, distort or lie about anything if it can be made to support his ideologically filtered worldview.
 
Because we already know the truth. We've been through it in multiple threads, most of all Antpogo's thread which included the purchase of biology textbooks showing that your claim is utterly false.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203961

You are lying.
Indeed. There's not really any point in attempting to engage in reasoned discussion with someone so out of touch with reality and firmly entrenched in IDiocy. That's why I killfiled him.
 
Dinosaurs were "programmed" to disappear:

His rant against P. Z. Myers, whose name he couldn't manage to spell properly, was particularly good:


He also wants to reduce world population by 99%.:boggled:

I am amazed at how many of the worlds problems would go away if everyone would just agree with me.

How about them rutabagas!!
 
everything

What evidence do you have that your perceptions that the world around you are real?

Please provide definitive proof but you cannot use anything in the world around you to do that.

I actually believe there is clear specific evidence for God in details in the universe but suffice for this, you can't prove reality is real without assuming reality. Science STARTS with faith assumptions. So the proper thing to do is look at things with the assumption of a Designer and see if it works.

And guess what?

It does!

You say that the world is evidence of a designer then deny the reality of the world?
 

Back
Top Bottom